Running game is why the defense looks better

Frankly, it's difficult to even know where to begin in responding. You haven't told us why you've highlighted the stats you've highlighted, how you're interpreting the numbers or why they tend to the conclusion that defensive weakness is being covered up by our running the ball more.

The one statistic you've cited that seems relevant to the discussion is 1st downs allowed per play, where according to your numbers we rank 10th in the league. It would have been helpful for you to have provided last year's number so that we could in fact guage whether there has been any improvement. In any event, 10th seems pretty good: it suggests that we're limiting first down conversions and that the defense is therefore doing it's part in getting off the field and helping to win the TOP battle that you're giving the running game all of the credit for winning.

I draw this conclusion based upon the fact that, as a general rule (it gets a bit more complicated when you start factoring in turnovers), one wants to see fewer 1st downs per play: a defense that allows a first down on every play will have a first downs per play ratio of 1 (100% of the plays it faces are first downs) whereas as a defense that forces 3-and-out on every series will have a first downs per play ratio of .33 (33% of the plays it faces are first down). It follows, then, that defenses will have a 1st down per play ratio of .33 (perhaps slightly lower, to reflect that on occasion the defense will be out there for a 4th down) to 1, with defenses that are better at getting off of the field and therefore limiting the number of plays they face being closer to the bottom end of that range and defenses that are worse at getting off of the field and limiting the number of plays they face being closer to the top end of the range. You haven't given us the raw numbers, but it appears that the Cowboys' D is 10th closest in the NFL to the bottom end of the range, meaning it's 10th best in the NFL at getting off the field and limiting the number of plays it faces.

I'm not sure why you've looked at 3rd downs per play or what inferences you draw from that data. I guess the only thing I'd note is that, in contrast to first downs per play, one generally would prefer to see a higher ratio of 3rd downs per play than a lower one, since the fewer 3rd downs per play the better the opposing offense is at converting first downs without even having to get to 3rd down. Accordingly, I guess the one thing like I'd to confirm is: when you say we rank 19th in 3rd downs per play, does that mean we have the 19th fewest third downs per play or the 19th most 3rd downs per play. Unlike with 1st downs per play, if its the 19th most that's actually a good thing, since it ranks the D near the top third of the league. Here again it would be useful to compare this year's data to last year's.

Points allowed are best viewed on a per game basis. You haven't provided that data. Total points allowed would have been fine if the whole season had been played, but as it stands using total points allowed benefits teams that have played fewer games. There's no good reason I can think of to look at points allowed on a per play basis. In fact, doing so penalizes teams whose whole defensive philosophy is premised on limiting the number of plays the team faces on defense.

Which is also points to a fundamental problem with what you did at the end of your post. Taking our D's per play numbers and multiplying them by the number of plays that the Eagles defense has faced tells us absolutely nothing of value. All it does is strip away one of the basic strengths of our D (its ability to limit the number of plays it faces). Yeah, if our D was as bad as Philly's at getting off the field (actually, I can't even draw this conclusion since, notwithstanding that you purport to compare the two Ds, you don't provide the same metrics for the Eagles' D that you do for ours) our absolute numbers would be a lot worse. And if my uncle had **** he'd be my aunt.

In the end, you haven't told us how your data supports the conclusion that a bad D is being masked by a running game that is winning the TOP battle. Quite the contrary, the limited useful data you've provided seems to indicate that the defense is doing its part in getting off the field, limiting the number of plays it faces and winning the TOP battle.
 
Haha, well sure the running game is helping our defense

Buuuut, if you actually look at facts, we're giving up less points per drive, less yards per drive, less touchdowns in the redzone per drive, etc. etc. Our defense is actually playing significantly better in literally every aspect.

So, yeah. It's not really a debate.
 
There was some debate in another thread as to what the actual impact is of time of possession and controlling the clock thus limiting the number of plays the other offense has.

