Hardy's ironic situation

[texbumthelife]

Is proving you don't need the elite QB?
To do what? Get to the Super Bowl?
Manning led the Broncos to a 7-1 record before Osweiler got any significant time. Then the Broncos had to put Manning back in when Osweiler started slumping.

He may not be what he was, but he still has the intelligence and enough arm strength to manage the Broncos offense.

I don't think he's what he once was, but what he is is enough. And the Broncos aren't where they are if Osweiler is starting behind center, IMO.

They put Manning back in because he's Manning. You don't leave him on the bench. I think they could definitely have made the Super Bowl with Osweiler. The running game was dramatically better with Osweiler in there and he throws less interceptions than Manning. Either way, as I said, it's Manning, you can't leave him on the bench. Just like you don't bench Palmer last night as atrocious as he was.

FTR, Osweiler had his best game passer rating wise, in his second to last start againsr a very good Bengals team.

 

[tyke1doe]

That's true in regards to drafting.

They'd probably be without McCourty and possibly Sheard.

They may not have been able to resign Gostkowski!

All I know is, I hope they follow what people were saying here and cut Vollmer. I would snatch him up as Free's replacement in a heartbeat.

Do you think McCourty makes more of a difference to the Patriot's overall wins than a Dez or Antonio Brown or Emmanuel Sanders or a Golden Tate would teamed with Tom Brady?

I don't think so. I think Tom Brady with another threat at receiver would have taken the Pats to another Super Bowl. As badly as the Broncos were knocking Tom all over the field, he STILL had the Patriots in contention to win.

I barely heard McCourty's name.

 

[tyke1doe]

They put Manning back in because he's Manning. You don't leave him on the bench. I think they could definitely have made the Super Bowl with Osweiler. The running game was dramatically better with Osweiler in there and he throws less interceptions than Manning. Either way, as I said, it's Manning, you can't leave him on the bench. Just like you don't bench Palmer last night as atrocious as he was.

But that's probably because a 60 percent Manning is still better than a 95 percent Osweiler.

But we'll never know. Anyway, I think the Panthers are going to mud stomp Manning in two weeks.

 

[texbumthelife]

Do you think McCourty makes more of a difference to the Patriot's overall wins than a Dez or Antonio Brown or Emmanuel Sanders or a Golden Tate would teamed with Tom Brady?

I don't think so. I think Tom Brady with another threat at receiver would have taken the Pats to another Super Bowl. As badly as the Broncos were knocking Tom all over the field, he STILL had the Patriots in contention to win.

I barely heard McCourty's name.

I couldn't say for sure, that is a different argument. I simply said if the Patriots valued receivers, it would cost them other places.

 

[texbumthelife]

But that's probably because a 60 percent Manning is still better than a 95 percent Osweiler.

But we'll never know. Anyway, I think the Panthers are going to mud stomp Manning in two weeks.

I like to argue things that I can feasibly prove

We can argue hypothetically all day, but I prefer to chase cars rather than my tail.

Did you even watch Manning yesterday? He looked awful.

 

[RS12]

he leaves Carolina (7-8-1) to join the Cowboys (12-4) with everyone (me included) thinking the Cowboys were SB contenders. Then his former team goes 15-1 and are 2 weeks away from the super bowl.

Funny how things works out right ?

I have been surprised up till this point there hasn't been any reports of hardy "losing it."

This is not a romo injury or Murray traded thread so do not turn it into one. I give mods my blessing to ban those who try to.

You are jumping over the whole "they didnt want him back" part.

 

[jterrell]

Didn't that combo go 18-0 and make it to the Super Bowl?



I don't quite understand what you're saying. Please explain. Thanks.

Yes to top ?

As to 2nd being good perennially you are drafting late R1 and have to pay people to maintain them as they are tagged winners.
Being forced to fill a roster long term without ever having elite resources is tough.
Outside the Pats basically every SB contender has done so with really high draft pick talent.
Though they have Brady and Belichek so hardly draw my sympathy.

