Mike Martz presence in our pass offense?

[NotForLong]

Seems in TC they are taking a lot of shots downfield. I seen more misses than hits, but it is what TC is for. And many of those are attempts to the rookies. And from all the QB's, not just Dak.
Let's see it in some PS games, if Garrett plays Dak and let them go for it.

All the success is coming on 7 on drills

 

[Chocolate Lab]

Alex Smith and Andy Reid disagree with you.

How is that? Looks to me like all Reid changed was his QB. He went from an average, risk-averse bus driver type to a talented gunslinger and suddenly his offense looked completely different.

And BTW, Aikman talked about this very thing on the Ticket last year. He said two different QBs will make completely different reads and throws even in the exact same offense. It's all about the risk mentality of the QB.

 

[TheMarathonContinues]

1st off Andy Reid is an Offensive Genius

Alex Smith's QB Skill set, 2 years ago, is greater then Dak . . . Dak's only advantage is his Strength and Durability. That's the one thing that puts fear into a defense. Dak's only advantage. He'll never be able to read a defense and go through his progressions at an Elite Level . . . problem is this: our Strength, Zeke, is almost neutralized because of Dak's weakness plays into defensive scheame. Defenses scheaming for Dak is actually hampering Zeke all they have to do is Clog the middle and play containment with Dak.

If Zeke played with Alex the last 3 years He would have another 600 yds on his resume

So now Alex Smith is the great qb who can read defenses better than Dak, would’ve had Zeke at over 2k rushing yards in a season and teams scheming against Dak are hurting Zeke.

You have got to be kidding me. I’m shocked Alex Smith doesn’t have a ring as great as you make him out to be and I’m shocked the Cowboys even make the playoffs with as bad as Dak is.

 

[Philmonroe]

I never said Reid won the Super Bowl. See you guys jump into arguments and kind of just dive headfirst without reading all the posts.

And yeah the Chiefs were proactive on replacing Alex Smith who was 30+ and needed a new contract. That still doesn’t mean he had very good years under Reid. My point was Alex Smith was good in Reid’s offense despite him being conservative.

Who said you said Reid won a Super Bowl? Maybe you should learn how to read with understanding and stop going off feelings. I read the post you quoted and your reply and that's what I'm responding to.

Your point doesn't disprove nothing the person you quoted said hence why I said you're killing your own argument. The person you quoted said with Dak they could be ok but not SB good which is basically what you are saying Smith is.

 

[TheMarathonContinues]

How is that? Looks to me like all Reid changed was his QB. He went from an average, risk-averse bus driver type to a talented gunslinger and suddenly his offense looked completely different.

He did but that Chiefs offense was good even when Alex Smith was in there. It got better when they got arguably the best quarterback in the league.

 

[quickccc]

People forget Dallas had an attacking offense for the early Garrett years. This went away to A. Protect the defense and B. Protect Romo. The defense no longer needs protection and the offense should not be trying to win 16 1-possession ballgames as a grand strategy to protect Dak.

I thought Tony had his best seasons, (and smarter games) when we could combine a throughout, very strong run game added to his gunslinger pass attack.
I think that Jedi mentality was more about Romo than Garrett, Tony was a difference kind of QB, a different kind of mind set mentality than Dak.
He was more gungho gunslinger who took chances for better ..or for worse.
The ball swung everywhere and downfield and force defense to defend a wide range but the ball also too often went the other direction in enemy hands and even in some instances being the cause of losing some games too.

I don't think Dak was as dink and dunk his rookie year in 2016, he was very careful, very smart with the ball while he picked his spots for the big play downfield.
and at that time Dez was still making his share of big plays, even Twill had more spots and less disappearances, Butler was supposedly our deep threat. and that allowed spacing
for Beasley to do his wonderful work underneath while Witten still provided security blanket target.

Once teams had more time to figure out what Dak preferred to do best, and made plans to take that away, there wasn't an adjustment - some was on him, a lot had to do with that OC at the time in Linehan, and some of our weapons became more exposed and teams could take them out of the picture (ala Dez, Twill) and we had nothing else as pass weaponry to support Prescott, who has his own issues in his passing skills, and having Linehan still around didn't help matters.

 

[TheMarathonContinues]

Who said you said Reid won a Super Bowl? Maybe you should learn how to read with understanding and stop going off feelings. I read the post you quoted and your reply and that's what I'm responding to.

Your point doesn't disprove nothing the person you quoted said hence why I said you're killing your own argument. The person you quoted said with Dak they could be ok but not SB good which is basically what you are saying Smith is.

I’m saying Smith and Reid together were Super
Bowl contenders and had one of the best offenses in the league. They didn’t win a ring but it wasn’t because Smith was conservative.

 

[ItzKelz]

People forget Dallas had an attacking offense for the early Garrett years. This went away to A. Protect the defense and B. Protect Romo. The defense no longer needs protection and the offense should not be trying to win 16 1-possession ballgames as a grand strategy to protect Dak.

I try to tell Cowboys fans this all the time.

