Pro Wrestling Talk

The wrestlers of today should study guys that were very good on the mic back in the day. Guys like Ernie Ladd,Michael Hayes,Ric Flair,Austin Idol,Jerry Lawler,Bruiser Brody,Jimmy Hary,Gary Hart,etc. Some were not the greatest bodies but they could put fans in the seats because they knew how to sell an event.
 
Take a look at this work and give it a :thumbup: or :thumbdown: as to whether you like it or not:


Good match but what I am getting use to seeing.A bunch of acrobats selling their signature moves,but where is the build up the MIC skills are needed,the storyline for them not liking each other???
 
NWO vs DX was not even close. NWO all the way!! DX was like watching a bunch of kids playing pranks on Vince McMahon like it was Ferris Bueller's Day Off... NWO had it going on until Vince Russo came in and ruined it. Jeff Jarrett he pushed was horrible. Jarrett barely could speak proper English and I never understood that wrestling look with that neck collar outfit?? Jarrett looked like a contestant for Miss Transgender or something.... NWO Just Hogan,Hall,Nash,S.Steiner,Bagwell and maybe Scott Norton...Most of the others were Hot Trash.... DX as soon as XPAC was fired by WCW,he was hired by WWE and put into DX. I just remember Sean Waltman saying that Nash & Hall could get out of their contracts they would be there too on RAW. Wow what a great selling point that the WWE was losing to WCW makes me want to root for DX(NAH I don't think so)...HHH acts like he did something for WCW's fall. He had nothing to do with it. This is what I'm talking about HHH's ego. He over inflates himself. HHH was a average worker and only worked best as a heel.Him and Michaels mentally pushing Candido to suicide shows how much of a trash person HHH is. He is only there because he married the owners daughter. HHH hated Edge and wanted to fire him but Vince McMahon was not that stupid because Edge was a good draw. HHH's ego again at work...The reason Stone Cold Steve Austin is not there is also questionable,who is in charge???
 
NWO vs DX was not even close. NWO all the way!! DX was like watching a bunch of kids playing pranks on Vince McMahon like it was Ferris Bueller's Day Off... NWO had it going on until Vince Russo came in and ruined it. Jeff Jarrett he pushed was horrible. Jarrett barely could speak proper English and I never understood that wrestling look with that neck collar outfit?? Jarrett looked like a contestant for Miss Transgender or something.... NWO Just Hogan,Hall,Nash,S.Steiner,Bagwell and maybe Scott Norton...Most of the others were Hot Trash.... DX as soon as XPAC was fired by WCW,he was hired by WWE and put into DX. I just remember Sean Waltman saying that Nash & Hall could get out of their contracts they would be there too on RAW. Wow what a great selling point that the WWE was losing to WCW makes me want to root for DX(NAH I don't think so)...HHH acts like he did something for WCW's fall. He had nothing to do with it. This is what I'm talking about HHH's ego. He over inflates himself. HHH was a average worker and only worked best as a heel.Him and Michaels mentally pushing Candido to suicide shows how much of a trash person HHH is. He is only there because he married the owners daughter. HHH hated Edge and wanted to fire him but Vince McMahon was not that stupid because Edge was a good draw. HHH's ego again at work...The reason Stone Cold Steve Austin is not there is also questionable,who is in charge???


HHH was nothing until he started his new diet in the WWE. Remember John Paul Levesque with the neckerchief and the ruffles and curtsy
 
HHH was nothing until he started his new diet in the WWE. Remember John Paul Levesque with the neckerchief and the ruffles and curtsy
Yes that is why I think HHH kept Steve Regal around because Regal gave him his 1st break as his tag team partner in WCW... HHH oeiginally was named Terra Rising
 
Recently I heard Ryback on his podcast stating that Vince would have Michael Hayes and Arn Anderson come right in and tell them to cut a promo and Hayes and Arn could do it on command and cut a better promo than anybody on the roster. It really doesn’t surprise me. Hayes, IMO, is the most underrated mic worker of all time and Arn is a HoF’er on the mic in his own right.


But, what I had to laugh about is the notion that Vince was more or less putting down the current wrestlers for not being able to cut a promo and then have Arn and Hayes ‘show ‘em how it’s done.’ The WWE simply doesn’t have many promos these days. Instead, they rely on vignettes. And when you don’t give wrestlers the time to cut a promo they certainly are not going to get good at it.