There was also some debate as to whether this defense is improved, and if so, that the improvement is more of a reason as to why we are top 10 in time of possession vs the offense controlling the clock.

So I looked at some stats, per play stats for the defense. Total yardage, points, first downs etc are really meaning less. You need to compare play to play.

But to really demonstrate this point I will list our rankings for Totals:
Total 1st Downs: 1
Total 3rd Downs: 6
Total Points: 10
Total Yards: 14

Looks awesome right? Pretty dominant, top 10 kind of defense. But not so fast.

We are also leading the league in Defensive Plays per game. (56.7) Let's see how we look at a play per play basis:
1st Downs per play:10
3rd Downs per play:19
Points per play:18
Yards per play:27

Not so hot anymore. Let's also throw in 18th for 3rd Down Conversion %. Do these numbers really support the idea that the defense is getting a lot of 3 and outs? Stopping the offense? And speaking of opposing offenses, aside from New Orleans and Seattle ( 7 and 8 respectively) the other 5 opponents are as follows:
NY: 15
San Fran: 21
St Louis: 23
Houston: 24
Tennessee: 29

Now let's compare our offense and defense to that of Philly, because Philly is a fast past offense and we will be playing them soon. Philly is ranked 31st in TOP, we are ranked 2nd. Philly is ranked 3rd in number of plays, we are ranked 7th. Philly averages 22.82 seconds per play (32nd), we average 30.80 (1st).

Philly's defense is also ranked 31st in Defensive Plays per game. 15.1 more plays per game than Dallas.

What would our defense look like from a Totals perspective if they had to be on the field 15.1 more plays a game?
Total 1st Downs: 25
Total 3rd Downs: 19
Total Points: 27
Total Yards: 32

Looks very much like last year.

What's saving us is that we are running the ball. We are #1 in the league in rushing attempts per game (33.6) That's up from only 21 attempts per game last year. We are up on number of offensive plays per game 65.9 compared to 59.8. We average 30.8 seconds per play, up from 29.11. We are controlling the ball 4 minutes and 40 seconds longer this year than last year.

So yes, the running game is helping the defense, very much in fact. And no, the defense is not really much better than last year and should still be a big concern, especially come playoff time.
:hammer::hammer::hammer:
 
12 less plays per game due to our running game and TOP makes a pretty big difference; the D has fewer chances to break and is fresher later in the game
 
12 less plays per game due to our running game and TOP makes a pretty big difference; the D has fewer chances to break and is fresher later in the game

Sure it does. But then you'd be ignoring how much we actually did improve on defense. We are playing better on that side of the ball, and it's not just because we're running the ball better. That is indisputable.
 
Defense held them down point wise only reason for the 3rd and 20 was because of the offense own miscues that put them in that situation. SF did torch us don't forget 1 fumble returned for a TD, Romo int returned to the 2 yard line and other turnover in the redzone none of that had anything to do with the play of the defense. Outside of that defense gave up 14 points.

St Louis was a poor game since then Austin Davis has shown he is a pretty decent QB but no doubt defense did not play well however Carter pick 6 was big in that game. Tenn came back as did the saints but again crtical moments the defense made key plays to shut the door. Last years group often failed shutting the door.

Ok,
Haha, well sure the running game is helping our defense

Buuuut, if you actually look at facts, we're giving up less points per drive, less yards per drive, less touchdowns in the redzone per drive, etc. etc. Our defense is actually playing significantly better in literally every aspect.

So, yeah. It's not really a debate.
I don't care about per drive. How many plays is a drive? 5, 10, 1, 20? I care about per play numbers. Compare apples to apples. 1 play = 1 play. Very simple.

And they are marginally better from last year on a per play basis.
 
Sure it does. But then you'd be ignoring how much we actually did improve on defense. We are playing better on that side of the ball, and it's not just because we're running the ball better. That is indisputable.

Yep.

The pass defense has tightened up.

Last season the defense gave up an opposing passer rating of 94.

