The defense is players fault more than coaches

Hennessy_King · Oct 13, 2020

Parcells4Life said:
Griffen and Poe who were supposed to be the answers to the DL problem have been horrible.

Griffen had Engram dead for a 3 yard loss on the reverse and just stands there whole Engram goes around him. At least push him or lunge at him. But standing there was awful.

Poe has gotten no push at the 1T the majority of plays. Yes there have been occasions he’s been ok but I think a big part is he’s playing too many downs.

Worley/Lewis are just terrible NFL CBs. Lewis grabs as soon as he’s beat. Worley gets all turned around.

Has coaching been perfect? Of course not. But when you call a play that gets players in position to make the tackle on reverses and they go for TDs 2 weeks in a row, that’s on players for not diagnosing the angles properly. Last week Aldon watched Beckham coming right for him. This week Griffen did the same thing on Engram. NFL players need to at least slow the guys up and not be flat footed.

The turnovers on offense are all player induced with the exception of the pump fake screen last week. That is all coaching when Steele is going up against Garrett 1 on 1. Dak has Zeke open on a 5 yard dump off and it sails and gets picked. The fumbles Zekes had. Biadasz and Dalton not working on center exchange on sidelines while Giants had the ball.

Everyone is so quick to think the perfect play call fixes these issues Like this is Madden. But the plays are there to be made with what’s being called. The players just aren’t finishing plays.

How hard is it for punt return unit to know who’s supposed to be on the field? There’s 3 more points the Giants were given. NFL players making this much need to be able to execute basic things like tackling 1 on 1 and lining up

Great post. The players are just awful. They are constantly in position to make plays but just totally whiff

Hennessy_King · Oct 13, 2020

CorpusChristiCowboy said:
Tom Brady is turning the losingest organization in NA sports into a respectable team. He changes a lot.
Them cheating helps too.

And OP, I think the coaching has been fine. Except on special teams, except for that play.
Aside from trying to feed Zeke too much, the O has been great. We will see how much of that was Dak from now on.
The D is so injured that it's like an XFL defense, I'm curious what they will be like at full strength. I'm also curious if anything will be done at the trade deadline, Lawrence has been almost invisible so I'm curious if they'll shop him around.

The bucs built a very good defense. They were good last year on defense and struggled on offense. So yes brady would turn the team around when the qb play was trash. Everyone has injuries i dont want to hear excuses

Sydla · Oct 13, 2020

Nolan is a problem. We are going to learn a painful lesson there. That's not to say the players are good but I think you are going to learn that as we churn players, the results aren't going to get great. Plus it will be Nolan who will be having input in what players they churn on the defensive roster.

There is zero doubt in my mind, 2 seasons from now we are going to be looking back and saying to ourselves, we should have taken Nolan out in 2020 after his defenses got scorched at a record pace early in the season.

Bowdown27 · Oct 13, 2020

ClappingCarrot said:
Best post I've seen in 24 hours.

This echoed almost all of my angst with this team.

100% correct. The only blessing to look forward to is Gregory and lve coming back. Griffen and rest of the jags we signed haven’t worked out

Parcells4Life · Oct 13, 2020

superonyx said:
Not even close to true.

So you are telling me the Patriots have been the best team in the NFL for the last 15 years because they have the best players?
I doubt it.
If you want to use a 90% theory you would be better served saying its 90% on the coaches. The coaches need to recognize what the players do well and what they do poorly, both physically and mentally. Its the job of the coaches to put the players in the best positions to succeed on every play. To create mismatches to take advantage of not only your strengths but your opponents weakness.

If you actually think its the players then you are seriously missing how this all really works.

So the 49ers got truck rolled by the Dolphins because Shanahan got stupid or is it because they lost Bosa, Thomas, Sherman and others?

The Cowboys went 5-11 3 straight years because Aikman/Irvin retired or because Campo who kept the same defensive system in place was the worst coach in the history of football?

Coaches put players in position to make plays. If a coach puts Jaylon on Tyreek Hill then yes that’s on the coach for having unreal expectations. But when the coach puts the players in position to make the plays it’s on the players to execute which isn’t happening on defense. Worley is 1 on 1 at the goal line. He didn’t even move as Beckham released inside. No coaching adjustment is going to fix a player who won’t move his feet and that’s not something they’re being coached to do.

superonyx · Oct 13, 2020

Parcells4Life said:
So the 49ers got truck rolled by the Dolphins because Shanahan got stupid or is it because they lost Bosa, Thomas, Sherman and others?

The Cowboys went 5-11 3 straight years because Aikman/Irvin retired or because Campo who kept the same defensive system in place was the worst coach in the history of football?

