We won't be players in FA again in my opinion

[Chuck 54]

Just saw our draft picks this year 3-4th's and 3-5th's. No way we do anything in FA IMO. Expect more bottom feeding.

Unless they think they can get Green back to 2016 form at T, we must find a veteran backup at OT. You cannot use a midround developmental rookie as your swing T.
I also wouldn’t be surprised if we signed a vet OG.

 

[Nightman]

I get that some of you, like myself, want Martin to remain a Cowboy, but all the hoping and wishing doesn't change the possible numbers or make it any more possible that Martin will sign a team friendly deal. Martin could play 2018 on the option year for 9.3 mil which is significantly more than he had been making AND then after the season when he becomes a free agent and in high demand a team could offer the same 25 mil signing bonus and 10 -12 mil a year salary starting the first season which would be 2019. So that's 44.3 - 46.3 mil that he would receive for 2018 and 2019 and is way way more than what he would get if signing a team friendly back end loaded contract some of you think he could and/or would do. This is what I was talking about when I've said that signing a team friendly back end loaded contract is leaving money on the table. Yes Martin could get that injury in 2018 but the odds are much higher that it happens if he has a 5 or 6 year deal or 5 or 6 times as many games and practices to deal with. None of us know what's going to happen but if it was me and I had a chance in 2 years to take home 44.3-46.3 mil dollars that is how I would go.
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Under your plan he would have 4 years and 23m left on his contract after the first 2 years and 46.3m

Do you really think ZMartin will be happy playing out those terms? No one front loads like that because they lose any leverage....they are under contract and can't hold out...you would fire your agent for making a deal like that

6 years 69.3m with a 25 signing bonus
Year..............Salary............Cap Hit
2018...............9.3m..............14.3m
2019...............12m................17m
2020................12m................17m
2021.................7m.................12m
2022.................3m..................8m
2023.................1m..................1m

or

2018................1.3m..................6.3m
2019.................4m....................9m
2020.................8m....................13m
2021..................9m...................14m
2022.................10m..................15m
2023.................12m..................12m

 

[Risen Star]

You have to understand, our front office doesn't know what they're doing. They aren't real personnel guys. So it makes perfect sense that their reaction to getting burned in FA is to take the complete opposite approach and sit it out altogether. One extreme to the other because the middle area where you actually have to evaluate players and identify the value is something they simply aren't capable of.

 

[IrishAnto]

Klein, the LB from New Orleans, is probably about as high as I would go......... technically he's Top 10 AAV money but he has a pretty low guarantee number of $9MM and structured to have a fairly low cap number in Year 1.

I'd send Hutchens agent t

I am not naive about the fact that someone may be willing pay him more than we would. It could be significantly more. Just because that is what the market rate is on him doesn't mean that it's a good idea to match it.

If we can sign him as a middle tier backup (4th linebacker pay) that's reasonable and we shouldn't low ball him or play games. Sign him if he will sign for that.

But he’s not the 4th LB on this team.
At this moment he’s the 2nd on this team so you can’t pay him like a 4th.

 

[gjkoeppen]

You say that but if you are Martin and suffer a career ending injury this year you just cost yourself about 30 million dollars.

I think you should reread what I said because if, and nobody hopes it happens, Martin has that career ending injury under what I said all the Cowboys wouldn't be on the hook for anything because Martin would be on the option year and that's 9.3 in salary with no bonus. So when he would get hurt if anything it would save the Cowboys the remainder of the 2018 salary. Actually they would probably put him on IR and would then receive most of it.

 

[gjkoeppen]

You have to understand, our front office doesn't know what they're doing. They aren't real personnel guys. So it makes perfect sense that their reaction to getting burned in FA is to take the complete opposite approach and sit it out altogether. One extreme to the other because the middle area where you actually have to evaluate players and identify the value is something they simply aren't capable of.

Or they realized that in free agency 99.9% of the time because of supply and demand teams over pay for talent and since he Cowboys never have any cap room to play they don't.
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[gjkoeppen]

I think you and I got off track somewhere. I'm not making a case that Martin should give a "hometown discount". Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought I read in one of your posts way back that we couldn't keep Martin because it would blow the salary cap. I'm just making the case that he can sign a market contract and it won't blow the cap.