This year they've gotten that down to an opposing passer rating of 88. THAT has nothing to do with a better running game. Just playing better pass defense.
 
This is a great topic but honestly it's strange given that this is a tried and true principle of football 101. It kind of annoys me that the media is picking us apart because of our dominant run game. Great defense/great run game typically go hand in hand. Give your D some rest ... move the chains. It's how football works. 3 phases.. ? Everyone wants to know if we're real. I just want to kill the skins right now honestly.
 
F
Sure it does. But then you'd be ignoring how much we actually did improve on defense. We are playing better on that side of the ball, and it's not just because we're running the ball better. That is indisputable.
frankly I think the defensive improvement is half our running game and TOP and half the D being better.
 
Ok,

I don't care about per drive. How many plays is a drive? 5, 10, 1, 20? I care about per play numbers. Compare apples to apples. 1 play = 1 play. Very simple.

And they are marginally better from last year on a per play basis.

How does it even make sense to judge a team per play?

Do you not judge a team by how many points/plays/yards they give up every time the other team has the ball?

How can you not?
 
Frankly, it's difficult to even know where to begin in responding. You haven't told us why you've highlighted the stats you've highlighted, how you're interpreting the numbers or why they tend to the conclusion that defensive weakness is being covered up by our running the ball more.

The one statistic you've cited that seems relevant to the discussion is 1st downs allowed per play, where according to your numbers we rank 10th in the league. It would have been helpful for you to have provided last year's number so that we could in fact guage whether there has been any improvement. In any event, 10th seems pretty good: it suggests that we're limiting first down conversions and that the defense is therefore doing it's part in getting off the field and helping to win the TOP battle that you're giving the running game all of the credit for winning.

I draw this conclusion based upon the fact that, as a general rule (it gets a bit more complicated when you start factoring in turnovers), one wants to see fewer 1st downs per play: a defense that allows a first down on every play will have a first downs per play ratio of 1 (100% of the plays it faces are first downs) whereas as a defense that forces 3-and-out on every series will have a first downs per play ratio of .33 (33% of the plays it faces are first down). It follows, then, that defenses will have a 1st down per play ratio of .33 (perhaps slightly lower, to reflect that on occasion the defense will be out there for a 4th down) to 1, with defenses that are better at getting off of the field and therefore limiting the number of plays they face being closer to the bottom end of that range and defenses that are worse at getting off of the field and limiting the number of plays they face being closer to the top end of the range. You haven't given us the raw numbers, but it appears that the Cowboys' D is 10th closest in the NFL to the bottom end of the range, meaning it's 10th best in the NFL at getting off the field and limiting the number of plays it faces.

I'm not sure why you've looked at 3rd downs per play or what inferences you draw from that data. I guess the only thing I'd note is that, in contrast to first downs per play, one generally would prefer to see a higher ratio of 3rd downs per play than a lower one, since the fewer 3rd downs per play the better the opposing offense is at converting first downs without even having to get to 3rd down. Accordingly, I guess the one thing like I'd to confirm is: when you say we rank 19th in 3rd downs per play, does that mean we have the 19th fewest third downs per play or the 19th most 3rd downs per play. Unlike with 1st downs per play, if its the 19th most that's actually a good thing, since it ranks the D near the top third of the league. Here again it would be useful to compare this year's data to last year's.

Points allowed are best viewed on a per game basis. You haven't provided that data. Total points allowed would have been fine if the whole season had been played, but as it stands using total points allowed benefits teams that have played fewer games. There's no good reason I can think of to look at points allowed on a per play basis. In fact, doing so penalizes teams whose whole defensive philosophy is premised on limiting the number of plays the team faces on defense.

Which is also points to a fundamental problem with what you did at the end of your post. Taking our D's per play numbers and multiplying them by the number of plays that the Eagles defense has faced tells us absolutely nothing of value. All it does is strip away one of the basic strengths of our D (its ability to limit the number of plays it faces). Yeah, if our D was as bad as Philly's at getting off the field (actually, I can't even draw this conclusion since, notwithstanding that you purport to compare the two Ds, you don't provide the same metrics for the Eagles' D that you do for ours) our absolute numbers would be a lot worse. And if my uncle had **** he'd be my aunt.

