Too much focus on Safety here. bigger issues

[blueblood70]

way way too much disdain for the draft and FA on safety as our DB and defense most of the year weren't the issue..Yes we lost the Rams game because we couldn't stop the run, that was coach and team loss BUT...,

I realize our offense changed after the Bye and Cooper and other changes were made but our biggest change needed is to SCORE MORE TDS, period..

our offense was the issue as they finished basically 22nd overall in just about every category other then rushing.. we need more scoring to help when the d falters, to stop playing games where it comes down to the last drive ie win or lose by one score or less..I want to see more aggression and more attempts at deep scoring attempts and that starts with the OC..

It why we changed to Moore, anything has to eb an improvement, let RSmith go and got some new Backs, yes even another Guard early didnt make much sense but if the Fo is looking ahead that once the season gets started maybe the Oline will need tweaking at LG and RT and now we have options.. Can Cobb help, maybe and Witten back at least adds depth with experience and in tight games or keep his legs fresh until the big games come up that cant be bad thing..WE also added speed with some FA College kids and maybe TA stays healthy.. more movable parts and options to have creative offensive packages to help Moore and this offense.

Id say second is non special, special teams, maybe a healthy Tavon , Pollard, weber, cobb, and again more aggression helps shorten the field for the offense..
those are two very glaring issues they are trying to fix while half this forum is complaining about the Safety postion. I see what the FO is trying to do and its the right thing IMO

 

[Sydla]

The pass defense was bottom half of the league last year. They weren't very good at defending the pass even with Jones having a great year at the one CB spot. A big reason for that was safety play.

You want to make this an elite level defense? Get better in the secondary (whether that means add better players or get more out of your existing guys).

 

[Doc50]

Hey, we just miss Woodson, and it's been a while.

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

way way too much disdain for the draft and FA on safety as our DB and defense most of the year weren't the issue..Yes we lost the Rams game because we couldn't stop the run, that was coach and team loss BUT...,

I realize our offense changed after the Bye and Cooper and other changes were made but our biggest change needed is to SCORE MORE TDS, period..

our offense was the issue as they finished basically 22nd overall in just about every category other then rushing.. we need more scoring to help when the d falters, to stop playing games where it comes down to the last drive ie win or lose by one score or less..I want to see more aggression and more attempts at deep scoring attempts and that starts with the OC..

It why we changed to Moore, anything has to eb an improvement, let RSmith go and got some new Backs, yes even another Guard early didnt make much sense but if the Fo is looking ahead that once the season gets started maybe the Oline will need tweaking at LG and RT and now we have options.. Can Cobb help, maybe and Witten back at least adds depth with experience and in tight games or keep his legs fresh until the big games come up that cant be bad thing..WE also added speed with some FA College kids and maybe TA stays healthy.. more movable parts and options to have creative offensive packages to help Moore and this offense.

Id say second is non special, special teams, maybe a healthy Tavon , Pollard, weber, cobb, and again more aggression helps shorten the field for the offense..
those are two very glaring issues they are trying to fix while half this forum is complaining about the Safety postion. I see what the FO is trying to do and its the right thing IMO

that's not an unfair point. I think our redzone offense struggled a lot. few Ints Dak threw in the endzone and too many field goals instead of TDs

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

The pass defense was bottom half of the league last year. They weren't very good at defending the pass even with Jones having a great year at the one CB spot. A big reason for that was safety play.

You want to make this an elite level defense? Get better in the secondary (whether that means add better players or get more out of your existing guys).

simply not true. our pass defense was ranked 13th.

in the last 4 games we faced 3 top 10 passing teams and #11& 12 passing teams in the league.......

I am not saying we don't need to improve on safety, but pressure up front is key. give any QB time and they will shred a secondary unless you have deion sanders and revis in the DB field. Elite defenses start up front on the DL.

 

[blueblood70]

The pass defense was bottom half of the league last year. They weren't very good at defending the pass even with Jones having a great year at the one CB spot. A big reason for that was safety play.