Even if they gave him a 5 year deal now at 75m total on top of his rookie option of 9.3m (total of 6 yrs. and $84m) and structured it all as guaranteed, no salary component, the cap hit in 2018 would be less than $5m more than if he just played for the rookie option. They have the cap room to do that. But, the Cowboys wouldn't do that, at least I hope they don't, and they don't have to. But they can structure whatever deal so to work with this year's cap.

First off no team can and no player would agree to putting all of the money in the form of bonuses. If they put it all as a signing bonus the team has no protection against the player not living up to all that bonus money once he has it all not to mention the league won't allow that. Second the team and player can either agree to the option year or sign an extension but not both.Once the season starts they can sign an extension that will start in 2019 but that still leaves the 9.3 mil salary on the books. I'll admit your idea is creative but not possible.

As far was what I've said about Martin is the Cowboys can't dabble in free agency if the expect to sign Martin, Lawrence Irving and Hitchens. There's just not enough cap space to do everything. I'v always said the Cowboys top priority is to get those 3 resigned and Martin on the option year.
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[Sydla]

First off no team can and no player would agree to putting all of the money in the form of bonuses. If they put it all as a signing bonus the team has no protection against the player not living up to all that bonus money once he has it all not to mention the league won't allow that. Second the team and player can either agree to the option year or sign an extension but not both.Once the season starts they can sign an extension that will start in 2019 but that still leaves the 9.3 mil salary on the books. I'll admit your idea is creative but not possible.

As far was what I've said about Martin is the Cowboys can't dabble in free agency if the expect to sign Martin, Lawrence Irving and Hitchens. There's just not enough cap space to do everything. I'v always said the Cowboys top priority is to get those 3 resigned and Martin on the option year.
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But Martin isn't really a big factor when it comes to cap space this year. He won't eat up a lot of whatever available space they have because he already is calculated in the current cap number. His $9.3MM number is already in the total cap number and if you resign him tomorrow, even if his cap hit in Year 1 is say, $13MM (which it wouldn't be most likely), it's not a new $13MM against the cap, it's only $3.7MM against our new cap number.

 

[gjkoeppen]

Under your plan he would have 4 years and 23m left on his contract after the first 2 years and 46.3m

Do you really think ZMartin will be happy playing out those terms? No one front loads like that because they lose any leverage....they are under contract and can't hold out...you would fire your agent for making a deal like that

6 years 69.3m with a 25 signing bonus
Year..............Salary............Cap Hit
2018...............9.3m..............14.3m
2019...............12m................17m
2020................12m................17m
2021.................7m.................12m
2022.................3m..................8m
2023.................1m..................1m

or

2018................1.3m..................6.3m
2019.................4m....................9m
2020.................8m....................13m
2021..................9m...................14m
2022.................10m..................15m
2023.................12m..................12m

I don't know how many times or different ways I have to say that 99.99999% of players would rather get the bulk of their contacts up front rather than the risk that something would happen and they wouldn't see the bulk of their money. Under your examples the top one pays out 40.3 mil in the 1st 4 years under what you propose he get only 22.3 mil the 1st 4years. Since every player knows that their careers can end on a single play do you really think players want to wait until the end of their contracts to make their money or more willing to get the bulk of it up front. You who has some non-physical job may say I'll atke the back ended deal, but we're not NFL players.
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[gjkoeppen]

But Martin is really a big when it comes to cap space this year. He won't eat up a lot of whatever available space they have because he already is calculated in the current cap number. His $9.3MM number is already in the total cap number and if you resign him tomorrow, even if his cap hit in Year 1 is say, $13MM (which it wouldn't be most likely), it's not a new $13MM against the cap, it's only $3.7MM against our new cap number.

This is the last time I'm replying to you. First once the Cowboys exerciser the option year THEN it counts against the cap but they haven't thus far and once they do that teams can't negotiate an extension until after the season starts.

 

[Sydla]

This is the last time I'm replying to you. First once the Cowboys exerciser the option year THEN it counts against the cap but they haven't thus far and once they do that teams can't negotiate an extension until after the season starts.

The Cowboys have $18MM in projected cap space per Over the Cap ($20MM on Spotrac). Martin's $9.3MM is INCLUDED in those cap numbers. Take him out and they have $27.3MM in cap space per Over the Cap. If they sign him to a new deal in the next week, let's say, even if he has a first year cap number of $13MM, he's really only lowering our available cap space by $3.7MM based on the Over the Cap and Spotrac numbers.

