Twitter: Competition Committee says Dez caught it **merged**

percyhoward

Research Tool
Messages
17,062
Reaction score
21,861
An excerpt from Blandino's video "Explaining the Calvin Johnson Rule." This is NOT someone describing how "going to the ground" subordinates the catch process. It's someone describing how the completion of the catch process determines whether a player who is going to the ground has to maintain possession when he hits the ground. It's all about the catch process.

"We've worked really hard to educate people in terms of the catch process. It seems like we're talking about a Calvin Johnson play every season but I guess when you catch as many passes as he does, it's bound to happen.

1:43 Let's look at the Week 1 play from the Minnesota-Detroit game where Calvin is going to the ground in the process of making the catch.

The process of the catch is a three-part process: control, two feet down, and then have the ball long enough to perform an act common to the game. If you can perform all three parts in that order, you have a catch. If not, and you're going to the ground, you must control the ball when you hit the ground.

2:09 Watch what happens when Calvin hits the ground. The ball comes loose. He did not have both feet down prior to reaching for the goal line, so this is all one process. This is an incomplete pass."


Why would it matter that he did not have both feet down prior to the reach, if the reach wouldn't have mattered anyway?

Obviously, the reach mattered.


Blandino says you gotta have control, two feet down, and an act common to the game. It's a three-part process, and it has to be in that order. Then he explains that Johnson was going to the ground while still in that process, because he didn't perform the steps in the correct order. He hasn't completed it. He needed to get two feet down before the act common to the game, which was the reach.

He doesn't say Johnson needed to be upright.
He doesn't say Johnson needed to gather himself.
He never uses the word "lunge," even once.

He never mentions the catch process as being "trumped" or subordinated by Johnson's fall. In fact, just the opposite. He's analyzing Johnson's actions all through the fall, to see whether he completes the three-part process.

This is cut and dried.
 

MarcusRock

Well-Known Member
Messages
13,891
Reaction score
16,176
The James and Ertz plays happened long after the 2015 rule change that required that a player remain "upright long enough" to be a runner.

Which is a lie. The rule did not change. Becoming a runner is outlined in part (c) of Article 3. You compare part (c) 2014 with language in Item 1 in 2015, which is a descriptor of a player considered to be going to the ground. Why don't you compare both part (c) portions of the rules? To create your lie that is not supported anywhere else other than from your keyboard. This is the question you still haven't answered me from the other thread. Where is your support that the rule "changed?" I have support that it didn't as I said:

http://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/...anges-and-points-of-emphasis-to-watch-in-2015
"Let's be clear. The rule that disallowed an apparent catch by Dallas Cowboys receiver Dez Bryant in the NFC divisional playoffs, and another by Detroit Lions receiver Calvin Johnson in 2009, remains unchanged in substance. The NFL did modify its wording, however, in hopes of making the rule make more sense to players, fans and media members in cases where a player is falling while in the process of making a catch."

http://www.dallascowboys.com/news/2...hange-catch-rule-after-dez-bryant-controversy
"To put it bluntly, the rule itself has not changed."

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/...rule-and-it-might-actually-be-more-confusing/
"The interesting part here is that Dez Bryant's no-catch, the thing that sparked the rule change, would still be a no-catch under the new rule."

Where is your support for your "story?"

The video we're talking about is from 2013, when players could still complete the catch process by performing an act common to the game, even while falling. In this case, that act is reaching for the goal line.

They could in 2015 as well, courtesy of the case play you wish to avoid: A.R. 8.12, where there's proof for a lunge and proof against "switching hands." So where is your proof for a reach from the rule book?

In the video, Blandino says that in the NFL there's a 3-part catch process, then he describes the process. You say the catch process didn't apply to players who were going to the ground in 2013-14. But if the catch process didn't apply to players who were going to the ground, there would be absolutely no reason to describe the catch process in a video that's intended to educate people on the "going to the ground" rule. It would be completely out of place in such a presentation.

"The catch process" is the 3-part process (parts a, b, c) AND going to the ground (Item 1) if you don't complete the 3-part process. Why would you describe one without the other if they're connected in this way?

Instead, the presenter would say things like, "It all depends on how upright you are," or "you have to stay upright for a certain amount of time in order to be considered a runner," or even "Your momentum can't be taking you to the ground." Basically, the things you're saying. Blandino doesn't say anything like that in his self-described explanation of the going to the ground rule. Why not?

I just outlined how the 2 parts are intertwined and are logically presented together so what you think Blandino would say is based on a false premise.

Because he's trying to explain to fans what a player must do, in 2013, in order to complete the catch process while going to the ground.

No, he's comparing 2 separate examples that took place in consecutive weeks during the 2013 season and outlined how each played out. He clearly labels Johnson as going to the ground at the outset and compared it to Julius Thomas who was not going to the ground. Should he have called Thomas "upright" here? I mean, that's what one would say, right? Lol.

And his explanation in the tutorial is consistent with his explanation on the day of the catch that the reach would have completed the catch process if it had been with two hands. Again, why describe the ideal reach that would make it a catch, if the reach wouldn't have made it a catch? There's no logic there.