You want to make this an elite level defense? Get better in the secondary (whether that means add better players or get more out of your existing guys).

again sure would be nice but none of those picks were guarantees to fix heaths spot or replace woods, we brought in Iloka and draft pick have Frazier and again my point is we need to score more, period way more important then a safety.. we wanted ERT he was asking way too much we move on..lets score more take pressure off defense, shorter fields from ST , take pressure off defense.. Signing Tank , getting Hill regardless of what you think of that pick, Quinn, our LB core etc etc will help the backend be better..IMO Safety was our 3rd need and I like what they did, sure would have loved a safety upgrade but its my post sharing my opinion. Ive already heard all the naysayers and complainers about safety, time to have different discussion..go back to the 15 post draft no safety hate threads..plenty of them..

 

[blueblood70]

simply not true. our pass defense was ranked 13th.

in the last 4 games we faced 3 top 10 passing teams and #11& 12 passing teams in the league.......

I am not saying we don't need to improve on safety, but pressure up front is key. give any QB time and they will shred a secondary unless you have deion sanders and revis in the DB field. Elite defenses start up front on the DL.

exactly they made choice they got Tank back, Quinn on the other side, Hill in the draft, Healthy Crawford and Woods, Taco for depth, Gregory will be bonus but not counted on, and will work on better pressure so the backend doesnt have to be elite , For Now.. Lets score more, play better ST, and pressure the QB even more..

 

[Sydla]

simply not true. our pass defense was ranked 13th.

in the last 4 games we faced 3 top 10 passing teams and #11& 12 passing teams in the league.......

I am not saying we don't need to improve on safety, but pressure up front is key. give any QB time and they will shred a secondary unless you have deion sanders and revis in the DB field. Elite defenses start up front on the DL.

In yards per game they were 13th.

Now chew on these:

Opposing passer rating - 22nd
Interceptions - 26th
Opposing completion % - 29th
Football Outsiders Pass D - 16th

In terms of measuring the effectiveness of our pass D, we were a bottom half of the league pass D. QBs, as evidenced by Passer Ratings, Completion percentage and Football Outsiders show that QBs largely had good success against us through the air.

Now contrast that with the Bears, who were considered the "elite" defense in the league.

Passer Rating - 1st
Football Outsiders Pass D - 1st
Interceptions - 1st
Completion % - 3rd

 

[Stash]

Why does improving red zone offense mean we can't improve at safety?

 

[Hennessy_King]

In yards per game they were 13th.

Now chew on these:

Opposing passer rating - 22nd
Interceptions - 26th
Opposing completion % - 29th
Football Outsiders Pass D - 16th

In terms of measuring the effectiveness of our pass D, we were a bottom half of the league pass D. QBs, as evidenced by Passer Ratings, Completion percentage and Football Outsiders show that QBs largely had good success against us through the air.

Now contrast that with the Bears, who were considered the "elite" defense in the league.

Passer Rating - 1st
Football Outsiders Pass D - 1st
Interceptions - 1st
Completion % - 3rd

We have been this way for as long as I can remember. In a passing league your emphasis should be on a good secondary. They can all say creating pressure blah blah blah. But if you create pressure and guys are open it doesn't matter. Hence why our D line also had the 6th worst sack % last year. WRs being open before they can get to the QB.

 

[Hennessy_King]

again sure would be nice but none of those picks were guarantees to fix heaths spot or replace woods, we brought in Iloka and draft pick have Frazier and again my point is we need to score more, period way more important then a safety.. we wanted ERT he was asking way too much we move on..lets score more take pressure off defense, shorter fields from ST , take pressure off defense.. Signing Tank , getting Hill regardless of what you think of that pick, Quinn, our LB core etc etc will help the backend be better..IMO Safety was our 3rd need and I like what they did, sure would have loved a safety upgrade but its my post sharing my opinion. Ive already heard all the naysayers and complainers about safety, time to have different discussion..go back to the 15 post draft no safety hate threads..plenty of them..

Thornhill would have absolutely taken Heath's spot. Better safety play also helps the entire secondary, lbs, and d line. If players aren't open QBs will hold onto the ball helping the D line.

 

[Verdict]

way way too much disdain for the draft and FA on safety as our DB and defense most of the year weren't the issue..Yes we lost the Rams game because we couldn't stop the run, that was coach and team loss BUT...,

I realize our offense changed after the Bye and Cooper and other changes were made but our biggest change needed is to SCORE MORE TDS, period..

our offense was the issue as they finished basically 22nd overall in just about every category other then rushing.. we need more scoring to help when the d falters, to stop playing games where it comes down to the last drive ie win or lose by one score or less..I want to see more aggression and more attempts at deep scoring attempts and that starts with the OC..