 

[jterrell]

I never said the guy was a bum, but he was a bus driver. As was Brad Johnson when he got his ring. This doesn't mean they had awful careers or were journeymen, but does show you certainly don't need an elite QB, which was the argument--in case you weren't following.

Again, overstated to the 10th power.
Dilfer bus drove his way 20k passing yards and made a Pro Bowl.
He wasn't elite but he had his moments.
The big thing for him was that post-season run he made very few mistakes and only had 1 INT.

Teams can certainly get to and win a Super Bowl once if everything breaks their way but no team wins consistently without an elite QB. Period.

If you have an elite QB you have a shot every single year.

 

[jterrell]

You are jumping over the whole "they didnt want him back" part.

Probably because "they" was one dude. The owner.
Cam wanted him back.
I am guessing Cam speaks more for the locker room than the owner.

 

[RS12]

Probably because "they" was one dude. The owner.

Thats all that matters, but I bet there were plenty in the FO that didnt either. Either way, pointless thread, he wasnt going back there.

 

[texbumthelife]

Again, overstated to the 10th power.
Dilfer bus drove his way 20k passing yards and made a Pro Bowl.
He wasn't elite but he had his moments.
The big thing for him was that post-season run he made very few mistakes and only had 1 INT.

Teams can certainly get to and win a Super Bowl once if everything breaks their way but no team wins consistently without an elite QB. Period.

If you have an elite QB you have a shot every single year.

Dilfer played for 13 seasons. That's just over 1,500 yards a season. I know, however, even though you're the one who brought up that stats, you're going to wiggle your way around it so here are more:

In Dilfer's best season he threw for 2,859 yards
His high for TD's in a season was 21.
His avg rating is 70
In 13 seasons, he started all 16 games only 5 times. He started less than 10 games six times.

He didn't make a lot of mistakes, but didn't make very many big plays. He was the prototypical bus driver.

Just for argument's sake, how many Super Bowls does quite possibly the most elite of all quarterbacks, Peyton Manning, have?

QB is the most important position on the field, so I will give you it clearly has great significance on winning games, but what has greater significance is good coaching, defense and a solid rushing attack.

So, you don't think Romo is "elite" then?

 

[Nightman]

I'm happy for Jared

Allen didn't even play

 

[Nightman]

Denver is proving you don't need the elite QB. While Manning is historically among the greatest ever, he certainly is nowhere near "elite" this year.

You can't underestimate his audibles. That is where Romo stands out as well. It isn't just physical tools.

 

[Nightman]

Again, overstated to the 10th power.
Dilfer bus drove his way 20k passing yards and made a Pro Bowl.
He wasn't elite but he had his moments.
The big thing for him was that post-season run he made very few mistakes and only had 1 INT.

Teams can certainly get to and win a Super Bowl once if everything breaks their way but no team wins consistently without an elite QB. Period.

If you have an elite QB you have a shot every single year.

The BAL defense was historically great that year. Dilfer is the poster child for Bus Driver QBs.

 

[65fastback2plus2]

Forgettings Hardy's personal feelings on the situation for a moment, it's a testament to the front office and coaching staff of the Panthers that they've gone 15-1 and rolled through the playoffs so far missing their #1 defensive talent off of their roster from last season in Hardy AND their #1 offensive player ( Benjamin) besides Cam Newton on offense.

I am shocked how much that team has squeezed productivity from NFL rejects like Ted Ginn, Roman Harper, Jerricho Cotchery, etc.

Ummm...Hardy was their #2 talent behind Luke Kuechly.

 

[visionary]

I think this is a testament to

1. A QB who is playing out of his mind and was good to begin with

2. A roster built 'up the middle' and in the trenches. A dominant run game, very good OL, great DTs, and great at MLB and good safety play. They are a great example of why Dez should not have been paid 100 million.

