3 QB Categories

[Denim Chicken]

Rodgers, Brady, Allen, Mahomes, Wilson, Watson (when he returns).

Brady is absolutely an elite QB. If you are saying that he played at elite level this year, I think there is an argument for Dak.

I would argue Watson, Wilson in that category.

 

[Flamma]

his was not a great defense and this year will show you that

we’re an average defense

I just don’t want posts in mid season “surprised “ at how our defense is not playing lights out because it won’t

Good defense, not great. It is the reason for our records over the last 3 years. Because our offense was the same.

 

[817Gill]

I agree with you but the first part of Building a team with a tier 2 QB is that you don't pay him tier 1 money

Not in this salary cap Era.

The tier 2 QBs that won anything were practicaly playing for peanuts..

Sure, there may be outliers but they are just that.. Outliers.

Whats killing us is we
Are paying a tier 2 guy teir 1 money.
Hard to surround him with enough talent
When he taking up so much cap

In principle I agree, but in reality there are two things that prevent teams from not paying these guys.

1) There just aren’t enough qualified human beings to be NFL QB’s. You can’t keep flipping QB’s every 4 years until you find an elite guy because of pure lack of available people. If you think a franchise is gonna keep swinging every 4 years at a QB in hopes he’s elite then you’re not being realistic. Because of this, until owners create a salary range for 2nd tier QB’s, they will get paid top dollar when their time is due. Just a matter of scarcity.

2) You can win with a tier 2 guy getting paid big, but you must do some non-QB things at a high level. Drafting well and coaching at a high level allow you to circumvent the issues caused by a high priced QB. People forget Garappolo was given one of the highest QB contracts at the time and they still made the SB and are now a game away again. Why? They draft very well and coach at a high level. We already draft well and have high level coaching on D, we just need the offensive coaching to get with the program and be run-first. We aren’t that far away if we play to what our identity should be.

Also, after 2-3 years of the contract other QB’s pass up the highest paid list. A guy like Dak who’s 8-10 range but gets 3-4 range money will soon be passed up to the point where he’s getting 8-10 range money which is more commensurate with his ranking.

I wish there was a middle tier contract but there’s not. So the best way to win is to build a team true to your skill set. Follow the niners blue print and we’re fine.

 

[Aerolithe_Lion]

Elite talents. How much you’ve won and your playoff success is dependent on your team. Rodgers hasn’t won longer than Wilson, this isn’t only about wins.

Point of the tiering system is to prove a point about team building and schematics. Guys in tier 1 might not all have the same resume, but they have the talent to be the engine of an offense.

Tier 2 guys can do it for stretches at a time, but the lack of high end talent precludes them from playing at that level consistently. So with these types, they need to lean on a running game, defense, and coaching to make deep playoff runs.

With all those guys I mentioned, you can see the elite physical traits. From arm talent to athletic ability, these guys have some combination of elite physical ability. Guys in tier 2 may have a trait, but for the most part are physically limited in comparison to those tier 1 guys.

I guess you can make a super elite categorization if you’d like for those with elite traits and robust resumes, but doesn’t change the way a team is built for those with elite skills but not as big of a resume.

The one tweener is Matt Stafford. He has elite arm talent and can process the game well, but has had little regular season success let alone post season. He’s an interesting case study in the debate of physical talent versus accomplishments. Nevertheless, the discernment is “can this guy be the engine of the offense or does he need a strong running game and coaching/defense to be effective consistently?”, not “who’s resume makes them elite”.

IMO talent is a bad word to use for how good a player is. You know who’s one of the least talented QBs in the NFL? Tom Brady. Doesn’t have a great arm, one of the slowest QBs in NFL history, slight frame, not particularly tall. You know who are some of the most talented QBs ever? Jamarcus Russell. Michael Vick. It’s the reason many wanted Ryan Leaf over Peyton Manning. Peyton had better composure, head in the right place, but it was argued that Leaf was more talented. It’s pointless word. In the NFL it’s not what your potential is, but what you do that defines you.

You bring up Aaron Rodgers on Russell Wilson. Why is Russell Wilson not called a choker? Because he’s not a perennial MVP candidate. If you make 5 NFCCGs in your career, and people expect more of you, that means you’re held on an incredible pedestal. None of those other QBs are held in that regard because they don’t yet deserve it.