It why we changed to Moore, anything has to eb an improvement, let RSmith go and got some new Backs, yes even another Guard early didnt make much sense but if the Fo is looking ahead that once the season gets started maybe the Oline will need tweaking at LG and RT and now we have options.. Can Cobb help, maybe and Witten back at least adds depth with experience and in tight games or keep his legs fresh until the big games come up that cant be bad thing..WE also added speed with some FA College kids and maybe TA stays healthy.. more movable parts and options to have creative offensive packages to help Moore and this offense.

Id say second is non special, special teams, maybe a healthy Tavon , Pollard, weber, cobb, and again more aggression helps shorten the field for the offense..
those are two very glaring issues they are trying to fix while half this forum is complaining about the Safety postion. I see what the FO is trying to do and its the right thing IMO

Witten will be a liability, except on short yardage and goal line.

 

[jazzcat22]

Why does improving red zone offense mean we can't improve at safety?

Always has to be one in the crowd to make sense.

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

In yards per game they were 13th.

Now chew on these:

Opposing passer rating - 22nd
Interceptions - 26th
Opposing completion % - 29th
Football Outsiders Pass D - 16th

In terms of measuring the effectiveness of our pass D, we were a bottom half of the league pass D. QBs, as evidenced by Passer Ratings, Completion percentage and Football Outsiders show that QBs largely had good success against us through the air.

Now contrast that with the Bears, who were considered the "elite" defense in the league.

Passer Rating - 1st
Football Outsiders Pass D - 1st
Interceptions - 1st
Completion % - 3rd

there is lies, there is damn lies and then there is statistics......not sure why you bring up Chicago, since we initially were discussing a safety helping the pass defense, vs. I think having a DT who can bring more pressure, sacks.........as well as that the dallas pass defense isn't as bad as you outlined..... I would rather have improved both, but if I had to choose, I choose DL

Chicago in this conversation is irrelevant..... they were a very good defense at all levels...and is Chicago being #1....is because they had great safety play? or was it their play in the front 7? btw, Chicago was 3rd in sacks......we were 16th.....

passer rating alone is meaningless... completion percentage alone is meaningless.....there was certain philosophy in dallas with the defense we had for the personnel that we had......dallas was giving up a lot of short, and underneath stuff....keep the plays in front of you, make the offense drive the length of the field, capitalize when you can......we were 7th in giving up plays of 40+ yards...which means we didn't give up many big pass plays...furthermore, we were 6th in giving up pass plays of 20+ yards....the stats you showed and this supports the philosophy.... dallas was tough inside the redzone, and in giving up TDs.... we were 6th in giving up TDs.....

in the last 4 games, we only had 6 sacks.......and gave up 1050 yards passing.....,.....also in those games, the average pass completion percentage..64%, average passer rating 96....

more pressure up front, more sacks, better pass defense.....and I think that's why we drafted Hill over a safety....Hill, fits the defensive philosophy and the type of DT we need at 3T that should bring more consistent pressure...

can pass defense improve? yes. I think better play on the DL will help more than adding a safety........

 

[Ranched]

way way too much disdain for the draft and FA on safety as those are while half this forum is complaining about the Safety postion. I see what the FO is trying to do and its the right thing IMO

That's because safeties often lead their teams in getting turnovers. Dallas hasn't had more than 3 INTs from any safety in a long time. Add in the fact that Byron Jones seems allergic to INTs and it's not a pretty picture.

Somehow, someway, that has to change. Makes me wonder why you don't think Dallas has a big problem at that position. And thus the reason why, "half this forum is complaining about the Safety postion".