Vignettes are used way too much in wrestling. There are 3 major issues with using vignettes:

1. The logic of a backstage camera filming wrestlers talking rarely makes sense.

2. Wrestlers, by and large, are not good at vignettes because it requires acting skills.

3. Vignettes, even when executed well, rarely sell the audience on what the promotion is delivering.

#3 is about as important as anything and is something completely lost from wrestling today, even when they do cut promos.


The wrestlers have to SELL to the fans what they and the promotion have to offer.


Paul Heyman recounted a story when he first came to WCW that he went on TV and was super-duper charged to stand out. Afterwards, the booker Dusty Rhodes told him (paraphrasing) ‘That’s terrific energy, kid. But, where’s the MONEY?’


It’s not surprising to me that Dusty said that because Dusty was the best I ever saw at cutting a promo and making sure to sell to the fans as to why they should pay the money to come see him take on his opponent. And I wasn’t even a big Dusty fan, but from the perspective of being able to actually sell to the fans to come see him in a promo, nobody was better than Dusty.


This is really the main fundamental of promos. It’s a sales pitch to the fans. There are numerous ways to cut face promos and numerous ways to cut heel promos. But the tried and true fundamental is that the babyface sells to the fans that if they pay money to see him wrestle, he will right the wrongs that the heel did to him. And the face will tell you where and when that will happen.


As I said before, there’s numerous ways to cut heel promos. But, the heel still needs to sell his rivalry and upcoming match as well. And the most basic form of that is the heel is authentic in his belief that he will defeat the babyface and revel in the fans’ anger over his victory.


This is why the current system of using TV writers works so poorly. Yes, wrestlers having to portray a character and stick to strict script is a recipe for bad promos. But, it’s not always that bad. However, TV writers have failed to understand how to get a promo that sells the product to the audience.



I see a lot of the modern fans don’t quite realize this as well. Today, when I read about somebody being ‘great on the mic’ I tend to see it as a person that appears comfortable on the mic and doesn’t stumble over their words. But that doesn’t equate to being great or even very good on the mic.


I think Bray Wyatt is a great example of this. Yes, he is comfortable on the mic and has some neat lines to say. But the reality is that it all forms into mostly gibberish and fails to sell him and his rivalry and upcoming match against his opponent. Furthermore, he uses a catchphrase (Follow the Buzzards) which is a babyface type of move and again…is mostly nonsensical and doesn’t sell the viewer on who he is fighting against.


Another final issue with today’s wrestling when it comes to promos is the announcer (or reporter) that is holding the mic.


I think the announcer holding the mic plays an important role when a wrestler is cutting a promo. They need to react properly to the wrestler’s statements so the audience can get the entire effect of what is being said. Where I give Vince credit is that he will usually get professional looking talent to hold the mic. This is better than having somebody with a gimmick and a color outfit holding the mic. Those types usually distract from what the wrestler is saying.


The problem is that people like Renee Young, Byron Saxton, etc. have zero reaction or have the wrong reaction to what is being said. This is why guys like Gene Okerlund, Tony Schiavone, Lance Russell, Joey Styles, Jim Ross, etc. were so valuable. They didn’t look like models, but they got more out of helping with the promo and thus selling the product to the audience.


Here’s one of my favorite promos of all time with Jos Leduc on Jerry Lawler. Leduc was a monster heel and cuts a promo where he’s angry (and crazy) like a monster heel should be. And that he’s fed up with Jerry Lawler and is obsessed with hurting Lawler. Lance Russell does a great job of showing that he’s uncomfortable and scared for Lawler which helps the promo because now the audience is more concerned for Jerry.





And here’s one of my favorite babyface promos by Buddy Landell. Landell is turning from heel to face and is presenting himself as an underdog that has been knocked down by his own demons, but is rising up again. And what’s great is how he sells to the audience as to why you want to come see his match along with making sure that they know where and when the match will be.










YR
 
One of the most overlooked, but extremely important aspects of a pro wrestling company is the lead announcer. The lead announcer is the person in charge of presenting the product, enhancing the product and basically gives a first impression to the viewer.