In the end, you haven't told us how your data supports the conclusion that a bad D is being masked by a running game that is winning the TOP battle. Quite the contrary, the limited useful data you've provided seems to indicate that the defense is doing its part in getting off the field, limiting the number of plays it faces and winning the TOP battle.

Frankly, it's difficult to even know where to begin in responding. You haven't told us why you've highlighted the stats you've highlighted, how you're interpreting the numbers or why they tend to the conclusion that defensive weakness is being covered up by our running the ball more.

The one statistic you've cited that seems relevant to the discussion is 1st downs allowed per play, where according to your numbers we rank 10th in the league. It would have been helpful for you to have provided last year's number so that we could in fact guage whether there has been any improvement. In any event, 10th seems pretty good: it suggests that we're limiting first down conversions and that the defense is therefore doing it's part in getting off the field and helping to win the TOP battle that you're giving the running game all of the credit for winning.

I draw this conclusion based upon the fact that, as a general rule (it gets a bit more complicated when you start factoring in turnovers), one wants to see fewer 1st downs per play: a defense that allows a first down on every play will have a first downs per play ratio of 1 (100% of the plays it faces are first downs) whereas as a defense that forces 3-and-out on every series will have a first downs per play ratio of .33 (33% of the plays it faces are first down). It follows, then, that defenses will have a 1st down per play ratio of .33 (perhaps slightly lower, to reflect that on occasion the defense will be out there for a 4th down) to 1, with defenses that are better at getting off of the field and therefore limiting the number of plays they face being closer to the bottom end of that range and defenses that are worse at getting off of the field and limiting the number of plays they face being closer to the top end of the range. You haven't given us the raw numbers, but it appears that the Cowboys' D is 10th closest in the NFL to the bottom end of the range, meaning it's 10th best in the NFL at getting off the field and limiting the number of plays it faces.

I'm not sure why you've looked at 3rd downs per play or what inferences you draw from that data. I guess the only thing I'd note is that, in contrast to first downs per play, one generally would prefer to see a higher ratio of 3rd downs per play than a lower one, since the fewer 3rd downs per play the better the opposing offense is at converting first downs without even having to get to 3rd down. Accordingly, I guess the one thing like I'd to confirm is: when you say we rank 19th in 3rd downs per play, does that mean we have the 19th fewest third downs per play or the 19th most 3rd downs per play. Unlike with 1st downs per play, if its the 19th most that's actually a good thing, since it ranks the D near the top third of the league. Here again it would be useful to compare this year's data to last year's.

Points allowed are best viewed on a per game basis. You haven't provided that data. Total points allowed would have been fine if the whole season had been played, but as it stands using total points allowed benefits teams that have played fewer games. There's no good reason I can think of to look at points allowed on a per play basis. In fact, doing so penalizes teams whose whole defensive philosophy is premised on limiting the number of plays the team faces on defense.

Which is also points to a fundamental problem with what you did at the end of your post. Taking our D's per play numbers and multiplying them by the number of plays that the Eagles defense has faced tells us absolutely nothing of value. All it does is strip away one of the basic strengths of our D (its ability to limit the number of plays it faces). Yeah, if our D was as bad as Philly's at getting off the field (actually, I can't even draw this conclusion since, notwithstanding that you purport to compare the two Ds, you don't provide the same metrics for the Eagles' D that you do for ours) our absolute numbers would be a lot worse. And if my uncle had **** he'd be my aunt.

In the end, you haven't told us how your data supports the conclusion that a bad D is being masked by a running game that is winning the TOP battle. Quite the contrary, the limited useful data you've provided seems to indicate that the defense is doing its part in getting off the field, limiting the number of plays it faces and winning the TOP battle.

http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/opponent-yards-per-game
That should help you answer most of your questions.