Desaun Watson, Josh Allen, Russell Wilson. 19 total seasons, 0 first team all-pros, 1 second team all-pro. Elite talent doesn’t not mean elite players.

 

[Denim Chicken]

IMO talent is a bad word to use for how good a player is. You know who’s one of the least talented QBs in the NFL? Tom Brady. Doesn’t have a great arm, one of the slowest QBs in NFL history, slight frame, not particularly tall. You know who are some of the most talented QBs ever? Jamarcus Russell. Michael Vick. It’s the reason many wanted Ryan Leaf over Peyton Manning. Peyton had better composure, head in the right place, but it was argued that Leaf was more talented. It’s pointless word. In the NFL it’s not what your potential is, but what you do that defines you.

I think athletic maybe a better descriptor here for what you're saying than talent.

When you talk talent, it's the whole package--physicality plays a part, but so does knowledge, composure, decision making, etc...

 

[817Gill]

After everything we have seen from Garoppolo, do you honestly think the 9ers will ask him to come back and pay him 40M a year?

We will never be in the 9ers position, our Garoppolo makes Mahomes/Allen type of money.

Addressed it in the other response but remember Jimmy G was making elite money during their first SB run. He’s still on that contract now and the hit is more palatable but doesn’t change the fact that he was signed to a big deal. It can be done, but you have to be very good at other things like drafting and coaching to pull it off.

We draft well enough, just need a real run-first play action offense to give us a real shot to go far.

https://www.___GET_REAL_URL___/s/ww.../jimmy-garoppolo-san-francisco-49ers-contract

Highest paid at the time and in 2018 had a 37M dollar cap hit which is enormous for back then. Still made the SB and were a play away only a year after he signed his extension.

 

[visionary]

Good defense, not great. It is the reason for our records over the last 3 years. Because our offense was the same.

with a couple of wrong moves this defense can easily be bottom third this year because they won’t get as many turnovers and our offense is very likely to put extra pressure on the defense

 

[817Gill]

IMO talent is a bad word to use for how good a player is. You know who’s one of the least talented QBs in the NFL? Tom Brady. Doesn’t have a great arm, one of the slowest QBs in NFL history, slight frame, not particularly tall. You know who are some of the most talented QBs ever? Jamarcus Russell. Michael Vick. It’s the reason many wanted Ryan Leaf over Peyton Manning. Peyton had better composure, head in the right place, but it was argued that Leaf was more talented. It’s pointless word. In the NFL it’s not what your potential is, but what you do that defines you.

You bring up Aaron Rodgers on Russell Wilson. Why is Russell Wilson not called a choker? Because he’s not a perennial MVP candidate. If you make 5 NFCCGs in your career, and people expect more of you, that means you’re held on an incredible pedestal. None of those other QBs are held in that regard because they don’t yet deserve it.

Desaun Watson, Josh Allen, Russell Wilson. 19 total seasons, 0 first team all-pros, 1 second team all-pro. Elite talent doesn’t not mean elite players.

Tom Brady has elite maybe all time great accuracy and processing ability, which is part of the talent.

Obviously you need more than natural talent, those guys you mentioned didn’t have nearly the work ethic or mental make-up of the guys I mentioned playing today.

All the guys I mentioned have played at an elite level much more consistently than those in tier 2. Can you make Wilson, Watson, Brady, Allen, etc the focal point of your offense and make deep playoff runs? Yes. Can you make Dak, Carr, Cousins, Garappolo the focal point of your offense and make deep playoff runs? No.

If you wanna have a conversation about who’s the top of the top and a shoe in first ballot HOFer as we speak by all means make a thread about it as it’s definitely an interesting topic. But my point is highlighted by the bolded sentences in the previous paragraph. In order for us to make deep playoff runs and give ourselves a real chance at contending, we need to shape our team in the way needed for a tier 2 guy. Run the ball, play good defense, and have high level coaching.

The tier system was to preface the lack of tier 1 QB’s and the fact that you can still win with a tier 2 guy. Saying there’s less tier 1 guys honestly helps my point, which is why I think if you want to have a discussion over who’s truly elite it deserves another thread. This ones about being able to win with a tier 2 guy, just with a more wholistic approach than you’d need with a tier 1 guy.

