08 draft schedule question...
- Thread starter xpistofer
- Start date
CF74
Vet Min Plus
- Messages
- 26,167
- Reaction score
- 14,623
gollum
Member
- Messages
- 747
- Reaction score
- 0
I think the information in the link above posted by ElDudearino(even though it is from nfl.com) is wrong, which is a shame since it is a league source.
They are wrong with Dallas' pick from Cleveland since the Browns didn't make the playoffs. Seattle should select before both Pittsburgh and Tennessee even though they lasted in the playoffs an extra round due to strength of schedule being the first tie-breaker. They have Jacksonville's record at 10-6 instead of 11-5 which causes them and San Diego to flip spots due to strength of schedule. Also, Green Bay picks before both Dallas and SF(from Indy) for the same reason(SOS). There is a misconception, unless the rule changed this year, that teams that go further in the playoffs pick later. That is not true unless they make it all the way to the Super Bowl.
Here is the draft order assuming the Pats win the Super Bowl...
Pick# Team Record Strength of Schedule
1 Miami (1-15) SOS = 0.539
2 St. Louis (3-13) SOS = 0.512
3 Atlanta (4-12) SOS = 0.516 (assumes they lose flip to Raiders; if they win, they flip with KC)
4 Oakland (4-12) SOS = 0.516
5 Kansas City (4-12) SOS = 0.516
6 NY Jets (4-12) SOS = 0.523
7 New England(from SF) (5-11) SOS = 0.465
8 Baltimore (5-11) SOS = 0.516
9 Cincinnati (7-9) SOS = 0.461
10 New Orleans (7-9) SOS = 0.480
11 Buffalo(lost to Den) (7-9) SOS = 0.516
12 Denver(beat Buf) (7-9) SOS = 0.516
13 Carolina (7-9) SOS = 0.523
14 Chicago(Det swept Chi) (7-9) SOS = 0.543
15 Detroit(Det swept Chi) (7-9) SOS = 0.543
16 Arizona (8-8) SOS = 0.434
17 Minnesota (8-8) SOS = 0.504
18 Houston (8-8) SOS = 0.516
19 Philadelphia (8-8) SOS = 0.563
20 Dallas(from Cleveland) (10-6) SOS = 0.457
21 Tampa Bay (9-7) SOS = 0.469
22 Washington (9-7) SOS = 0.555
23 Seattle (10-6) SOS = 0.414
24 Pittsburgh (10-6) SOS = 0.463
25 Tennessee (10-6) SOS = 0.500
26 San Diego (11-5) SOS = 0.500
27 Jacksonville (11-5) SOS = 0.516
28 Green Bay (13-3) SOS = 0.492
29 Dallas (13-3) SOS = 0.496
30 San Francisco(from Ind) (13-3) SOS = 0.516
31 NY Giants (10-6) SOS = 0.516
32 Forfeited by NE for cheating (16-0) SOS = 0.469
I found this article below...Interesting read (moderate length):
Source: http://www.solecismic.com/frontierblog/?p=193
December 31, 2007
2008 NFL Draft Order Controversy in Kansas City and Denver
Posted by: Jim Gindin in: Commentary
This afternoon, the NFL clarified the 2008 amateur draft order tiebreakers involving Kansas City, Atlanta and Oakland for the third pick in the first round and between Buffalo and Denver for the 11th pick.
Here is the relevant clause from the NFL rule set:
“If any ties cannot be broken by strength of schedule, the divisional or conference tie breakers, whichever are applicable, are applied. Any ties that still exist are broken by a coin flip. ”
The NFL used the most literal interpretation of these rules. For Buffalo and Denver, since they played in week 1 and Denver won, Buffalo received the 11th pick. For Kansas City and Oakland, the tie was broken based on common games played, where Oakland was given the advantage based on a 1-11 record in those games while the Chiefs were 2-10.