And the point I'm debating is that the defense is not helping prevent the number of plays it has, it's the offense that is. The numbers simply don't suggest that. The biggest number that does is 21 rushing attempts last year, 33.6 this year.

The defensive numbers are relatively the same as last year. Minor improvements, but not dramatic.

So yes, if we had Philly's offense our defense would look MUCH worse than it does now.
 
Sure it does. But then you'd be ignoring how much we actually did improve on defense. We are playing better on that side of the ball, and it's not just because we're running the ball better. That is indisputable.

But I believe it is. We are limiting the number of plays that this less than average defense has to play. More plays, means more yards and more points. If this defense was top 10 in these categories I could see how there could be an argument for the defense getting itself off the field, but that's not the case.
 
Yep.

The pass defense has tightened up.

Last season the defense gave up an opposing passer rating of 94.

This year they've gotten that down to an opposing passer rating of 88. THAT has nothing to do with a better running game. Just playing better pass defense.

Compare the QBs that we played last year to this year. And get back to me at the end of the year.
 
How does it even make sense to judge a team per play?

Do you not judge a team by how many points/plays/yards they give up every time the other team has the ball?

How can you not?

How can you accurately compare teams if you don't look at per play? Totals are indicative. Take Philly. Their defense plays 15 plays more a game than ours. If they give up more yards than our defense does that make them worse?

Statistically they are better than us on defense per play. Great site to get all the stats.
http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/opponent-yards-per-game
 
But I believe it is. We are limiting the number of plays that this less than average defense has to play. More plays, means more yards and more points. If this defense was top 10 in these categories I could see how there could be an argument for the defense getting itself off the field, but that's not the case.

Actually, we are top 10 in points allowed per drive.

And to answer your other question, you accurately judge a defense by how they perform when the opposing team has the ball.

We're also #4 in TO's per drive.

We allow 5.5 plays for their offense on average per drive, which is good for #6 in the NFL.

And our defense holds opposing offenses to an average of 2.32 minutes of possession per drive. #6 in the NFL in that

So we're 6th in how many plays we let opposing offenses run when they have the ball, 6th in how long we let them have the ball, and top 10 in points we let them score every time they have the ball.

I'm not saying running the ball doesn't help the defense, but these are facts. I'd say those are pretty damn good.
 
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3rd Down Conversion Percentage:
2013 43.8%
2014 41.2%

1st and 2nd Down Conversion Percentage:
2013 30.2%
2014 25%

Overall Conversion Percentage:
2013 33.2%
2014 29%

1st Downs per game:
2013 22.7
2014 16.4

Drives per game:
2013 11.4
2014 10.4
(I assume this extra 1 drive will net 6 additional 1st downs per game?)

Plays per drive:
2013 6.1
2014 5.5

Yards per drive:
2013 36.8
2014 31.2

Scoring (TD & FG) percentage per drive
2013 41%
2014 30%

I'm not saying they are significantly better nor do I think anyone else thinks that either. But they are better.
 
http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/opponent-yards-per-game
That should help you answer most of your questions.

Thanks. Very helpful.

And the point I'm debating is that the defense is not helping prevent the number of plays it has, it's the offense that is. The numbers simply don't suggest that. The biggest number that does is 21 rushing attempts last year, 33.6 this year.

The defensive numbers are relatively the same as last year. Minor improvements, but not dramatic.

No. Huge improvements in opponents' 1st downs per game (1st in the league at 17.4 -- last year opponents had 24.2 first downs per game, which would currently rank us 30th in the league) and opponents' 1st downs per play (8th in the league at .307 -- last year opponents had .355 1st downs per play against the D, which would currently rank us 31st in the league, just ahead of Tampa).

These numbers suggest the very opposite of what you're contending: the defense is limiting the number of plays it faces and getting itself off of the field, helping to win the TOP battle that you're crediting to the running game.
 
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