We won't be players in FA again in my opinion

[Sydla]

I'll defer to you whether they can do both. However, can you really know for sure until after it's done? Maybe you can do a "what if" analysis based on past contracts, but what Lawrence and a mid-range FA will command will be set by the current market conditions. All it takes is one team to blow the market for both. It's what's plagued baseball for 30 years.

And just to be very, very clear. I'm not advocating building solely through the draft, nor am I advocating building solely through FA. A team has to be successful in both.

No offense, but this just rationalizing away the foibles of this front office.

The Cowboys have the flexibility in their cap, if they want, to sign a Lawrence and then go out and sign a guy like Earl Thomas or Eric Reid or someone else.

 

[conner01]

Where we diverge is you are seemingly willing to pay him more than I would if it gets the point we have competition for him.

I wouldn't even think about paying him upper echelon ILB money.

What do you think is a resonable price for hitch. He’s not a starter but a valuable backup and we have a LB who is likely to miss a game or two. My thinking is the 3-4 mil range
Just curious what your thinking is

 

[JustChip]

No offense, but this just rationalizing away the foibles of this front office.

The Cowboys have the flexibility in their cap, if they want, to sign a Lawrence and then go out and sign a guy like Earl Thomas or Eric Reid or someone else.

And I believe you're correct this year - they have $18m in cap space, which they've not had in the past. D Law will eat up a nice chunk of that unless they franchise him in which case I think it would eat all of it up. But assuming they sign him to a deal that has a cap hit of say $8-10m, they'll still have plenty of room this year. They really are in better shape this year than in the past which is why Stephen has said they will be more active. But I don't believe they can fill all of their needs in FA. I might be wrong, time will tell.

 

[cowboyec]

I view him as a slightly better Byron Bell at this point. Marginally better, but still not a viable option at left tackle. And that's where I see the biggest need, and one you're likely not going to be able to fill in free agency.

Many fans say "this team needs to sign a free agent swing tackle". Really? What team doesn't? The fact is that there aren't enough quality starters to go around in this league, much less guys that can play both sides waiting for a phone call.

It's unreasonable to think that you can just "find one", much less find one on the cheap.

you can never have enuff OL.....if they sign Smith or not....I would draft both a OG and OT.
You can never have enuff.

 

[Redball Express]

I'd like to think Garrett is well aware his job is on the line with the outcome of this season and in response lobbies for a couple splash FA in areas where we're in serious need

I NEVER get the feeling Garrett is in trouble at all.

This year we had Zeke's suspension as an excuse for not winning.

As long as things happen that become excuses for not winning..

tough to get there.

Other franchises are much more aggresive at making changes even after good seasons.

We comtinue to lose and all we do is schuffle assistants.

I don't see the plan.

 

[gjkoeppen]

You might be right. But, it seems to me that if they're adverse to a back-end loaded contract because of the risk of not seeing the full contract, why would they not be just as adverse to playing this year with only 9.3m assured? What happens if he has a Shazier moment? Signing an extension this year for the same total money and same guaranteed money over all 6 years mitigates that risk to Martin, shifting it to the Cowboys.

Now, if you're argument is that the market will be higher then and, instead of the 5/35/75 contract you proposed, he gets a 5/45/90 contract, that might be a risk he's willing to take. But he and his agent would be risking 35m for the 10m increase in guaranteed money. Everyone is different, but that doesn't seem like a good risk / reward to me. The age old "bird in hand" idea.

One other thing to think about, the trade-off for a back-loaded salary (non-guaranteed) component is the signing bonus. In effect, that makes it a front-loaded contract. But even if he and his agent said they'll only go for a constant salary contract, using your 5/35/75 contract, the additional cap hit in year 1 vs. the 9.3m rookie option is only 5m more. Not insignificant, but not a total cap buster.

I get that some of you, like myself, want Martin to remain a Cowboy, but all the hoping and wishing doesn't change the possible numbers or make it any more possible that Martin will sign a team friendly deal. Martin could play 2018 on the option year for 9.3 mil which is significantly more than he had been making AND then after the season when he becomes a free agent and in high demand a team could offer the same 25 mil signing bonus and 10 -12 mil a year salary starting the first season which would be 2019. So that's 44.3 - 46.3 mil that he would receive for 2018 and 2019 and is way way more than what he would get if signing a team friendly back end loaded contract some of you think he could and/or would do. This is what I was talking about when I've said that signing a team friendly back end loaded contract is leaving money on the table. Yes Martin could get that injury in 2018 but the odds are much higher that it happens if he has a 5 or 6 year deal or 5 or 6 times as many games and practices to deal with. None of us know what's going to happen but if it was me and I had a chance in 2 years to take home 44.3-46.3 mil dollars that is how I would go.
.