Oakland will then flip a coin with Atlanta to determine the 3rd pick, and if Atlanta loses that flip, it will then flip a second coin with Kansas City to determine the 4th pick.
Most interpretations I’ve seen of the rules indicated a different result to these tiebreakers. The rules refer specifically to division and conference tiebreakers. The divisional tiebreaker could be division record, or it could be the whole divisional tiebreaker process. That much is unclear.
But the conference tiebreaker seems to refer specifically to conference record. Nowhere in the rules is the wild-card tiebreaker process referred to as a conference tiebreaker.
NFL Tiebreaking Procedures
It’s always called the wild-card tiebreaker. So, the assumption was that the draft order was determined by a separate and very different procedure - record, strength of schedule, divisional record where applicable, conference record where applicable, then coin flip.
If not, then why not mention specifically that ties between teams in different conferences would be broken by a coin flip, as the divisional and conference tiebreaker processes already employ one?
By this logic, Buffalo and Denver, both with 6-6 conference records, would flip a coin for the 11th spot. And Kansas City would win the right to flip with Atlanta for the 3rd pick, because the Chiefs have a 3-9 conference record to Oakland’s 4-8 (they have the same divisional record).
Both cases are unique in the NFL’s brief history since realigning. There have been ties in strength of schedule, but they have always resolved using the same rule set.
2003 NFL draft order ties:
Dallas and Arizona tied for the 5th draft spot. Arizona had a better conference record and had beaten Dallas head-to-head. Dallas picked 5th.
Seattle and Baltimore tied for the 10th draft spot and Baltimore won the coin toss.
2004 NFL draft order ties:
Cleveland and Atlanta tied for the 7th draft spot and Cleveland won the coin toss.
2005 NFL draft order ties:
Dallas and the New York Giants tied for the 11th draft spot. The Giants swept Dallas head-to-head and had a better divisional record. Dallas picked 11th.
2006 NFL draft order ties:
San Francisco and Oakland tied for the 6th draft spot and San Francisco won the coin toss.
2007 NFL draft order ties:
Cleveland and Tampa Bay tied for the 3rd draft spot. Tampa Bay had beaten Cleveland head-to-head during the season, but they flipped a coin instead. Cleveland won the coin toss.
Now there’s no situation in the playoff tiebreaking rules where teams from different conferences are ever compared, but the fact that the head-to-head result between these teams was not used to break the tie last year is inconsistent with today’s ruling.
Why? Because some of the tiebreakers are relevant. Head-to-head games and common games and strength of victory are all tiebreakers that could be used to break ties between teams in different conferences. Yet the NFL has been content to use coin flips instead.
So there’s a fundamental inconsistency in the fact that the Buffalo/Denver result from week 1 this year is relevant, while the Cleveland/Tampa Bay result from week 16 of last year was not relevant last year.
The NFL goes to enormous trouble to ensure no team from the same conference could ever need to flip a coin for a playoff spot. The list of tiebreakers is 11-deep, using points scored and points against ranking and even net touchdowns scored. You’re more likely to see a meteorite land at the 20-yard line during the Super Bowl than you are to see a playoff spot determined by a coin flip.
So, why use the extensive playoff tiebreakers in the same process as one in which coin flips are necessary almost every year? That, too, is inconsistent.
Every tiebreaker up until this year led to the conclusion that the draft tiebreaking process was completely separate from the playoff tiebreaking process. There’s no reason that, for consistency, the NFL couldn’t have extended the playoff tiebreaking system to break ties for the draft or even adopt relevant individual procedures. Instead, they chose to use strength of schedule.
I don’t think any huge injustice has been done. An interpretation was made, and it’s as valid as any other interpretation. The rules, however, were unclear and not as consistent as they should be. The NFL needs to rewrite the tiebreaking procedure rules to better reflect how it determines an order that may mean millions of dollars to individual teams.