Here is the link to Over the Cap and our 2018 cap. Our total projected cap number is $18.5MM based on their calculation and if you look at the roster of players they are using in their calculation, Martin's $9.3MM is included already.

https://overthecap.com/salary-cap/dallas-cowboys/

Oh, and they already exercised the option. They had to do it by May of this year per league rules.

http://www.star-telegram.com/sports/nfl/dallas-cowboys/article145173984.html

 

[JustChip]

First off no team can and no player would agree to putting all of the money in the form of bonuses. If they put it all as a signing bonus the team has no protection against the player not living up to all that bonus money once he has it all not to mention the league won't allow that. Second the team and player can either agree to the option year or sign an extension but not both.Once the season starts they can sign an extension that will start in 2019 but that still leaves the 9.3 mil salary on the books. I'll admit your idea is creative but not possible.

As far was what I've said about Martin is the Cowboys can't dabble in free agency if the expect to sign Martin, Lawrence Irving and Hitchens. There's just not enough cap space to do everything. I'v always said the Cowboys top priority is to get those 3 resigned and Martin on the option year.
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My point on the 100% bonus contract is, not that it would be done, but that it's worst-case and still only hits the cap for $5m.I believe they'll be able to come together on something with a smaller additional cap hit this year, like maybe $2m. And that's not based on a hometown discount.

The Cowboys have $18.5m of cap space as we sit today. They should be able to sign Martin, D Law, Irving and a quality FA of need. Hitch is the question mark. If another team throws top 5 or even top 10 money at him, we won't be able to match it. Also, I hear "franchise D Law" to make him prove himself again - that would be a $15m - $16m hit and completely blows the cap so that, IMHO, is not an option.

There are also moves they can make that will free up cap space. They could cut Witten, not that they will, but could sign him to a 2-year deal shifting a big chunk of this year's salary into bonus money which would free up maybe $3.5m. It would be at the expense of next year's cap, but they're in better shape next year, and it wouldn't extend beyond next year. Same with Orlando Scandrick, although I think it's more likely he's gone, plus the cap savings aren't as great. And there's the enigma known as Dez Bryant. I'm not in the "get rid of Dez at all cost" corner; I'll believe he'll be here 1 more year. But there is an opportunity to do something that creates some additional cap room without blowing later years.

 

[DakBringMeBack]

I'm wondering if they'll package some or a lot of those picks to get a 2nd rounder and add someone who is truly impact rather than adding 6-7 guys with all those mid round picks who end up lotto tickets or cuts. Quality over quantity is my hope with this draft. Get 2-3 starters

 

[Nightman]

I don't know how many times or different ways I have to say that 99.99999% of players would rather get the bulk of their contacts up front rather than the risk that something would happen and they wouldn't see the bulk of their money. Under your examples the top one pays out 40.3 mil in the 1st 4 years under what you propose he get only 22.3 mil the 1st 4years. Since every player knows that their careers can end on a single play do you really think players want to wait until the end of their contracts to make their money or more willing to get the bulk of it up front. You who has some non-physical job may say I'll atke the back ended deal, but we're not NFL players.
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You are in the distinct minority on this one...........no agent or player agrees with your idea of playing the last 3 years for very little money........players like cash flow to increase not decrease to almost nothing

But good luck with your theory

 

[Sydla]

You are in the distinct minority on this one...........no agent or player agrees with your idea of playing the last 3 years for very little money........players like cash flow to increase not decrease to almost nothing

But good luck with your theory

The best way to analyze this stuff is just look at comparable players and see what they got and how their deals are structured. Typically, deals will be structured in the same ballpark. So it's not like, say Lawrence, if we sign him long term will get some bizarrely structured deal.

So for Martin, look to Zeitler who signed a FA deal in 2017. He got a 5 year, $60MM deal. Martin should get more, but structure wise, they will be similar with Martin obviously getting more in guaranteed money (likely in a higher signing bonus than Zeitler got).