Coaches put players in position to make plays. If a coach puts Jaylon on Tyreek Hill then yes that’s on the coach for having unreal expectations. But when the coach puts the players in position to make the plays it’s on the players to execute which isn’t happening on defense. Worley is 1 on 1 at the goal line. He didn’t even move as Beckham released inside. No coaching adjustment is going to fix a player who won’t move his feet and that’s not something they’re being coached to do.

It seems weird arguing about the value of a coach with someone who has Bill Parcels as his sig pic...

I guess we should have never fired Campo since its really about the players not the coaches. Hey maybe you can coach the Cowboys?

When you pretend the other persons position is to the extremes to try to position your argument then you already lost. As I just showed you with the Campo comment. Its goofy. As is your position that its all about the players when in fact its much more about the coaches motivating, teaching, and helping the players succeed.

IceStar-D7 · Oct 13, 2020

I feel about our defense about the way I felt about Danny Green in the bubble. SUCK...SUCK...SUCK! And usually I'm on the defense side. I had a choice in anything in sports it's defense. This defense is so bad it's laughable. I have nightmares on what Murray may do to this defense come Monday night.

coult44 · Oct 13, 2020

superonyx said:
These threads are funny.
So for a few weeks the fanbase pointed the finger and their venom towards the coaching staff..
That didn't change anything so now this fanbase will need to find the next group to spit their venom towards. Naturally its not the players.

Here is the truth you don't want to admit....

You don't have a damn clue who's fault it is. You are not qualified to make a determination. Even if you were you would need to be in the building to really have the insight to diagnose the problem.

You are just an angry fan who is spitting him venom in as many directions as possible because what else are you going to do about something you don't really know and have any control over.

Guess what Mr. Genius, you don’t have to be even a little good at knowing about football to see how bad he is. A damn kid could look at this fat waste of a DL, and know how horrible he and how little he cares and tries. He’s collecting a check and will only be here a few more months. How’s an Angry dude gonna call out other people for being angry? That’s funny

nightrain · Oct 13, 2020

Parcells4Life said:
Griffen and Poe who were supposed to be the answers to the DL problem have been horrible.

Griffen had Engram dead for a 3 yard loss on the reverse and just stands there whole Engram goes around him. At least push him or lunge at him. But standing there was awful.

Poe has gotten no push at the 1T the majority of plays. Yes there have been occasions he’s been ok but I think a big part is he’s playing too many downs.

Worley/Lewis are just terrible NFL CBs. Lewis grabs as soon as he’s beat. Worley gets all turned around.

Has coaching been perfect? Of course not. But when you call a play that gets players in position to make the tackle on reverses and they go for TDs 2 weeks in a row, that’s on players for not diagnosing the angles properly. Last week Aldon watched Beckham coming right for him. This week Griffen did the same thing on Engram. NFL players need to at least slow the guys up and not be flat footed.

The turnovers on offense are all player induced with the exception of the pump fake screen last week. That is all coaching when Steele is going up against Garrett 1 on 1. Dak has Zeke open on a 5 yard dump off and it sails and gets picked. The fumbles Zekes had. Biadasz and Dalton not working on center exchange on sidelines while Giants had the ball.

Everyone is so quick to think the perfect play call fixes these issues Like this is Madden. But the plays are there to be made with what’s being called. The players just aren’t finishing plays.

How hard is it for punt return unit to know who’s supposed to be on the field? There’s 3 more points the Giants were given. NFL players making this much need to be able to execute basic things like tackling 1 on 1 and lining up

Who brought those Joes in?

Parcells4Life · Oct 13, 2020

superonyx said:
It seems weird arguing about the value of a coach with someone who has Bill Parcels as his sig pic...

I guess we should have never fired Campo since its really about the players not the coaches. Hey maybe you can coach the Cowboys?

When you pretend the other persons position is to the extremes to try to position your argument then you already lost. As I just showed you with the Campo comment. Its goofy. As is your position that its all about the players when in fact its much more about the coaches motivating, teaching, and helping the players succeed.

You are much more likely to see a bad coach succeed with good players than a good coach succeed with bad ones. Wade Phillips went 13-3. Would have made an NFC Championship if Crayton doesn’t drop a pass.

Garrett makes an NFC title game if Murray doesn’t fumble or Dez gets a good ruling.

It’s much harder for Belichek to win a Super Bowl with Brian Hoyer than it is for Patrick Mahomes to win a Super Bowl even if Dave Campo was his coach.

The difference in the great and bad coaches in nowhere the margin of difference between great and bad players. Every HC has once been at least a top OC/DC/ST coordinator. Not every starter has been a pro bowler. Comparing Belichek and Campo is much smaller than comparing Worley to Deion

Parcells4Life · Oct 13, 2020

nightrain said:
Who brought those Joes in?