Except it wasn't him who said reach. The interviewer did and he replied by saying they "looked at that aspect of it" which is part (c) of the rule that Dez did not complete then described that it needed to be more demonstrative than it was. You ignored it from my last post but you agreed HERE in this post. Did you not?

And again, both in the explanation of the Johnson play and the Dez play, why not just say the reach didn't matter? According to you the main point is that the reach did not matter. The bottom line is that you're saying the reach didn't matter, and Blandino is saying it did matter. (from the season before the overturn up until 24 hours after the overturn, when he stopped talking about the reach altogether).

Because he never brought up "reach" in the first place. The interviewer did. He simply described what happened and explained what needed to happen for it to be a catch under the rules.
===============

So when do I get my questions answered?
Where is support for your "theory" that the rule changed in 2015?
Where in the rules do you find a reach, "switching hands" or other acts ending going to the ground?
Do you agree with Blandino (and Pereira) that Dez' reach was nothing like other demonstrative acts including the video you bring up?​
 

MarcusRock

Well-Known Member
Messages
13,891
Reaction score
16,176
An excerpt from Blandino's video "Explaining the Calvin Johnson Rule." This is NOT someone describing how "going to the ground" subordinates the catch process. It's someone describing how the completion of the catch process determines whether a player who is going to the ground has to maintain possession when he hits the ground. It's all about the catch process.

"We've worked really hard to educate people in terms of the catch process. It seems like we're talking about a Calvin Johnson play every season but I guess when you catch as many passes as he does, it's bound to happen.

1:43 Let's look at the Week 1 play from the Minnesota-Detroit game where Calvin is going to the ground in the process of making the catch.

The process of the catch is a three-part process: control, two feet down, and then have the ball long enough to perform an act common to the game. If you can perform all three parts in that order, you have a catch. If not, and you're going to the ground, you must control the ball when you hit the ground.

2:09 Watch what happens when Calvin hits the ground. The ball comes loose. He did not have both feet down prior to reaching for the goal line, so this is all one process. This is an incomplete pass."


Why would it matter that he did not have both feet down prior to the reach, if the reach wouldn't have mattered anyway?

Obviously, the reach mattered.


Blandino says you gotta have control, two feet down, and an act common to the game. It's a three-part process, and it has to be in that order. Then he explains that Johnson was going to the ground while still in that process, because he didn't perform the steps in the correct order. He hasn't completed it. He needed to get two feet down before the act common to the game, which was the reach.

He doesn't say Johnson needed to be upright.
He doesn't say Johnson needed to gather himself.
He never uses the word "lunge," even once.

He never mentions the catch process as being "trumped" or subordinated by Johnson's fall. In fact, just the opposite. He's analyzing Johnson's actions all through the fall, to see whether he completes the three-part process.

This is cut and dried.

You analyze Johnson all the way to the ground because direct from each of the case plays here, if you lunge you can escape going to the ground (in 2014 and 2015 per A.R. 8.12). Did Blandino say that Johnson could have escaped going to the ground had he gotten 2 feet down or was he again, just describing what was happening in this example that came up early in 2013 as a player that was deemed going to the ground so he could compare it to someone who wasn't going to the ground? He wasn't establishing rules here, he was explaining them from two examples that just happened in NFL play. You're attempting to draw conclusions of rule establishment for something that was solely meant as an example.
 

blindzebra

Well-Known Member
Messages
12,557
Reaction score
4,446
You analyze Johnson all the way to the ground because direct from each of the case plays here, if you lunge you can escape going to the ground (in 2014 and 2015 per A.R. 8.12). Did Blandino say that Johnson could have escaped going to the ground had he gotten 2 feet down or was he again, just describing what was happening in this example that came up early in 2013 as a player that was deemed going to the ground so he could compare it to someone who wasn't going to the ground? He wasn't establishing rules here, he was explaining them from two examples that just happened in NFL play. You're attempting to draw conclusions of rule establishment for something that was solely meant as an example.
You mean like you are doing with that case play?
 

gimmesix

Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life
Messages
37,914
Reaction score
34,937
Percy Howard is killing it.

Good for Percy. I gave up because I got tired of beating my head against that wall. It's not worth it.

The best way to stop this noise is with silence. I'm just glad the catch rule might be changed so maybe we won't have these debates anymore.
 
Last edited:

tyke1doe

Well-Known Member
Messages
53,664
Reaction score
32,040
So did they reverse the ruling and award the Cowboys a victory in that game?

That's what I thought. I'm glad they're clarifying the rule. On to 2018.
 

MarcusRock

Well-Known Member
Messages
13,891
Reaction score
16,176
You mean like you are doing with that case play?