However, the lead announcer is a unique situation in that if the product stinks, the announcer is viewed negatively. It simply doesn’t matter how good the announcer is, if the product stinks the fans will turn against him and he may never get a second chance to restore their faith. But, the reverse is not true either. If the product is good and the announcer stinks, the fans won’t view the announcer positively and it may turn them off to the good product overall. The lead announcer position is so critical because it plays an impact on the product and there’s so little margin for error.


WWE announcers end up stinking because Vince McMahon is constantly in the headset directing them what to say and Vince McMahon was a terrible announcer himself. So they are directed by a terrible announcer to do terrible announcing. Jim Ross was the exception because Ross was taught by Bill Watts who was an excellent announcer and Ross had already made his bones in the business and didn’t follow every direction Vince gave him.


I’m not a big fan of color commentators because it’s so reliant on chemistry. You can have a play-by-play announcer who is good on his own and a color commentator that is good on his own…but if they don’t have the right chemistry than both will stink. This is why I think Jesse Ventura was undoubtedly the best color commentator in the business. He was able to have chemistry with whomever he announced with. He and Jim Ross didn’t get along and Jesse was still able to create a formidable annoucing duo.


I think the main duties of the lead announcer are:

1. Hyping the show that is about to be presented to the viewer

2. Calling the match

3. Conducting interviews

4. Providing editorials

5. Reacting to the wrestlers and whatever is going on.

One of the lost arts of wrestling is the announcer’s ability to call the match. Most indie announcers take calling the match too literally. They call out every move done instead of telling a story of what is going on. The viewer is watching the match, so calling out every move is overkill because they can see what is going on. Instead, they cannot always piece together the story of what is going on like the smaller wrestler using the ropes to propel himself with more force towards his larger opponent. Or the one wrestler not only wanting to win the match, but looking to injure the opponent. Or the babyface that is outsmarting the heels.


With WWE announcing they are often in void of calling any of the action and instead promote some other feud that has nothing to do with the match at hand. But, what do you expect when Vince McMahon’s announcing mostly consisted of say ‘WHAT A MANEUVER!’


I’m sure Vince’s argument will be that he’s trying to promote the bigger draws to the card when they incessantly discuss them in midcard matches. But, in wrestling…even in the WWE…there needs to be a sense of urgency in developing new stars because it’s so difficult to do so. And if the wrestler is truly a star, they need to earn their own keep and be a star without doing it at the expense of others.


What I think so many promotions have lost out on is the editorial comments from the announcer. To me, Joey Styles was probably the best I’ve ever seen at this. On almost a weekly basis he would make some sort of editorial commentary that was phrased just right so that I would remember it for months after the fact.


Here’s a great editorial bit from Gordon Solie after Terry Funk viciously beats up journeyman Bruce Walkup and Funk calls out Dusty:





When Dusty meets him…he knows. He knows the bunkhouse. He knows the steel cage. He knows pain. Terry Funk…may yet have some lessons to be learned.


Such a great commentary that leaves a great imprint in the viewer’s head. And Gordon also sold the match between Funk and Dusty by stating of where they might fight each other. It’s a tremendous job of enticing the fans to make sure that they watch them on TV and pay to go see them live because you never know what could happen when they finally meet.






YR
 
Gordon Solie was the best in the business and didn't need a "color" guy even there he ended up with one on occasion like Roddy Piper.
Gordon with my favorite:

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I was listening to a wrestling podcast and the hosts were discussing the issues with the WWE's use of the 'evil' authority figure. The main issue they had with it was that it was overused and they felt it didn't make sense as the authority figure was promoting the WWE, but also being a heel to those fans.

While I think those are good and fair points, I still think that the bigger issue at hand is how the heel authority figure is used. Part of the issue is that the heel authority figure worked great for Vince McMahon who is tremendous at playing the heel role. McMahon played an old school style heel with over-exaggerated facial expressions and promos. But, he just had a knack for pulling that off. It's very difficult to be that over the top and be effective, even for a good, well-seasoned veteran. But Vince pulled it off to a tee. And it also helped that for years Vince was building up some heel heat because he refused to acknowledge he was the owner of the WWF and was one of the worst announcers in wrestling for quite some time. Other heels, particularly authority figures, don't have those things going for them.

However, the way the heel authority figure is booked is the bigger issue. And it goes back to the ole tried and true principle in wrestling...every angle/storyline/feud should tie into the wrestler winning against the other wrestler.