 

[DFWJC]

If garrapolo wins I guess we can rethink this ...I doubt he will. Pretty sure Rams can outscore them. Yes, guaranteed.

If Trent Dilfer can win a SB, so can Jimmy G.
Doesn't make him more than he is though
Jimmy is by far those worst QB still standing, but that D is red hot

Mahomes
Stafford/Burrow...pick your order
.
.
.
Garoppolo

 

[TheMarathonContinues]

true, but neither was what they once were....like I said, my point is that it takes talent, but what you do with that talent matters and elite ones can elevate them to a superbowl. I don't think Gronk and Brown were the difference between 7-9 and a superbowl win

They made big plays in those playoffs though…mind you the Buccs didn’t really look like a SB team until the playoffs…

 

[Flamma]

with a couple of wrong moves this defense can easily be bottom third this year because they won’t get as many turnovers and our offense is very likely to put extra pressure on the defense

I couldn't agree more. I'm hoping Jerry focuses on this D.

 

[kuyyo_morro]

Can the Cowboys hang in with Chiefs and Bills. We all saw what happened in last 2min of the playoff game between Chiefs and Bills.

We can never play that style if needed. We run the clock out ourselves. Reminds me of a playoff game between Chiefs and Pats. Chiefs were down 20pts in 4th qtr with 10min to go and Alex Smith led them to a 7min TD drive. His stats looked good at end of the game but at the end of the drive game was over. We did a similar thing with the draw 2 weeks back.

 

[RaZon]

I am looking at their careers so far not just last season

Three tiers

1.Tom Brady
2.Aaron Rodgers
3.Russell Wilson.....dying for this to be challenged. Most simply don't know about his numbers. Guy has done things never done before.
4.Patrick Mahomes

5.Matt Ryan
6.Matthew Stafford
7.Derek Carr

8.Dak Prescott
9.Josh Allen...............moving up
10.Lamar Jackson

Joe Burrow soon to be there.

 

[Aerolithe_Lion]

I think athletic maybe a better descriptor here for what you're saying than talent.

When you talk talent, it's the whole package--physicality plays a part, but so does knowledge, composure, decision making, etc...

Even then, a player can have those things and not achieve as much as a player who doesn’t. That doesn’t mean he’s as good for unrealized potential

 

[Aerolithe_Lion]

Tom Brady has elite maybe all time great accuracy and processing ability, which is part of the talent.

Obviously you need more than natural talent, those guys you mentioned didn’t have nearly the work ethic or mental make-up of the guys I mentioned playing today.

All the guys I mentioned have played at an elite level much more consistently than those in tier 2. Can you make Wilson, Watson, Brady, Allen, etc the focal point of your offense and make deep playoff runs? Yes. Can you make Dak, Carr, Cousins, Garappolo the focal point of your offense and make deep playoff runs? No.

If you wanna have a conversation about who’s the top of the top and a shoe in first ballot HOFer as we speak by all means make a thread about it as it’s definitely an interesting topic. But my point is highlighted by the bolded sentences in the previous paragraph. In order for us to make deep playoff runs and give ourselves a real chance at contending, we need to shape our team in the way needed for a tier 2 guy. Run the ball, play good defense, and have high level coaching.

The tier system was to preface the lack of tier 1 QB’s and the fact that you can still win with a tier 2 guy. Saying there’s less tier 1 guys honestly helps my point, which is why I think if you want to have a discussion over who’s truly elite it deserves another thread. This ones about being able to win with a tier 2 guy, just with a more wholistic approach than you’d need with a tier 1 guy.

A strong enough team can take most of those QBs on deep playoff runs, even if they’re a focal point. We’re seeing it with Stafford right now.

If you take a group of military soldiers, the best of the best and present them. Then you take a group of soldiers every acknowledges are not as good as the first group, can you call them your elite squad? There is a noticeable different between the top guys and then next few, they are not the cream of the crop, that is why I say they do not deserve to be called elite.

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

They made big plays in those playoffs though…mind you the Buccs didn’t really look like a SB team until the playoffs…

it takes time for players to come together. its how you finish. they finished with 4 straight wins. losing two very close games to KC and Rams.

 

[zrinkill]

I agree with this thread.

 

[FVSTONE]

Many fans like to lump QB’s into two tiers, elite or not good enough, when in reality there’s three.