 

[gjkoeppen]

TRomo
TSmith
TFred
SLee
JWitten
OScan

all gave DAL a discount and worked with them throughout their contracts to help manage the cap

there is no reason ZMartin won't do the same but even a discount in 6/72m with 36m gtd

Your examples aren't quite telling everything. Each of those players signed contracts that were on par with other equivalent players at the time AND then at some other season went back later to restructure their contracts to free up cap space to help the team by turning salary into bonus money that would be spread out over the life of the contract. Before Romo's last restructuring he didn't have any bonus money for the last 2 years of his contract and then they did the salary bonus switch and low and behold there was then bonus money for the last 2 years of his contract. I'm not saying that whoever Martin signs a contract with that at some point he won't help his team by restructuring his contract but he'll be like 99.9% of the players and make sure he get as much as possible up front on the original contract. Also none of them can say they they were All pros EVERY year of their careers like Martin can.
.

 

[Verdict]

What Klein got would be the upper limits of what I would even think about paying him. Ideally, I'd like to get him for less than what NO got Klein for. However, $9.4MM in guarantees isn't that tough a pill to swallow. What I fear is a deal where they hand over like $14MM in guarantees and back load the hell out of it and three years from now, he has like an $8MM dead hit and is basically our 4th or 5th LB.

I don't think he is our 4th linebacker in terms of his quality of play. Right now he is our number two (behind Sean Lee) but he SHOULD be our 4th linebacker.

 

[Verdict]

I get that some of you, like myself, want Martin to remain a Cowboy, but all the hoping and wishing doesn't change the possible numbers or make it any more possible that Martin will sign a team friendly deal. Martin could play 2018 on the option year for 9.3 mil which is significantly more than he had been making AND then after the season when he becomes a free agent and in high demand a team could offer the same 25 mil signing bonus and 10 -12 mil a year salary starting the first season which would be 2019. So that's 44.3 - 46.3 mil that he would receive for 2018 and 2019 and is way way more than what he would get if signing a team friendly back end loaded contract some of you think he could and/or would do. This is what I was talking about when I've said that signing a team friendly back end loaded contract is leaving money on the table. Yes Martin could get that injury in 2018 but the odds are much higher that it happens if he has a 5 or 6 year deal or 5 or 6 times as many games and practices to deal with. None of us know what's going to happen but if it was me and I had a chance in 2 years to take home 44.3-46.3 mil dollars that is how I would go.
.

You say that but if you are Martin and suffer a career ending injury this year you just cost yourself about 30 million dollars.

 

[Verdict]

Again if you don't sign him you need to spend a premium pick on a LB because you can't go into next year relying on Lee and Smith.

Secondly if this team is going to build and progress you need to start keeping players that are productive and not let them go to be replaced by rookies or cheap free agents.

Anyhow who's to say a good deal can't be struck with Hitchens.
Most people last year assumed T Will would leave.

I am not naive about the fact that someone may be willing pay him more than we would. It could be significantly more. Just because that is what the market rate is on him doesn't mean that it's a good idea to match it.

If we can sign him as a middle tier backup (4th linebacker pay) that's reasonable and we shouldn't low ball him or play games. Sign him if he will sign for that.

 

[Verdict]

You might be right. But, it seems to me that if they're adverse to a back-end loaded contract because of the risk of not seeing the full contract, why would they not be just as adverse to playing this year with only 9.3m assured? What happens if he has a Shazier moment? Signing an extension this year for the same total money and same guaranteed money over all 6 years mitigates that risk to Martin, shifting it to the Cowboys.

Now, if you're argument is that the market will be higher then and, instead of the 5/35/75 contract you proposed, he gets a 5/45/90 contract, that might be a risk he's willing to take. But he and his agent would be risking 35m for the 10m increase in guaranteed money. Everyone is different, but that doesn't seem like a good risk / reward to me. The age old "bird in hand" idea.

One other thing to think about, the trade-off for a back-loaded salary (non-guaranteed) component is the signing bonus. In effect, that makes it a front-loaded contract. But even if he and his agent said they'll only go for a constant salary contract, using your 5/35/75 contract, the additional cap hit in year 1 vs. the 9.3m rookie option is only 5m more. Not insignificant, but not a total cap buster.

If Martin plays under the franchise tag he had better buy himself one hell of an insurance policy.

 

[Sydla]

You say that but if you are Martin and suffer a career ending injury this year you just cost yourself about 30 million dollars.

Plus he still shows a lack of understanding of how contracts work, etc.