 

[Nightman]

I think this is a testament to

1. A QB who is playing out of his mind and was good to begin with

2. A roster built 'up the middle' and in the trenches. A dominant run game, very good OL, great DTs, and great at MLB and good safety play. They are a great example of why Dez should not have been paid 100 million.

I think it is mainly #1 that has everyone else inspired. The guy wins everywhere he goes.

 

[Doc50]

NFC South compared to NFC East.
Going off memory here. And all this means nothing. But it is the off season.

Few years back or so, Saints ruled the NFCS pretty much, Falcons and Panthers would give them a challenge now and then. People would say Panthers are getting there, a few players away....sound familiar...and then people would say, Falcons finally have a team, only to falter.
2014 the NFCS is in shambles, looked like a 6-10 team was going to win the division. Then Panthers tie with Bengals, and win last 4 games to win it at 7-8-1 without Hardy.

This year they take off like a wildfire and never looked back, with basically the same team.

NFCE this year looked like a 6-10 or 7-10 team was going to win it. Then Commanders win by default because giants and Eagles weren't that good, and Dallas had no Tony, no Dez, RB game took a while to get it figured out. Defense in flux as usual.
We could have run away with this division. But none of that matters at this point.

But it does give something to look forward to next season IMO. As it shows, anything can happen, and any team can turn it around.
However, I am still blaming Rowdy....he shows up as the team mascot in 1996, and we haven't been to the NFCC game since, let alone only winning 2 playoff games...

No kidding...........that Rowdy idiot has to go.

 

[jterrell]

Dilfer played for 13 seasons. That's just over 1,500 yards a season. I know, however, even though you're the one who brought up that stats, you're going to wiggle your way around it so here are more:

In Dilfer's best season he threw for 2,859 yards
His high for TD's in a season was 21.
His avg rating is 70
In 13 seasons, he started all 16 games only 5 times. He started less than 10 games six times.

He didn't make a lot of mistakes, but didn't make very many big plays. He was the prototypical bus driver.

Just for argument's sake, how many Super Bowls does quite possibly the most elite of all quarterbacks, Peyton Manning, have?

QB is the most important position on the field, so I will give you it clearly has great significance on winning games, but what has greater significance is good coaching, defense and a solid rushing attack.

So, you don't think Romo is "elite" then?

a lot of this is minutiae.
1st. This was 20 years ago not last week. QB stats have skyrocketed.
Ravens were definitely a better defensive team than offensive one.
But that same Ravens lost games early before moving to Dilfer.
Dilfer was an experienced vet that knew how to win games.

There wasn't really another QB lighting it up. Marshall Faulk was league MVP.
It was the start of Payton's career and Favre was in a weird way. Gannon was considered the best QB going.

But again the fact these arguments have to go back that show out of touch it really is.
It was a very soft QB era post Montana/Young/Aikman/Kelly.
You had the beginnings of Payton and Favre.

But you look at Brady/Rodgers/Payton/BigBen the last 10 years and they've all made the Conference Finals oodles of times.
Payton has 26 career playoff starts. He'd likely have 40 if it weren't for Brady and Big Ben two other elite AFC QBs during the same era.

If you don't want to accept that elite QBs return to the playoffs yearly while teams built around elite defenses flounder around not sure what to tell you except go live with Rex Ryan for a while.
Denver's defense with largely the same cast of players was a dumpster fire just last season.
Not having a weak link on defense is really hard to maintain week to week much less year to year.
But an elite QB gives you 8 to 10 years of excellent play with maybe a couple injury seasons tossed in.

It isn't rocket science as to what teams strive for more.

 

[khiladi]

Manning played as good or better than Brady did last night. So the QB play was better yesterday.

If not for that stupid, backward pass, that put the Pats in scoring position Brady was flustered all night and couldn't get anything going.

He could have gotten called for illegal grounding on that last drive at least once and should have been INT'd a couple more times in general.

Rob was a monster though.

And the Pats defense was great this year too.. Malcolm Butler was a beast.