 

[Sydla]

there is lies, there is damn lies and then there is statistics......not sure why you bring up Chicago, since we initially were discussing a safety helping the pass defense, vs. I think having a DT who can bring more pressure, sacks.........as well as that the dallas pass defense isn't as bad as you outlined..... I would rather have improved both, but if I had to choose, I choose DL

Chicago in this conversation is irrelevant..... they were a very good defense at all levels...and is Chicago being #1....is because they had great safety play? or was it their play in the front 7? btw, Chicago was 3rd in sacks......we were 16th.....

passer rating alone is meaningless... completion percentage alone is meaningless.....there was certain philosophy in dallas with the defense we had for the personnel that we had......dallas was giving up a lot of short, and underneath stuff....keep the plays in front of you, make the offense drive the length of the field, capitalize when you can......we were 7th in giving up plays of 40+ yards...which means we didn't give up many big pass plays...furthermore, we were 6th in giving up pass plays of 20+ yards....the stats you showed and this supports the philosophy.... dallas was tough inside the redzone, and in giving up TDs.... we were 6th in giving up TDs.....

in the last 4 games, we only had 6 sacks.......and gave up 1050 yards passing.....,.....also in those games, the average pass completion percentage..64%, average passer rating 96....

more pressure up front, more sacks, better pass defense.....and I think that's why we drafted Hill over a safety....Hill, fits the defensive philosophy and the type of DT we need at 3T that should bring more consistent pressure...

can pass defense improve? yes. I think better play on the DL will help more than adding a safety........

I brought up Chicago because the premise I stated initially was that despite people trying to state that the pass D is good, it is not. It's largely below league average and that's partially due to average to poor safety play. And that if you want to be an ELITE DEFENSE, the pass D has to get much better. Hence the comparison to Chicago - they were the ELITE defense in the NFL last year and their pass D in critical efficiency measures was SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER than ours.

There's the point. Oh and while the Bears were better at rushing the QB, only a fool wouldn't acknowledge they got way better safety play than we did and Eddie Jackson and Amos were better than what we ran out in Dallas.

Yards per game is a horrendous measure of a pass D's efficiency and frankly, 13th is a lot closer to average than it is to being really good anyway.

The secondary has holes. You can continue to believe they are fine and great and all that, only to be let down by a mediocre pass rush. They need Awuzie to play better and they need someone to play better than Heath did at SS. He's not a starting SS in this league, especially if you are projecting this defense to make the next step and be a truly dominant defense.

 

[ondaedg]

way way too much disdain for the draft and FA on safety as our DB and defense most of the year weren't the issue..Yes we lost the Rams game because we couldn't stop the run, that was coach and team loss BUT...,

I realize our offense changed after the Bye and Cooper and other changes were made but our biggest change needed is to SCORE MORE TDS, period..

our offense was the issue as they finished basically 22nd overall in just about every category other then rushing.. we need more scoring to help when the d falters, to stop playing games where it comes down to the last drive ie win or lose by one score or less..I want to see more aggression and more attempts at deep scoring attempts and that starts with the OC..

It why we changed to Moore, anything has to eb an improvement, let RSmith go and got some new Backs, yes even another Guard early didnt make much sense but if the Fo is looking ahead that once the season gets started maybe the Oline will need tweaking at LG and RT and now we have options.. Can Cobb help, maybe and Witten back at least adds depth with experience and in tight games or keep his legs fresh until the big games come up that cant be bad thing..WE also added speed with some FA College kids and maybe TA stays healthy.. more movable parts and options to have creative offensive packages to help Moore and this offense.

Id say second is non special, special teams, maybe a healthy Tavon , Pollard, weber, cobb, and again more aggression helps shorten the field for the offense..
those are two very glaring issues they are trying to fix while half this forum is complaining about the Safety postion. I see what the FO is trying to do and its the right thing IMO

9 INTs and allowing 67% completion rate is putrid. It's a pretty big deal hence people making a big deal out of the draft. Makes perfect sense to me.

 

[ondaedg]

I brought up Chicago because the premise I stated initially was that despite people trying to state that the pass D is good, it is not. It's largely below league average and that's partially due to average to poor safety play. And that if you want to be an ELITE DEFENSE, the pass D has to get much better. Hence the comparison to Chicago - they were the ELITE defense in the NFL last year and their pass D in critical efficiency measures was SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER than ours.

There's the point. Oh and while the Bears were better at rushing the QB, only a fool wouldn't acknowledge they got way better safety play than we did and Eddie Jackson and Amos were better than what we ran out in Dallas.

Yards per game is a horrendous measure of a pass D's efficiency and frankly, 13th is a lot closer to average than it is to being really good anyway.