Will McClay. If you want to blame him for an evaluation problem I won’t argue with you there.

Haimerej · Oct 13, 2020

superonyx said:
It seems weird arguing about the value of a coach with someone who has Bill Parcels as his sig pic...

This made me laugh.

As regards the OP, it's a combination. Teams that suck have players who suck. Coaches can only mitigate the suck. So far, all the talk about players over scheme in the offseason can be written off as nonsense. They're wedded to their scheme despite not having the players for it in the front 7.

I'm starting to think this season is a tryout for next year. The coaches are seeing who fits what they want to do. McCarthy talked in the offseason about wanting to find pass rushers because, "they're going to score a lot of points," being, "in those type of games." It's like he knew the defense was going to be bad.

For all the focus on the secondary (which sucks), I think the majority of the confusion we're seeing is in the front 7. The two gappers are catching their blocks instead of attacking and controlling the LoS. The OLBs are losing contain. The ILBs are rarely in a position to get downhill, making tackles 4-5 yards back if not further. That's just the running game.

I guess I'd argue the coaches rolling with the new scheme and not reverting to something the players can do better is on them. But that's part of their plan. This can be expected when schemes are overhauled and players who were just ok in an easier scheme are stuck with even more responsibility in the new one.

ConstantReboot · Oct 13, 2020

Parcells4Life said:
Griffen and Poe who were supposed to be the answers to the DL problem have been horrible.

Griffen had Engram dead for a 3 yard loss on the reverse and just stands there whole Engram goes around him. At least push him or lunge at him. But standing there was awful.

Poe has gotten no push at the 1T the majority of plays. Yes there have been occasions he’s been ok but I think a big part is he’s playing too many downs.

Worley/Lewis are just terrible NFL CBs. Lewis grabs as soon as he’s beat. Worley gets all turned around.

Has coaching been perfect? Of course not. But when you call a play that gets players in position to make the tackle on reverses and they go for TDs 2 weeks in a row, that’s on players for not diagnosing the angles properly. Last week Aldon watched Beckham coming right for him. This week Griffen did the same thing on Engram. NFL players need to at least slow the guys up and not be flat footed.

The turnovers on offense are all player induced with the exception of the pump fake screen last week. That is all coaching when Steele is going up against Garrett 1 on 1. Dak has Zeke open on a 5 yard dump off and it sails and gets picked. The fumbles Zekes had. Biadasz and Dalton not working on center exchange on sidelines while Giants had the ball.

Everyone is so quick to think the perfect play call fixes these issues Like this is Madden. But the plays are there to be made with what’s being called. The players just aren’t finishing plays.

How hard is it for punt return unit to know who’s supposed to be on the field? There’s 3 more points the Giants were given. NFL players making this much need to be able to execute basic things like tackling 1 on 1 and lining up

In defense of Aldon and Griffen, those are 4.3 or 4.4 guys. They are made to get upfield in a short amount of time. Both Ingram and Beckham run a 4.3.

conner01 · Oct 13, 2020

Parcells4Life said:
Griffen and Poe who were supposed to be the answers to the DL problem have been horrible.

Griffen had Engram dead for a 3 yard loss on the reverse and just stands there whole Engram goes around him. At least push him or lunge at him. But standing there was awful.

Poe has gotten no push at the 1T the majority of plays. Yes there have been occasions he’s been ok but I think a big part is he’s playing too many downs.

Worley/Lewis are just terrible NFL CBs. Lewis grabs as soon as he’s beat. Worley gets all turned around.

Has coaching been perfect? Of course not. But when you call a play that gets players in position to make the tackle on reverses and they go for TDs 2 weeks in a row, that’s on players for not diagnosing the angles properly. Last week Aldon watched Beckham coming right for him. This week Griffen did the same thing on Engram. NFL players need to at least slow the guys up and not be flat footed.

The turnovers on offense are all player induced with the exception of the pump fake screen last week. That is all coaching when Steele is going up against Garrett 1 on 1. Dak has Zeke open on a 5 yard dump off and it sails and gets picked. The fumbles Zekes had. Biadasz and Dalton not working on center exchange on sidelines while Giants had the ball.

Everyone is so quick to think the perfect play call fixes these issues Like this is Madden. But the plays are there to be made with what’s being called. The players just aren’t finishing plays.