 

[TheMarathonContinues]

People forget Dallas had an attacking offense for the early Garrett years. This went away to A. Protect the defense and B. Protect Romo. The defense no longer needs protection and the offense should not be trying to win 16 1-possession ballgames as a grand strategy to protect Dak.

I agree to an extent. I think smart football is to play how they play. Control the clock and not make mistakes and keep your defense off the field. I think the dumbest thing teams did was try and outduel the Chiefs and Rams. The last team standing is going to be the one who gets the most stops and controls the clock.

 

[Einstein]

Conservative HC... would you say Bill Parcells was conservative? Conservative QB... how about Phil Simms? Well those two won a SB together.

 

[NotForLong]

So now Alex Smith is the great qb who can read defenses better than Dak, would’ve had Zeke at over 2k rushing yards in a season and teams scheming against Dak are hurting Zeke.

You have got to be kidding me. I’m shocked Alex Smith doesn’t have a ring as great as you make him out to be and I’m shocked the Cowboys even make the playoffs with as bad as Dak is.

Slow down.
If you just want to argue that's fine. . . But don't twist my words.

I don't judge Football players by the rings on their fingers. That's nonsense. I judge them by the quality of their play.

Alex has a better Skill set then Dak. As a QB he is Better. And even though Alex was good at running I gave the advantage to Dak. . . Because he'll run you over.

Just because I believe & Understand that the Defenses teams can employ to stop Dak aids in stopping Zeke. Zeke needs to play with a QB that can keep the defense's honest. He'll run through the line only to be met with 2 LBS or a LB and Saftey, because everybodies clogging the middle of the field

Dak needs to play with a RB like Marshal Faulk, Roger Craig or Ricky Waters. Someone who can spread the defenses laterally and can accelerate quickly with Dump off passes.

As it stands Dak & Zeke have the same Skill set big and strong

 

[TheMarathonContinues]

Slow down.
If you just want to argue that's fine. . . But don't twist my words.

I don't judge Football players by the rings on their fingers. That's nonsense. I judge them by the quality of their play.

Alex has a better Skill set then Dak. As a QB he is Better. And even though Alex was good at running I gave the advantage to Dak. . . Because he'll run you over.

Just because I believe & Understand that the Defenses teams can employ to stop Dak aids in stopping Zeke. Zeke needs to play with a QB that can keep the defense's honest. He'll run through the line only to be met with 2 LBS or a LB and Saftey, because everybodies clogging the middle of the field

Dak needs to play with a RB like Marshal Faulk, Roger Craig or Ricky Waters. Someone who can spread the defenses laterally and can accelerate quickly with Dump off passes.

As it stands Dak & Zeke have the same Skill set big and strong

I just don’t know what you seee in Alex Smith to say he’s better than Dak at ANYthing. Not trying to be funny just wondering.

 

[quickccc]

IMO a mindset shift is what Dak needs to go to the next level. He intentionally holds back because he does not want to throw INTs. He needs to find a comfortable between taking risks and knowing when to take the short throw to keep the chains moving.

I would not be surprised if Kitna's talk about being aggressive and pushing the ball down the field is about changing how Dak plays the game.

I agree.
And it think this new form of coaching, new approach is meant to do so to Dak. Once Daks finds more and more rhythm and success in taking the deep middle field, his confidence will grow more into this.
He will still be cautious in not forcing it, but I think he’ll pick his spots in according to design and read/react to the defensive set.

But like you said, there has to be a “middle ground ” between in pushing the ball downfield at times and opting to take it underneath at times.
The one thing I’m hoping for is Moore’s ability as a play designer OC to be able to move defenses around, move safeties around to where they simply cannot afford to sit
and set in the middle and jump the ball.
I’d like to be able to keep them confused, guessing on the move in trying to keep up with both our matchups and the pace of our offense.

That’s also why I think more speed and chunk play guys like Pollard, Austin, Johnson, Davis, Guyton, Jarwin, to go along with the incumbents cooper, gallup, cobb will be so critical
and vastly helpful for this offense.

 

[NotForLong]

I just don’t know what you seee in Alex Smith to say he’s better than Dak at ANYthing. Not trying to be funny just wondering.

I don't know how much more direct I can be. Alex is a better QB because of His QB Skill set which includes Reading the Defense, Anticipation, & touch, and Contrary to popular Belief I don't believe all the blame heaped on Linehan is justified. . . He had to scheme to fit Dak's Skill set . . . If Alex was on the team The playbook would have been wide open.

Can I ask you a Question What makes you think Dak is so talented.

(Please don't quote the Cowboys Record or his calmness in 4th Quarter)

Talk Football and his particular Skill set explain to me what I am Missing

 

[ClintDagger]

Not going to happen no matter what the talk is

Dak is a risk averse QB who has a tough time reading defenses and does not throw until he actually sees the receiver come open and does not use the middle middle at all

He is the limiting factor
He may even ‘want to’ do it but when the chips are down his conservative instincts will take over

Pair a conservative average QB with a conservative average HC on a talented team and you have a team that can make the playoffs but not the SB

I agree. Dak will have to change his stripes to do what Kitna is describing. Maybe he will, but the guy we saw in the first 3 years of his career (for better or worse) is not an aggressive, force it down the field kind of QB. Mentally or physically.