First, McMahon's heel persona started out brilliantly. Vince brought in Mike Tyson to be the special attraction and he didn't want anybody, particularly mega-over babyface Steve Austin, to do anything to mess it up. Of course, that didn't happen.



McMahon was irate after Austin's behavior and even when McMahon later tried to 'work together' with Austin, Austin gave him a stunner anyway.

That led to McMahon getting wrestlers to beat Austin and put Austin in unfair situations (i.e. 2 vs. 1 handicap matches) all to get back at Austin for what he did to Tyson.

These days you tend to see the heel authority figure being called out by a babyface where it has almost nothing to do with heel authority figure causing the face to lose matches. Instead, it's about a 'push' and how the authority figure and their writers never pushed the face.



Not only does that come off as a little whiney, but it betrays that concept that it is about the *wrestler* who actually beats opponents...not some writer with a laptop in the back.

If you want a heel authority figure, the babyface's promos should come under the concept of 'Hey, I beat wrestler A, wrestler B and wrestler C. And instead of facing the champ, you refuse and had me wrestle against wrestler D, E and F. I beat them and I still couldn't face against the champ.

Instead, you get more of these style promos:



And that's the creation of Vince Russo, not Vince McMahon.

One helped lead to the greatest financial losses in pro wrestling history. The other led to the greatest financial windfall in pro wrestling history. If there's a problem with 'wrestling writers' it's that they are very much like Russo and they don't get the basic idea of what every storyline in wrestling should be about in the end. And that's why the popularity of the WWE keeps declining.





YR
 
If there's a problem with 'wrestling writers' it's that they are very much like Russo and they don't get the basic idea of what every storyline in wrestling should be about in the end. And that's why the popularity of the WWE keeps declining.
Preach!

I wish Vince would do something about that.
 
Still pissed off the guy who murdered him got away scot-free.

Agreed.

A travesty.

It shouldn't have happened.

I have to say though I think the way Frank handled things outside the ring probably contributed to his demise. And I don't mean to be a jerk about it. To me Frank Goodish (Bruiser Brody) is one of my all-time favorite wrestlers and one of the best big-men every in the business. But everything you read and hear about the guy is that he was absolutely brutal when it came to dealing with promoters and bookers. He (supposedly) would change demands, wouldn't put anyone over and in some cases simply "no show". Many promoters either wouldn't deal with him or simply stopped dealing with him. He could be very intimidating.

And from my way-out perspective that probably contributed to the his death.
 
Don't know if any of you caught this...

http://uproxx.com/prowrestling/sexy-star-pissed-off-wrestling-world-what-you-need-to-know/

At this point it appears the lady wrestlers went off-script and the match became a shoot. Sexy Star (who can be seen on "Lucha Underground" on the El-Rey Network) used an arm bar to force a submission, which wasn't scripted, and then wouldn't let go... Looks like an attempt to injure.


Here is one from Japan. The fat blonde was jealous of the other wrestler's popularity. They start a real shoot and I do believe the fat blonde broke the other girls face. Fast forward about the 6 minute mark and they will start for real.
 
Some other gimmicks i would do for the WWE. I would start a Boy Band Tag Team because every male hates BOY BANDS!! You could have the cute effeminate one,also the one with his hat backwards he is SO HOOD and a BAD Boy,you could have one like a wrestler like Fit Finlay who is in his 50's and claim he just turned 21, just douchebags that everyone could hate on.


You could have a version of a Japanese Wrestler who is dead like The Undertaker to face off. kind of like The Grudge or The Ring or just get The Great Muta


Too bad Seamus already got a part because he is so white they could have created a wrestler who was affected by natural light and had to use a special dark light. It would bring some mystique but it could be an advantage if it strobed and blinded his adversaries during a match.
 
Part of the appeal that pro wrestling had for me when I was a child was that it was unto itself in terms of entertainment. It wasn’t actually a real sport, but it wasn’t thespian entertainment either. It takes a unique type of skillsets for somebody to be over as a wrestler and knowing how to connect with the audience.


And the development of a character is unlike anything you will ever see. In the ole days a prospective wrestler would go thru training to become a wrestler. Then go to a territory and be a job guy with no personality. And then come up with a ‘gimmick’ on their own and bring that to a territory and often times carry that gimmick with them for their entire career.