How hard is it for punt return unit to know who’s supposed to be on the field? There’s 3 more points the Giants were given. NFL players making this much need to be able to execute basic things like tackling 1 on 1 and lining up

It’s almost always the players fault
They are the ones playing the game
But the staff bears responsibility in teach, coach and motivating them to be the best they can be

stilltheguru · Oct 13, 2020

Griffen mustve lost contact with his ped connect because he looks trash

conner01 · Oct 13, 2020

Haimerej said:
This made me laugh.

As regards the OP, it's a combination. Teams that suck have players who suck. Coaches can only mitigate the suck. So far, all the talk about players over scheme in the offseason can be written off as nonsense. They're wedded to their scheme despite not having the players for it in the front 7.

I'm starting to think this season is a tryout for next year. The coaches are seeing who fits what they want to do. McCarthy talked in the offseason about wanting to find pass rushers because, "they're going to score a lot of points," being, "in those type of games." It's like he knew the defense was going to be bad.

For all the focus on the secondary (which sucks), I think the majority of the confusion we're seeing is in the front 7. The two gappers are catching their blocks instead of attacking and controlling the LoS. The OLBs are losing contain. The ILBs are rarely in a position to get downhill, making tackles 4-5 yards back if not further. That's just the running game.

I guess I'd argue the coaches rolling with the new scheme and not reverting to something the players can do better is on them. But that's part of their plan. This can be expected when schemes are overhauled and players who were just ok in an easier scheme are stuck with even more responsibility in the new one.

Teams that sux have players that sux
That’s very true in general
But great coaches use players in a way to hide their weaknesses. They motivate or intimidate them into playing hard and aggressive
They teach them to get the most out of them
A coach can’t win a super bowl with bums
But good players play better for good coaches

stilltheguru · Oct 13, 2020

superonyx said:
Oh it must have been Tom Brady that held the Rams high powered offense to 3 points in the superbowl.

I guess Nolan having the worst defense in the league and the last defense he coached was also the worst in the league must be because he didn't have a Tom Brady level Qb. Interesting.
I must say, I've never thought of it that way......

Tampa bay has a good DC too

calicowboy54 · Oct 13, 2020

Parcells4Life said:
Griffen and Poe who were supposed to be the answers to the DL problem have been horrible.

Griffen had Engram dead for a 3 yard loss on the reverse and just stands there whole Engram goes around him. At least push him or lunge at him. But standing there was awful.

Poe has gotten no push at the 1T the majority of plays. Yes there have been occasions he’s been ok but I think a big part is he’s playing too many downs.

Worley/Lewis are just terrible NFL CBs. Lewis grabs as soon as he’s beat. Worley gets all turned around.

Has coaching been perfect? Of course not. But when you call a play that gets players in position to make the tackle on reverses and they go for TDs 2 weeks in a row, that’s on players for not diagnosing the angles properly. Last week Aldon watched Beckham coming right for him. This week Griffen did the same thing on Engram. NFL players need to at least slow the guys up and not be flat footed.

The turnovers on offense are all player induced with the exception of the pump fake screen last week. That is all coaching when Steele is going up against Garrett 1 on 1. Dak has Zeke open on a 5 yard dump off and it sails and gets picked. The fumbles Zekes had. Biadasz and Dalton not working on center exchange on sidelines while Giants had the ball.

Everyone is so quick to think the perfect play call fixes these issues Like this is Madden. But the plays are there to be made with what’s being called. The players just aren’t finishing plays.

How hard is it for punt return unit to know who’s supposed to be on the field? There’s 3 more points the Giants were given. NFL players making this much need to be able to execute basic things like tackling 1 on 1 and lining up

who ever our pro scout director is needs to go. mcclay does a good job in draft. but the info he’s getting on the pro FA is hot garbage. thus we are hot garbage

Sheepherder · Oct 13, 2020

CorpusChristiCowboy said:
Tom Brady is turning the losingest organization in NA sports into a respectable team. He changes a lot.
Them cheating helps too.

And OP, I think the coaching has been fine. Except on special teams, except for that play.
Aside from trying to feed Zeke too much, the O has been great. We will see how much of that was Dak from now on.
The D is so injured that it's like an XFL defense, I'm curious what they will be like at full strength. I'm also curious if anything will be done at the trade deadline, Lawrence has been almost invisible so I'm curious if they'll shop him around.

I’d be shocked if that happened. Stephen says they like their roster.

Playmaker3128 · Oct 13, 2020

Is it still possible not having training camp really hurt this d more than we thought? From a players and also learning a new system standpoint. I think we still have talent in the front 7 if we can get LVE back healthy as well thats a plus.

The secondary we know is young, i'm just surprised the front 7 playing so poorly. They were supposed to get pressure, maybe enable the secondary to cause some turnovers while giving up big plays.

The defense is players fault more than coaches

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Since 1971

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member