Case plays (plural) are IN the rule book. How am I using them as rule establishment when they are IN the rule book to support the actual rules? And you two are the ones who brought them as "proof" that one could complete a catch on the way to the ground. Yes, that's true: if you lunge. So say both of them no matter what gibberish you were trying to use to explain them in the other thread where I corrected you. So again, show me where a reach completes a catch as an act common to the game, because I can show you where the "switching hands" act doesn't in the one case play that most resembles the Dez play and that you two never seem to want to look at and avoid that it was in the 2014 rules and the 2015 rules proving the rule never changed.
 

blindzebra

Well-Known Member
Messages
12,557
Reaction score
4,446
Case plays (plural) are IN the rule book. How am I using them as rule establishment when they are IN the rule book to support the actual rules? And you two are the ones who brought them as "proof" that one could complete a catch on the way to the ground. Yes, that's true: if you lunge. So say both of them no matter what gibberish you were trying to use to explain them in the other thread where I corrected you. So again, show me where a reach completes a catch as an act common to the game, because I can show you where the "switching hands" act doesn't in the one case play that most resembles the Dez play and that you two never seem to want to look at and avoid that it was in the 2014 rules and the 2015 rules proving the rule never changed.
One more time.
Case plays are examples of ONE POSSIBLE SCENARIO. I love how you keep saying only lunge without explaining why other acts common to the game are listed and LUNGE ISN'T LISTED AT ALL.
The fact that it remained in 2015 is telling in one major way, and not what you think, because as described the player in that case play did not become a runner before he went to the ground. 8.12 contradicts upright long enough.
 

MarcusRock

Well-Known Member
Messages
13,891
Reaction score
16,176
One more time.
Case plays are examples of ONE POSSIBLE SCENARIO. I love how you keep saying only lunge without explaining why other acts common to the game are listed and LUNGE ISN'T LISTED AT ALL.
The fact that it remained in 2015 is telling in one major way, and not what you think, because as described the player in that case play did not become a runner before he went to the ground. 8.12 contradicts upright long enough.

Show me what "other acts common to the game" allow a player to complete the catch process on the way to the ground from the rules then because the opposite is true in the 8.12 case play as I keep saying. Or are you saying "one can assume" they do but it's not explicitly written anywhere. I don't have an assumption, I have a solid scenario in the case play that directly opposes your "one can assume" stance if that's what it is.

And why would a case play remain in the rule book that contradicts part of the going to the ground rule when they re-worded the actual rule and other case plays?
 

blindzebra

Well-Known Member
Messages
12,557
Reaction score
4,446
Show me what "other acts common to the game" allow a player to complete the catch process on the way to the ground from the rules then because the opposite is true in the 8.12 case play as I keep saying. Or are you saying "one can assume" they do but it's not explicitly written anywhere. I don't have an assumption, I have a solid scenario in the case play that directly opposes your "one can assume" stance if that's what it is.

And why would a case play remain in the rule book that contradicts part of the going to the ground rule when they re-worded the actual rule and other case plays?
Just as expected you dodged it once again.
 

nobody

Well-Known Member
Messages
10,438
Reaction score
18,554
If it is indeed them admitting it was a catch under the rules at the time, then that's something. If it was what they said twisted by the media, that's another.

If it was indeed a catch, and any time the NFL screws up and screws over a team like that, then they should award compensation draft picks since they can't go back and redo things. I'm going to go to my grave believing it was a catch, but I'm tired of it. That among other things really helped to kill my love of the game.
 

MarcusRock

Well-Known Member
Messages
13,891
Reaction score
16,176
It has been answered numerous times. We get the act. Spin, misrepresent, copy and paste, ask the same questions, pretend to be the winner, yell conspiracy, rinse and repeat.

No you didn't answer. That was when you tried to retreat to your poll when I brought up where I corrected you.
 

blindzebra

Well-Known Member
Messages
12,557
Reaction score
4,446
No you didn't answer. That was when you tried to retreat to your poll when I brought up where I corrected you.
Sure it was, for one you'd need to be correct to have corrected me, and you aren't.
Gonna accept the poll challenge, or continue to just run your mouth? Put up or shut up time.
 

MarcusRock

Well-Known Member
Messages
13,891
Reaction score
16,176
Sure it was, for one you'd need to be correct to have corrected me, and you aren't.
Gonna accept the poll challenge, or continue to just run your mouth? Put up or shut up time.

I run my mouth because you don't answer the questions. So I have to keep asking. If nothing else it just shows that you don't have answers.

And why would I need validation in the form of some poll which was just a silly diversion tactic to begin with which is in your history to do when hemmed in or embarrassed? Save it for voting on uniform colors or something and not for emotional support for a weak argument you can't defend on your own.
 

blindzebra

Well-Known Member
Messages
12,557
Reaction score
4,446
I run my mouth because you don't answer the questions. So I have to keep asking. If nothing else it just shows that you don't have answers.

And why would I need validation in the form of some poll which was just a silly diversion tactic to begin with which is in your history to do when hemmed in or embarrassed? Save it for voting on uniform colors or something and not for emotional support for a weak argument you can't defend on your own.
Arrogance and ignorance is a deadly combo. All of your questions have been answered, you just don't like the answer you got, because like all of your weak argument you have no response. Just because you think you were a big fish in that little pond you came from doesn't cut it here, where we all can see you are nothing but a guppie.
 
Top