I do not see any difference between that play and the Dez play in 2014 *merged*

[nathanlt]

Come on - merely looking around the field is common to the game. Breathing is common to the game. Falling is common to the game. You can make that standard as broad as you want, but the intent of the rule was not to make it that broad. I believe that's a big reason they added Item 1 to the rule - to say that when a player is going to the ground he is not in control of his body and actions to the point that he can make the kind of moves needed to establish possession, and therefore maintaining possession all the way through the play is required.

So, you realize that by not defining a narrow list of what a football move is, the rulebook writer opened it up to the broadest interpretation possible. If ANYTHING, (breathing included) fits the definition, then a football move was made.

The written rule, gives broadest support to Dez's 7 specific football moves, even beyond looking and breathing, which technically are the most common occurrences on the field.

You've just hit on the concrete evidence as to why Dez caught that ball. A lack of specificity in the rulebook, made that a catch!

 

[OmerV]

And what happens if they’re right 3 times?

If they are right 3 times they don't lose a timeout, but if they are wrong on the 3rd challenge they do, so it's still not a punishment to be right.

 

[DogFace]

What I think of that, and have said many times, is that's a matter of perception. If you feel Dez only went to the ground because of the contact, then case play Q.R. 8.12 would be applicable based on your perception. In that case it just means you and I perceived things differently. Of course, what really matters is what the refs perceived, and apparently after review they felt Dez was going to the ground regardless of contact.

What I meant was don’t you feel he was more off balance in the second picture?

Since he pulled out of that do you feel he could’ve pulled out of the Green Bay one? Do you feel the refs made a good judgement if they ruled that he couldn’t and, in their determination, that was the difference between the case and the Dez play?

I still don’t think the caseplay was meant for the refs to determine if contact that hadn’t happened yet was the reason for the fall or if he would’ve maintained balance without the contact.

I’m just wondering if this picture makes it more believable to you that he would’ve stayed upright since that was a big part of your decision that the caseplay was different.

 

[OmerV]

The rulebook says that Dez CAUGHT IT. BY RULE, DEZ CAUGHT IT. Most everyone thought it passed the eyeball test of what a catch always has been. The new rule book language at the time did not adequately describe a new rule that did away with football moves. Going to the ground never filled in all the blanks that the noncatch crowd thinks it did.

The non-catch crowd bases their argument on Blandino press conferences, not on the rulebook. (at least KJJ doesn't put emphasis on the rule book.)

Except the rule book doesn't say that, and the officials who are trained to enforce the rulebook didn't say that either.

 

[OmerV]

What I meant was don’t you feel he was more off balance in the second picture?

Since he pulled out of that do you feel he could’ve pulled out of the Green Bay one? Do you feel the refs made a good judgement if they ruled that he couldn’t and, in their determination, that was the difference between the case and the Dez play?

I still don’t think the caseplay was meant for the refs to determine if contact that hadn’t happened yet was the reason for the fall or if he would’ve maintained balance without the contact.

I’m just wondering if this picture makes it more believable to you that he would’ve stayed upright since that was a big part of your decision that the caseplay was different.

I'm not sure what the second picture is from. Or the 3rd picture. They don't appear to be the play we are talking about.

 

[BlindFaith]

@OmerV has maintained that he was not going to come out of the Green Bay play without falling whether he was contacted or not. Saying his balance was too far gone before contact.

His point in saying that was the caseplay said the player was going to the ground only from contact and that the refs/replay officials determined Dez was already going to the ground from a loss of balance and the contact, unlike the caseplay, was not a factor in him going to the ground.


This picture Percy posted shows Dez having far less of an upright position and appearing to be more off balance then he was before he was tripped by Shields. As the pics demonstrate.

I’ve said he would’ve stayed up if not for the trip. I feel these pics back up that him staying up without the trip was very likely.


Another question I can’t get an answer to:

One of the examples in the rule of completing the catch process is if the player has time to pitch the ball then he satisfies the time element. Do you feel Dez could’ve pitched the ball after he switched from two hands to one rather then attempting to reach?

Looking at a single still photo is a completely useless exercise. It's like posting a picture of me holding a gun and asking if I killed someone or not.

Dez was going to fall regardless of contact or not. That is my position and the NFLs. If you disagree so be it.

If you think that simply being able to pitch a ball is the same as regaining balance, then again, we have nothing further to discuss. You can reach or possibly pitch a ball while IN MIDAIR. In the most common sense you can possibly muster...do you really think a player can become a runner while in mid air? These actions can not be done in a vacuum to establish anything. That's why its the interruption of the fall or stay upright long enough that completes the actual catch process. The subsequent actions after this act contained in the case plays, ie the lunge, are there to show how the player got to the ground after regaining their balance. It is, after all, in the case play talking about going to the ground.

 

[kskboys]

Looking at a single still photo is a completely useless exercise. It's like posting a picture of me holding a gun and asking if I killed someone or not.

Dez was going to fall regardless of contact or not. That is my position and the NFLs. If you disagree so be it.

If you think that simply being able to pitch a ball is the same as regaining balance, then again, we have nothing further to discuss. You can reach or possibly pitch a ball while IN MIDAIR. In the most common sense you can possibly muster...do you really think a player can become a runner while in mid air? These actions can not be done in a vacuum to establish anything. That's why its the interruption of the fall or stay upright long enough that completes the actual catch process. The subsequent actions after this act contained in the case plays, ie the lunge, are there to show how the player got to the ground after regaining their balance. It is, after all, in the case play talking about going to the ground.

You're arguing against emotion. If these guys were Packers fans, they'd be arguing just as arduously that he didn't catch it and the call was correct. Doesn't matter what you say, how you argue, how many facts you bring up, it'll be the same.