They are wrong with Dallas' pick from Cleveland since the Browns didn't make the playoffs. Seattle should select before both Pittsburgh and Tennessee even though they lasted in the playoffs an extra round due to strength of schedule being the first tie-breaker. They have Jacksonville's record at 10-6 instead of 11-5 which causes them and San Diego to flip spots due to strength of schedule. Also, Green Bay picks before both Dallas and SF(from Indy) for the same reason(SOS). There is a misconception, unless the rule changed this year, that teams that go further in the playoffs pick later. That is not true unless they make it all the way to the Super Bowl.
Here is the draft order assuming the Pats win the Super Bowl...
Pick# Team Record Strength of Schedule
1 Miami (1-15) SOS = 0.539
2 St. Louis (3-13) SOS = 0.512
3 Atlanta (4-12) SOS = 0.516 (assumes they lose flip to Raiders; if they win, they flip with KC)
4 Oakland (4-12) SOS = 0.516
5 Kansas City (4-12) SOS = 0.516
6 NY Jets (4-12) SOS = 0.523
7 New England(from SF) (5-11) SOS = 0.465
8 Baltimore (5-11) SOS = 0.516
9 Cincinnati (7-9) SOS = 0.461
10 New Orleans (7-9) SOS = 0.480
11 Buffalo(lost to Den) (7-9) SOS = 0.516
12 Denver(beat Buf) (7-9) SOS = 0.516
13 Carolina (7-9) SOS = 0.523
14 Chicago(Det swept Chi) (7-9) SOS = 0.543
15 Detroit(Det swept Chi) (7-9) SOS = 0.543
16 Arizona (8-8) SOS = 0.434
17 Minnesota (8-8) SOS = 0.504
18 Houston (8-8) SOS = 0.516
19 Philadelphia (8-8) SOS = 0.563
20 Dallas(from Cleveland) (10-6) SOS = 0.457
21 Tampa Bay (9-7) SOS = 0.469
22 Washington (9-7) SOS = 0.555
23 Seattle (10-6) SOS = 0.414
24 Pittsburgh (10-6) SOS = 0.463
25 Tennessee (10-6) SOS = 0.500
26 San Diego (11-5) SOS = 0.500
27 Jacksonville (11-5) SOS = 0.516
28 Green Bay (13-3) SOS = 0.492
29 Dallas (13-3) SOS = 0.496
30 San Francisco(from Ind) (13-3) SOS = 0.516
31 NY Giants (10-6) SOS = 0.516
32 Forfeited by NE for cheating (16-0) SOS = 0.469
I found this article below...Interesting read (moderate length):
Source: http://www.solecismic.com/frontierblog/?p=193
December 31, 2007
2008 NFL Draft Order Controversy in Kansas City and Denver
Posted by: Jim Gindin in: Commentary
This afternoon, the NFL clarified the 2008 amateur draft order tiebreakers involving Kansas City, Atlanta and Oakland for the third pick in the first round and between Buffalo and Denver for the 11th pick.
Here is the relevant clause from the NFL rule set:
“If any ties cannot be broken by strength of schedule, the divisional or conference tie breakers, whichever are applicable, are applied. Any ties that still exist are broken by a coin flip. ”
The NFL used the most literal interpretation of these rules. For Buffalo and Denver, since they played in week 1 and Denver won, Buffalo received the 11th pick. For Kansas City and Oakland, the tie was broken based on common games played, where Oakland was given the advantage based on a 1-11 record in those games while the Chiefs were 2-10.
Oakland will then flip a coin with Atlanta to determine the 3rd pick, and if Atlanta loses that flip, it will then flip a second coin with Kansas City to determine the 4th pick.
Most interpretations I’ve seen of the rules indicated a different result to these tiebreakers. The rules refer specifically to division and conference tiebreakers. The divisional tiebreaker could be division record, or it could be the whole divisional tiebreaker process. That much is unclear.
But the conference tiebreaker seems to refer specifically to conference record. Nowhere in the rules is the wild-card tiebreaker process referred to as a conference tiebreaker.