(Not going to list all the individuals, just going to give rough numbers on how many fit in each)

Tier 1-Elite/Future HOFer: 6-7 QB’s

Tier 2-Varying levels of good: 9-10 QB’s

Tier 3- Average to below average: 14-15 QB’s

Now when it comes to building a SB team, most people think having a tier 1 guy is the only way to do it. Although it definitely makes it easier, there are other ways to build SB contenders. Keep in mind every QB no matter what tier he falls in needs a certain level of roster and coaching help, while those in tier 1 need less help and those in tier 3 need the most help.

In terms of the Cowboys, we have a tier two guy. Whether you think he’s at the tip top of tier 2 or somewhere in the middle, the vast majority of us know that Dak is not elite but is not below average either. Guys like Dak, Carr, Wentz, Tannehill, Cousins, and Jimmy G have moments and games where they can perform at an elite level; but a lack of high end consistency relegates them to a tier 2 role.

So the question becomes, in the position we are in now, how do we move forward to building the best team possible? Again, although a tier 1 guy solves a lot of issues, tier 2 guys can and have made and won SB’s albeit usually with more help.

There are only 6-7 elite QB’s in the world, if your only plan to build a winner is to find one of those good luck as the odds are not in your favor. You need either a top 10ish pick or an extreme stroke of luck. Put that out of your minds now, we will not be bad enough to pick that high without major injury and you can’t plan for luck. Trading up would be costly and would require we pick the right guy, which the odds are extremely low that we do.

So how do we build a contender with a tier 2 guy? You follow the niners blueprint. Run the ball at a high level, allow your QB to thrive in play action and in situations where the defenses must show their hand. Defined reads, ability to scheme guys open, and allowing the QB to complement the offense as opposed to being the center of it. Add in a strong defense and coaching and you’ve got yourself a tough team that can win and win big.

Trying to change the QB situation is extremely risky, as odds are overwhelmingly low that we can draft or trade for someone in tier 1 with where we draft and salary cap implications around the league. But with the roster we have so far as well as our ability to draft well, pivoting to winning the way tier 2 guys do is the better move.

This defense is not far away from being a top 8ish unit while the offense has plenty of pieces. One more interior D and Olineman, another LB, and one or two more auxiliary pieces like a blocking TE or better FS is what we need to have the roster at the level it needs to be to play the way we need to.

I say all this to set up the focal point of the post, we are not far at all from having the roster necessary to be a true contender. But we must pivot schematically to give us the best chance possible. We can’t build a team in Kansas City’s image, we must build one in San Francisco’s.

And for those who will bring up the salary of our QB, please stop shaking your fist at the sky and complaining about a market that’s out of anyone’s control. QB’s will get paid high amounts from now until the end of time. Unless owners get together and plan to create a salary range for tier 2 QB’s, they will be paid elite money when their time is up next. But as of now, don’t expect to see only 5-6 guys paid high while the rest of the league recycles QB’s until they luck into an elite guy, no franchise is going to do that. After 2-3 years each guy gets overlapped by 3-4 more. Dak’s 3rd highest paid status will be 8th or 9th in a year or two, much more commensurate with his ranking.

If the team focuses on making these schematic changes, this team can be a true contender. Unfortunately, I have zero faith that the two pass happy guys running our offense will see it that way. Regardless, we aren’t too far away, but we must take the right path forward. If we keep scheming and creating the identity of a team with tier 1 QB play we will come up short. Again, you can win with tier 2 play but it must be built correctly and you must know who you are.

Long thread but it sums up how I feel we should move forward and it’s gonna be slow on here for a while so why not take some time and read lol.

When you mentioned SLOW, you must have had the TEN TOE MEDIOCRE SLOTH on your mind. What the Cowboys have is a TEN TOE MEDIOCRE SLOTH who struggles to compete against the good teams. Hell, when was the last time the SLOTH was able to get up early on a GOOD TEAM???? The only sure thing about the SLOTH when he crawls onto the field when facing a GOOD TEAM, is the opposing defensive team is going to force ALOT of 3 and outs before the Boys score any TDs. Actually, the SLOTH will come on strong at the end of a game because the opposing team doesn't mind giving up LATE TDs and passing yards because the game is pretty much over...................