Kinda entertaining in a sick way, though, hey?

 

[OmerV]

So, you realize that by not defining a narrow list of what a football move is, the rulebook writer opened it up to the broadest interpretation possible. If ANYTHING, (breathing included) fits the definition, then a football move was made.

The written rule, gives broadest support to Dez's 7 specific football moves, even beyond looking and breathing, which technically are the most common occurrences on the field.

You've just hit on the concrete evidence as to why Dez caught that ball. A lack of specificity in the rulebook, made that a catch!

Picking and choosing seems to be a common theme on your side of this discussion. I see you completely ignored my comments about Item 1. Hell, anyone can make any argument they want if they only pick and choose what they want and pretend everything else doesn't exist.

 

[OmerV]

You're arguing against emotion. If these guys were Packers fans, they'd be arguing just as arduously that he didn't catch it and the call was correct. Doesn't matter what you say, how you argue, how many facts you bring up, it'll be the same.

Kinda entertaining in a sick way, though, hey?

This hit the nail on the head. Emotion often overrides reason, but Hell, it's the offseason without anything particularly exciting happening with the Cowboys, so why not hash through a topic we will never actually agree on?

 

[BlindFaith]

So, you realize that by not defining a narrow list of what a football move is, the rulebook writer opened it up to the broadest interpretation possible. If ANYTHING, (breathing included) fits the definition, then a football move was made.

The written rule, gives broadest support to Dez's 7 specific football moves, even beyond looking and breathing, which technically are the most common occurrences on the field.

You've just hit on the concrete evidence as to why Dez caught that ball. A lack of specificity in the rulebook, made that a catch!

Good to see you've moved past that simply putting a foot on the ground while falling is actually the completed act of going to the ground. But you do realize that your credibility on anything you say now is suspect at least regarding any actual knowledge of the rules themselves.

At least catch up with the latest narrative being shoveled out. That Dez, in a still photo, "clearly" had regained his balance. Or if you like, that he would have not gone to the ground unless he was tripped. Even your band leaders are shying away from him making 7 moves while falling means he gathered himself.

 

[kskboys]

Picking and choosing seems to be a common theme on your side of this discussion. I see you completely ignored my comments about Item 1. Hell, anyone can make any argument they want if they only pick and choose what they want and pretend everything else doesn't exist.

You just described the last 109 pages!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[LACowboysFan1]

I had always been of the opinion that it was a catch.

But just to be fair, I went back and watched the video of the play about 20 times, and I've changed my mind, BUT it's changed because of what I SEE as what happened.

Which is there was no "lunge" BASED OFF A CATCH, Dez's going to the ground was part of his being in the air and falling towards the end zone when he made the catch, AND as someone here noted, the defensive back hit the ball while Dez was in the air, necessitating Dez to re-secure the ball, which further reinforces the fact that Dez was going to the ground in that process, and as the ball came loose when he hit the ground, it's not a catch BASED ON THE RULE.

And before anybody starts arguing with me about steps, etc., don't bother.

Because though my opinion now rests with the reviewed call on the field, it doesn't matter, because the game is over and done with, we can't go back in time and re-play the game.

Time for this thread to end....

 

[DallasEast]

This hit the nail on the head. Emotion often overrides reason, but Hell, it's the offseason without anything particularly exciting happening with the Cowboys, so why not hash through a topic we will never actually agree on?

[Bold] ...because there are a number of other topics distributed through multiple sub forums to participate in instead of within this singular thread?

 

[MarcusRock]

You're arguing against emotion. If these guys were Packers fans, they'd be arguing just as arduously that he didn't catch it and the call was correct. Doesn't matter what you say, how you argue, how many facts you bring up, it'll be the same.

Kinda entertaining in a sick way, though, hey?

That's why I'm here! It's also why I like meeting conspiracy theorists with logic just to see what happens.

 

[OmerV]

[Bold] ...because there are a number of other topics distributed through multiple sub forums to participate in instead of within this singular thread?

Not much is catching my eye. Like I said, not much exciting happening in the offseason so far.

 

[DallasEast]

Nothing else is catching my eye. Like I said, nothing else is as exciting as this thread happening in the offseason so far.

Fixed.

 

[kskboys]

Not much is catching my eye. Like I said, not much exciting happening in the offseason so far.

I can't believe you're not out there disputing JG sucks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[kskboys]

An old song comes to mind when looking at how you guys feel about this thread:

"I can't liiiiiiiiiiiiiivvvvveeeeee, if living is w/o yooooouuuuu!!!!!"

 

[MarcusRock]

The rulebook says that Dez CAUGHT IT. BY RULE, DEZ CAUGHT IT. Most everyone thought it passed the eyeball test of what a catch always has been. The new rule book language at the time did not adequately describe a new rule that did away with football moves. Going to the ground never filled in all the blanks that the noncatch crowd thinks it did.

The non-catch crowd bases their argument on Blandino press conferences, not on the rulebook. (at least KJJ doesn't put emphasis on the rule book.)

Have you not seen me ask a question to percy now 5 times with no response regarding any "rule change" to cover things up? Why do you think he doesn't want to have that discussion? He also avoided the question of whether Dez' intent to lunge looked ANYTHING like a regular lunge from other video clips posted in all these recent discussions. So now still photography is the way to prove motion and momentum.

As for the rulebook, people who brought these case plays to light beat their chest about bringing them but sure as Hades can't explain them when questioned. That's telling. So who cares about eyeball test? The eyeballs didn't see the ball touch the ground either. That's why replay is there to help and it did what it was designed for.

 

[aria]

If they are right 3 times they don't lose a timeout, but if they are wrong on the 3rd challenge they do, so it's still not a punishment to be right.

But do they run out of challenges if they are right 3 times?