The secondary has holes. You can continue to believe they are fine and great and all that, only to be let down by a mediocre pass rush. They need Awuzie to play better and they need someone to play better than Heath did at SS. He's not a starting SS in this league, especially if you are projecting this defense to make the next step and be a truly dominant defense.

And Woods is arguably playing out of position and would be a GREAT strong safety. There are safeties who have had more INTs in a year than our entire defensive unit. They're difference makers. Our 90s super bowls had great safety play.

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

I brought up Chicago because the premise I stated initially was that despite people trying to state that the pass D is good, it is not. It's largely below league average and that's partially due to average to poor safety play. And that if you want to be an ELITE DEFENSE, the pass D has to get much better. Hence the comparison to Chicago - they were the ELITE defense in the NFL last year and their pass D in critical efficiency measures was SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER than ours.

There's the point. Oh and while the Bears were better at rushing the QB, only a fool wouldn't acknowledge they got way better safety play than we did and Eddie Jackson and Amos were better than what we ran out in Dallas.

Yards per game is a horrendous measure of a pass D's efficiency and frankly, 13th is a lot closer to average than it is to being really good anyway.

The secondary has holes. You can continue to believe they are fine and great and all that, only to be let down by a mediocre pass rush. They need Awuzie to play better and they need someone to play better than Heath did at SS. He's not a starting SS in this league, especially if you are projecting this defense to make the next step and be a truly dominant defense.

I don't disagree that the pass D needs improvement. All I said, was its not bottom 3rd, yes certain stats are bottom 3rd. our pass D was average to slightly above IMO. I didn't disagree that safety play wouldn't improve. adding any good player to a team, that would be better than what you have would automatically help you get better. I also don't disagree that to be Elite, defense has to be elite all around.....and looking through their roster of DBs and safteies, none of them want me to go WOW, lets go get him....what they did have was pressure up front and sacks and that made the DBs look really good and bunch of no names into players "you" are coveting....

so getting to be an elite defense starts up front. looking back at all the elite defenses, you see that its common, they get sacks, they get pressure and they have the big names on the DL. even the great Seattle defense had great play up front...once that diminished so did the secondary's play.....

and again, I didn't say they are fine or great....you are trying to spin what I said to that....I said, its not bottom third....13th is about average....that's about what we were.....some stats lower, some stats higher as to be expected for an average pass defense....that was my whole point...

and with that said...I think the whole defense should play better...do I want awuzie to play better..HECK yeah...but what can we do? go get another CB? where? how much? at what cost?

to take the leap, the DL and front 7 have to improve. there is abxolutley no denying our DTs left a lot to be desired.....and it came crashing specially in Rams game, when they gashed us for 275 yards, mostly up the middle.

 

[TwentyOne]

way way too much disdain for the draft and FA on safety as our DB and defense most of the year weren't the issue..Yes we lost the Rams game because we couldn't stop the run, that was coach and team loss BUT...,

I realize our offense changed after the Bye and Cooper and other changes were made but our biggest change needed is to SCORE MORE TDS, period..

our offense was the issue as they finished basically 22nd overall in just about every category other then rushing.. we need more scoring to help when the d falters, to stop playing games where it comes down to the last drive ie win or lose by one score or less..I want to see more aggression and more attempts at deep scoring attempts and that starts with the OC..

It why we changed to Moore, anything has to eb an improvement, let RSmith go and got some new Backs, yes even another Guard early didnt make much sense but if the Fo is looking ahead that once the season gets started maybe the Oline will need tweaking at LG and RT and now we have options.. Can Cobb help, maybe and Witten back at least adds depth with experience and in tight games or keep his legs fresh until the big games come up that cant be bad thing..WE also added speed with some FA College kids and maybe TA stays healthy.. more movable parts and options to have creative offensive packages to help Moore and this offense.

Id say second is non special, special teams, maybe a healthy Tavon , Pollard, weber, cobb, and again more aggression helps shorten the field for the offense..
those are two very glaring issues they are trying to fix while half this forum is complaining about the Safety postion. I see what the FO is trying to do and its the right thing IMO

Problem is the QB, the QB and the QB.

Nothing else.

This was the only reason we didnt win it all last year.

You want a good offense start to invest in the most important position on the team. Dont, and see what happens.