 

[viman96]

I agree.
And it think this new form of coaching, new approach is meant to do so to Dak. Once Daks finds more and more rhythm and success in taking the deep middle field, his confidence will grow more into this.
He will still be cautious in not forcing it, but I think he’ll pick his spots in according to design and read/react to the defensive set.

But like you said, there has to be a “middle ground ” between in pushing the ball downfield at times and opting to take it underneath at times.
The one thing I’m hoping for is Moore’s ability as a play designer OC to be able to move defenses around, move safeties around to where they simply cannot afford to sit
and set in the middle and jump the ball.
I’d like to be able to keep them confused, guessing on the move in trying to keep up with both our matchups and the pace of our offense.

That’s also why I think more speed and chunk play guys like Pollard, Austin, Johnson, Davis, Guyton, Jarwin, to go along with the incumbents cooper, gallup, cobb will be so critical
and vastly helpful for this offense.

Here is an interesting take by Greg Cossell starting around 11:07. He talks about "defining the pass" and breaks down the TD to Jarwin showing how this worked. There was a lot of talk last year that Moore was a big part of developing that game plan so hopefully this is what we will see more of this year.

 

[TheMarathonContinues]

I don't know how much more direct I can be. Alex is a better QB because of His QB Skill set which includes Reading the Defense, Anticipation, & touch, and Contrary to popular Belief I don't believe all the blame heaped on Linehan is justified. . . He had to scheme to fit Dak's Skill set . . . If Alex was on the team The playbook would have been wide open.

Can I ask you a Question What makes you think Dak is so talented.

(Please don't quote the Cowboys Record or his calmness in 4th Quarter)

Talk Football and his particular Skill set explain to me what I am Missing

It’s not that I think Dak is so skilled I just don’t think anything if Alex Smith. Like you bring up all of theee things he does well but it doesn’t show up in games and if it does why is he mediocre for the majority of his career aside from two seasons ago?

 

[quickccc]

Here is an interesting take by Greg Cossell starting around 11:07. He talks about "defining the pass" and breaks down the TD to Jarwin showing how this worked. There was a lot of talk last year that Moore was a big part of developing that game plan so hopefully this is what we will see more of this year.

Yeh, I could believe it could have been Moore's new input and there must have been something very significant going on in coaches-personnel meeting that force that action vs staying with Linehan.

I definitely thought something was happening (good) with Dak... from that Giants last game and on into the playoffs vs Seattle and Rams
- those last 3 games of the year, he suddenly became better, more improved and more effective at quickly getting the ball out of his hand in the pocket,
instead of taking all these hold- the- ball and sacks, or he was quicker to roll out of the pocket and throw on the run or throw ball away.
He was letting it “ rip’ even in the deep middle and pushing ball downfield more (especially with Rams and Giants game)

Where was da hell was that all year ?.. lol

First thing I thought was it seemed like someone else “behind the scenes” got the message to Dak’s head and did what Linehan didn’t seem to be able to do.
and whatever was happening in those last 3 games of the year, .. is exactly what we needed to continue in the same sense into and all of 2019.
and apparently management team thought similarly in making the move to significantly upgraded the pass offense in the offseason.

 

[erod]

i'm hearing QB coach Jon Kitna interview on 105.3 the fan, and how he likes to input an aggressive mindset in this pass offense and letting it rip.

I hear the name of Kitna's past offensive coach Mike Martz coming up a lot and Kitna is made reference to how Martz approach is constantly pushing the ball vertically down the field. Getting the ball to your best offensive players. This won't be greatest show on turf. We are a run-attack team first. But i'd love to push and test defenses deep and get more away from the dink and dunk approach under Dak.

Though I've read articles of how Dak is the one that is liking the push ball down field and taking the deep shots, i'm more for believing Kitna has bought into and the one pushing these QBs to take more shots and getting the ball better into open spots, and how to better attack defenses.

Instead of committing to taking what the defense gives you- You take what you want from a defense.
you dictate and make the defense adjusts to you, rather than you have to alter your game and do what a defense wants you to do.

Even if it's a couple of incomplete overthrows, I really like the idea of taking far more shots over the top of defenses with quick strike TDs or big chunk plays, we don't stretch out the field and gain defenses respect and fear like we should. And it also opens up a lot of spacing upfront to give zeke more room to maneuver.

i'm excited to see what happens with this Moore/Kitna/Husseheimer (sp) Garrett coaching group.
It's sounds like a great plan upfront, worth seeing how it turns out.

Martz was known for getting his quarterbacks maimed, so let's hope not.

He dang near killed Kurt Warner.

 

[Kevinicus]

I never said Reid won the Super Bowl. See you guys jump into arguments and kind of just dive headfirst without reading all the posts.

And yeah the Chiefs were proactive on replacing Alex Smith who was 30+ and needed a new contract. That still doesn’t mean he had very good years under Reid. My point was Alex Smith was good in Reid’s offense despite him being conservative.

And Alex Smith was still a limiting factor on the offense.