For example, backloading a contract doesn’t mean pushing actual cash paid to Martin into later years. It’s mostly an accounting tool that helps minimize cap hits in early years.

His example is an exaggeration too. If a team guarantees him 35MM, he likely won’t get all 35MM at signing. It will be spread out over a signing bonus, and then things like guaranteed salaries in subsequent years.

So when he says Martin could walk with 44MM by 2019, that’s just not true.

 

[Sydla]

You say that but if you are Martin and suffer a career ending injury this year you just cost yourself about 30 million dollars.

If Martin and his agent believed what he’s trying to sell, they wouldn’t even be negotiating a deal now. They’d play out the season and hit FA next year.

But they aren’t stupid. They will gladly trade an non-guaranteed year for a large guaranteed contract like he’s likely going to get.

 

[Verdict]

I've never said he will definitely get a big contract somewhere. I've said if he's offered that somewhere, I wouldn't want the Cowboys to get into some bidding war and overpay for him. He's not good enough. And we all know, at times, teams do dumb things in free agency.

Personally, I think he's going to find there isn't as big a market for him as some around here seem to think. As the article linked here suggests, there might be one team that might put a premium on him - Indy with Eberflus.

Frankly, I would not be surprised to see him back on a pretty decent contract, which I have said all along, is fine by me.

I would not be surprised to see a team over pay him. He won't bomb anywhere he goes. He's solid. Some teams will want to pay some money to reach the cap floor. He is a low risk player that you know what you are getting when you sign him.

He is also solid enough that a team who is really close and has a hole at linebacker might use him to complete a defense. His ceiling isn't overly high but his floor is also high.

 

[Verdict]

No offense, but this just rationalizing away the foibles of this front office.

The Cowboys have the flexibility in their cap, if they want, to sign a Lawrence and then go out and sign a guy like Earl Thomas or Eric Reid or someone else.

Yeah. They can do what they want within reason but once you pay those guys and Zeke and Dak you are back in cap hell. This can't be viewed on a one year plan.

Quit over paying Dez and Witten and your margin for error becomes a lot greater.

 

[JustChip]

I get that some of you, like myself, want Martin to remain a Cowboy, but all the hoping and wishing doesn't change the possible numbers or make it any more possible that Martin will sign a team friendly deal. Martin could play 2018 on the option year for 9.3 mil which is significantly more than he had been making AND then after the season when he becomes a free agent and in high demand a team could offer the same 25 mil signing bonus and 10 -12 mil a year salary starting the first season which would be 2019. So that's 44.3 - 46.3 mil that he would receive for 2018 and 2019 and is way way more than what he would get if signing a team friendly back end loaded contract some of you think he could and/or would do. This is what I was talking about when I've said that signing a team friendly back end loaded contract is leaving money on the table. Yes Martin could get that injury in 2018 but the odds are much higher that it happens if he has a 5 or 6 year deal or 5 or 6 times as many games and practices to deal with. None of us know what's going to happen but if it was me and I had a chance in 2 years to take home 44.3-46.3 mil dollars that is how I would go.
.

I think you and I got off track somewhere. I'm not making a case that Martin should give a "hometown discount". Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought I read in one of your posts way back that we couldn't keep Martin because it would blow the salary cap. I'm just making the case that he can sign a market contract and it won't blow the cap.

Even if they gave him a 5 year deal now at 75m total on top of his rookie option of 9.3m (total of 6 yrs. and $84m) and structured it all as guaranteed, no salary component, the cap hit in 2018 would be less than $5m more than if he just played for the rookie option. They have the cap room to do that. But, the Cowboys wouldn't do that, at least I hope they don't, and they don't have to. But they can structure whatever deal so to work with this year's cap.

 

[JustChip]

If Martin plays under the franchise tag he had better buy himself one hell of an insurance policy.

Agreed.

 

[willia451]

Just saw our draft picks this year 3-4th's and 3-5th's. No way we do anything in FA IMO. Expect more bottom feeding.

The way 2017 went I'm sure you're right. We're in re-building mode especially on defense and have no idea what we have at QB. Not a good time to run out and grab a couple of high priced FAs.

To what end?

 

[jay94]

We have a few comp picks this coming draft, the difference between this coming draft and previous drafts is that we can trade them picks. I can see a move up or 2 in this coming draft.

What is a decent contract in your opinion?

 

[Verdict]

The way 2017 went I'm sure you're right. We're in re-building mode especially on defense and have no idea what we have at QB. Not a good time to run out and grab a couple of high priced FAs.

To what end?

We are closer to being "rebuilt" on defense than we were at this time last year.