The way Zeitler's deal is structured is of the $60MM, $31.5MM is guaranteed with $12MM of that in the signing bonus. The remaining $19.5MM of guaranteed money was in the form of guaranteed base salaries in 2017, 2018 and 2019. And these are staggered guarantees. So at the time of signing, his 2017 base salary of $6MM was guaranteed as well as $5MM of his 2018 base salary. If he's on the roster as of March 2018, then the remaining $5MM of base salary in 2018 (total base was $10MM) is guaranteed as well as $3.5MM of his 2019 base salary is guaranteed.

After that, the Browns are not on the book for any more guaranteed cash and the only cap hits they would be on the book for is the remaining prorated portion of the signing bonus of $12MM. IMO, the Cowboys will likely give him a larger signing bonus so they can spread out more money over the life of the contract.

 

[hornitosmonster]

What money?

 

[Sydla]

Unless they think they can get Green back to 2016 form at T, we must find a veteran backup at OT. You cannot use a midround developmental rookie as your swing T.
I also wouldn’t be surprised if we signed a vet OG.

I wonder since we have the Bengals OL coach, they might make a move for Eric Winston as a vet OT.

 

[Nightman]

The best way to analyze this stuff is just look at comparable players and see what they got and how their deals are structured. Typically, deals will be structured in the same ballpark. So it's not like, say Lawrence, if we sign him long term will get some bizarrely structured deal.

So for Martin, look to Zeitler who signed a FA deal in 2017. He got a 5 year, $60MM deal. Martin should get more, but structure wise, they will be similar with Martin obviously getting more in guaranteed money (likely in a higher signing bonus than Zeitler got).

The way Zeitler's deal is structured is of the $60MM, $31.5MM is guaranteed with $12MM of that in the signing bonus. The remaining $19.5MM of guaranteed money was in the form of guaranteed base salaries in 2017, 2018 and 2019. And these are staggered guarantees. So at the time of signing, his 2017 base salary of $6MM was guaranteed as well as $5MM of his 2018 base salary. If he's on the roster as of March 2018, then the remaining $5MM of base salary in 2018 (total base was $10MM) is guaranteed as well as $3.5MM of his 2019 base salary is guaranteed.

After that, the Browns are not on the book for any more guaranteed cash and the only cap hits they would be on the book for is the remaining prorated portion of the signing bonus of $12MM. IMO, the Cowboys will likely give him a larger signing bonus so they can spread out more money over the life of the contract.

What the new guy is suggesting is just not done......no one front loads 80% of the deal into the first 3 years.....it kills the cap and leaves the player with tiny base salaries after a coupe seasons.... no vet player wants a 1m base when they are 12m player.... it just feels insulting

DAL knows how to structure deals...........ZMartin will get 6/72m with a 15m sb and 40m gtd with a huge base salary in Year 2 that will be restructured automatically

 

[Sydla]

What the new guy is suggesting is just not done......no one front loads 80% of the deal into the first 3 years.....it kills the cap and leaves the player with tiny base salaries after a coupe seasons.... no vet player wants a 1m base when they are 12m player.... it just feels insulting

DAL knows how to structure deals...........ZMartin will get 6/72m with a 15m sb and 40m gtd with a huge base salary in Year 2 that will be restructured automatically

Yep. If you look around at many of these long term big deals, anywhere from 50-60% of the contract is guaranteed and those guarantees are typically paid out in the first 3 years or so in the form of signing bonuses and guaranteed salaries. No player is going to get a $70MM deal where $55MM+ is paid out in cash in the first 2-3 years.

If you look at Zeitler, by the end of Year 3, he will have walked in cash, with roughly 60% of the total contract value with base salaries of $10MM and $12MM (granted, not guaranteed) in the final two years of the contract. So the idea that Martin would get a deal what say would pay him more than 80% of the contract into the first couple of years is pretty preposterous.

 

[Nightman]

Yep. If you look around at many of these long term big deals, anywhere from 50-60% of the contract is guaranteed and those guarantees are typically paid out in the first 3 years or so in the form of signing bonuses and guaranteed salaries. No player is going to get a $70MM deal where $55MM+ is paid out in cash in the first 2-3 years.

If you look at Zeitler, by the end of Year 3, he will have walked in cash, with roughly 60% of the total contract value with base salaries of $10MM and $12MM (granted, not guaranteed) in the final two years of the contract. So the idea that Martin would get a deal what say would pay him more than 80% of the contract into the first couple of years is pretty preposterous.

Plus it absolutely kills the cap