NFL Tiebreaking Procedures
It’s always called the wild-card tiebreaker. So, the assumption was that the draft order was determined by a separate and very different procedure - record, strength of schedule, divisional record where applicable, conference record where applicable, then coin flip.
If not, then why not mention specifically that ties between teams in different conferences would be broken by a coin flip, as the divisional and conference tiebreaker processes already employ one?
By this logic, Buffalo and Denver, both with 6-6 conference records, would flip a coin for the 11th spot. And Kansas City would win the right to flip with Atlanta for the 3rd pick, because the Chiefs have a 3-9 conference record to Oakland’s 4-8 (they have the same divisional record).
Both cases are unique in the NFL’s brief history since realigning. There have been ties in strength of schedule, but they have always resolved using the same rule set.
2003 NFL draft order ties:
Dallas and Arizona tied for the 5th draft spot. Arizona had a better conference record and had beaten Dallas head-to-head. Dallas picked 5th.
Seattle and Baltimore tied for the 10th draft spot and Baltimore won the coin toss.
2004 NFL draft order ties:
Cleveland and Atlanta tied for the 7th draft spot and Cleveland won the coin toss.
2005 NFL draft order ties:
Dallas and the New York Giants tied for the 11th draft spot. The Giants swept Dallas head-to-head and had a better divisional record. Dallas picked 11th.
2006 NFL draft order ties:
San Francisco and Oakland tied for the 6th draft spot and San Francisco won the coin toss.
2007 NFL draft order ties:
Cleveland and Tampa Bay tied for the 3rd draft spot. Tampa Bay had beaten Cleveland head-to-head during the season, but they flipped a coin instead. Cleveland won the coin toss.
Now there’s no situation in the playoff tiebreaking rules where teams from different conferences are ever compared, but the fact that the head-to-head result between these teams was not used to break the tie last year is inconsistent with today’s ruling.
Why? Because some of the tiebreakers are relevant. Head-to-head games and common games and strength of victory are all tiebreakers that could be used to break ties between teams in different conferences. Yet the NFL has been content to use coin flips instead.
So there’s a fundamental inconsistency in the fact that the Buffalo/Denver result from week 1 this year is relevant, while the Cleveland/Tampa Bay result from week 16 of last year was not relevant last year.
The NFL goes to enormous trouble to ensure no team from the same conference could ever need to flip a coin for a playoff spot. The list of tiebreakers is 11-deep, using points scored and points against ranking and even net touchdowns scored. You’re more likely to see a meteorite land at the 20-yard line during the Super Bowl than you are to see a playoff spot determined by a coin flip.
So, why use the extensive playoff tiebreakers in the same process as one in which coin flips are necessary almost every year? That, too, is inconsistent.
Every tiebreaker up until this year led to the conclusion that the draft tiebreaking process was completely separate from the playoff tiebreaking process. There’s no reason that, for consistency, the NFL couldn’t have extended the playoff tiebreaking system to break ties for the draft or even adopt relevant individual procedures. Instead, they chose to use strength of schedule.
I don’t think any huge injustice has been done. An interpretation was made, and it’s as valid as any other interpretation. The rules, however, were unclear and not as consistent as they should be. The NFL needs to rewrite the tiebreaking procedure rules to better reflect how it determines an order that may mean millions of dollars to individual teams.
TellerMorrow34
BraveHeartFan
- Messages
- 28,358
- Reaction score
- 5,076
I don't know where you got that draft order...but it's already been confirmed that Dallas is picking at 22 and 28. That's already set.
gollum
Member
- Messages
- 747
- Reaction score
- 0
BraveHeartFan;1928007 said:
Perhaps they've changed the selection rules...I have seen in several places that we are #22 as opposed to #20. They used to have all non-playoff teams select before any playoff team, even if the playoff team had a worse record. But I reserve the right to be wrong on that
Yeagermeister
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 47,629
- Reaction score
- 117
Dang Gollum that Silver Bear like