This is one of the things I think HHH has done a good job with at NXT, allowing more wrestlers to create their own gimmick and run with it. Unfortunately, I think the writing committee still is too involved with the process and forces too many changes in gimmicks.


But imagine if actors did this as well. Imagine if James Gandolfini had created the Tony Soprano character, used it in the Sopranos and then brought it over to Boardwalk Empire and Blue Bloods. That’s just how unique the skillsets and development of wrestlers was back in the day and it made the product enjoyable.


Anyway, I define ‘gimmicks’ into 2 different categories. There’s the outright ‘gimmick’ where the person is obviously playing a character. The original version of the Undertaker is an example of a ‘gimmick.’ He was supposed to be an actual Undertaker that drew mystical powers from the urn.


The other version is what I call a ‘persona.’ This is a wrestler whose emphasis is more on their personality traits (and personality flaws). Ric Flair is an example of a ‘persona’ as he was a flashy, high roller type of character who had an extreme amount of swagger and loved to talk about his sexual exploits with women and how much money he made.


For me, I’m very against ‘gimmicks.’ The risk-reward is too high for my tastes. For every Undertaker or Sgt. Slaughter gimmick that worked out great, there are probably 10 gimmicks that failed miserably and ruined any chance a wrestler had of getting over in their career.


Personas are more about taking a wrestler’s actual personality and turning up the volume all of the way. It’s much easier for a real life Steve Williams, a beer loving redneck from Victoria, Texas to turn himself into a beer drinking, bionic redneck and anti-authority figure named Steve Austin. And even many of the wrestlers that started out as gimmicks didn’t become popular until they went from gimmick to persona. The Undertaker even developed more of a persona than a gimmick over time and it helped increase his popularity.


My guess is that gimmicks appeal to Vince McMahon in part because he grew up in territory that more about over-exaggerated expressions and personalities. Wrestlers like Dr. Jerry Graham, Chief Jay Strongbow, Mr. Fuji, etc. But I also feel that for McMahon it is easier to have control over a gimmick than it is a persona and it gives him more leverage with the wrestler.


I’m certain that McMahon always resented Bruno Sammartino for how he negotiated with Vince’s father. Bruno has the rights to his own name, but even if he didn’t, it wouldn’t be too difficult for somebody like Bruno to go to a different wrestling company with a similar name and still get over with the crowd. Compare that to somebody like the Undertaker where he wouldn’t have rights to the character and if he tried to leave the WWE and couldn’t bring the name with him, he would no longer be as appealing to fans.


But in the end, in pro wrestling personas beat out the gimmicks. And if somebody like a John Cena or a Dave Bautista can survive their gimmick, then they have the chance to get mega-over with their persona. And this is something that any company that wants to seriously give themselves to be a self sustaining promotion needs to do with their talent.







YR
 
Agreed.

A travesty.

It shouldn't have happened.

I have to say though I think the way Frank handled things outside the ring probably contributed to his demise. And I don't mean to be a jerk about it. To me Frank Goodish (Bruiser Brody) is one of my all-time favorite wrestlers and one of the best big-men every in the business. But everything you read and hear about the guy is that he was absolutely brutal when it came to dealing with promoters and bookers. He (supposedly) would change demands, wouldn't put anyone over and in some cases simply "no show". Many promoters either wouldn't deal with him or simply stopped dealing with him. He could be very intimidating.

And from my way-out perspective that probably contributed to the his death.

Here's a recent article flashing back to that event. Completely screwed up situation.

http://nypost.com/2017/07/17/this-wwe-legends-murder-still-haunts-wrestling-29-years-later/
 
Here's a recent article flashing back to that event. Completely screwed up situation.

http://nypost.com/2017/07/17/this-wwe-legends-murder-still-haunts-wrestling-29-years-later/
What I heard was from Tony Atlas was that Brody had a part as owner of the Puerto Rican Wrestling organization. They wanted his money but not his ideas.Broady was a Pain in the *** to them. After the stabbing ,Tony Atlas was told by other wrestlers just go straight to the airport don't go back to the hotel because Atlas could have ended up dead also. Real dirtbag stuff in killing and the cover up of Brody's killing. Gonzales was also mad because Brody had cut him in their match. Gonzales thought he was a bigger star than he was...
 

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