4-3 vs 3-4 and Quinn

[xwalker]

• Instead of focusing on the number of players with their hand down...
• I like to just look at the number of DL between the outside shoulders of the OTs.
  • The 3-4 has 3 DL in that area.
  • The 4-3 has 2 DL in that area.
  • If there are 3 DL in that area but 4 with their hand down, it's really a 3-4 concept.
  • The DEs in a 4-3 can stand up but it doesn't really make them LBs.

• Note: A 3-3-5 is the exact opposite of a 3-4.
  • It uses 4-3 type DEs with 1 DT (i.e. 1 DL between the OTs).

Atlanta with Quinn as Head Coach played both 3-4 and 4-3.

This is a 3-4 alignment from 2020:

 

[Whyjerry]

• Instead of focusing on the number of players with their hand down...
• I like to just look at the number of DL between the outside shoulders of the OTs.
  • The 3-4 has 3 DL in that area.
  • The 4-3 has 2 DL in that area.
  • If there are 3 DL in that area but 4 with their hand down, it's really a 3-4 concept.
  • The DEs in a 4-3 can stand up but it doesn't really make them LBs.

• Note: A 3-3-5 is the exact opposite of a 3-4.
  • It uses 4-3 type DEs with 1 DT (i.e. 1 DL between the OTs).

Atlanta with Quinn as Head Coach played both 3-4 and 4-3.

This is a 3-4 alignment from 2020:

With all the chatter about 3 and 4 man fronts I think little of that matters. Given modern offenses teams line up in nickel the vast majority of snaps. With Neal Dallas will probably play a lot of 3-3-5 with Neal as a hybrid LB/S. I can see Parsons and Twinkle Toes playing at the LOS so it will look more 4-2-5. I guess my point is it’s more about personnel and less about alignment these days. I just pray they simplify the assignments and provide more concrete roles.

 

[xwalker]

With all the chatter about 3 and 4 man fronts I think little of that matters. Given modern offenses teams line up in nickel the vast majority of snaps. With Neal Dallas will probably play a lot of 3-3-5 with Neal as a hybrid LB/S. I can see Parsons and Twinkle Toes playing at the LOS so it will look more 4-2-5. I guess my point is it’s more about personnel and less about alignment these days. I just pray they simplify the assignments and provide more concrete roles.

I expect a significant amount of the normal 4-2-5 Nickel snaps to become 3-3-5 snaps this season.

I disagree about the importance of the base defense. We saw last season that even in the modern era, if a defense can't stop the run it can't succeed.
- Regardless of percent of snaps in base, the base has to succeed or they'll never get to 3rd and long pass rush situations.

 

[Whyjerry]

I expect a significant amount of the normal 4-2-5 Nickel snaps to become 3-3-5 snaps this season.

I disagree about the importance of the base defense. We saw last season that even in the modern era, if a defense can't stop the run it can't succeed.
- Regardless of percent of snaps in base, the base has to succeed or they'll never get to 3rd and long pass rush situations.

Base defense is nickel.

 

[Typhus]

• Instead of focusing on the number of players with their hand down...
• I like to just look at the number of DL between the outside shoulders of the OTs.
  • The 3-4 has 3 DL in that area.
  • The 4-3 has 2 DL in that area.
  • If there are 3 DL in that area but 4 with their hand down, it's really a 3-4 concept.
  • The DEs in a 4-3 can stand up but it doesn't really make them LBs.

• Note: A 3-3-5 is the exact opposite of a 3-4.
  • It uses 4-3 type DEs with 1 DT (i.e. 1 DL between the OTs).

Atlanta with Quinn as Head Coach played both 3-4 and 4-3.

This is a 3-4 alignment from 2020:

Thats Quinns scheme, his vision and why players like Neal were signed early, he was a target much like Kazee.
The transition and flexibility to move Neal from WLB to safety is a communication talent as much as it is physical, so Kazee addition was part of Quinns equation at least early on until the moving parts on this defense start to understand the scheme.
Just using Neal as the prime example of the pre snap movement that Quinn wants to do,, rather or not the other pieces fall in place is the big question,, as always if we cant stop the run all schemes fail.

 

[john van brocklin]

• Instead of focusing on the number of players with their hand down...
• I like to just look at the number of DL between the outside shoulders of the OTs.
  • The 3-4 has 3 DL in that area.
  • The 4-3 has 2 DL in that area.
  • If there are 3 DL in that area but 4 with their hand down, it's really a 3-4 concept.
  • The DEs in a 4-3 can stand up but it doesn't really make them LBs.

• Note: A 3-3-5 is the exact opposite of a 3-4.
  • It uses 4-3 type DEs with 1 DT (i.e. 1 DL between the OTs).

Atlanta with Quinn as Head Coach played both 3-4 and 4-3.

This is a 3-4 alignment from 2020:

I am hoping Quinn can turn this unit around.
They were so bad last year, that improvement should not be difficult.

 

[Rockport]

I am hoping Quinn can turn this unit around.
They were so bad last year, that improvement should not be difficult.

Can only go up from that mess.

 

[TwoCentPlain]

I am hoping Quinn can turn this unit around.
They were so bad last year, that improvement should not be difficult.

Quinn’s defensive unit for the Falcons last year was awful.

 

[Dak_Attack_09]

• Instead of focusing on the number of players with their hand down...
• I like to just look at the number of DL between the outside shoulders of the OTs.
  • The 3-4 has 3 DL in that area.
  • The 4-3 has 2 DL in that area.
  • If there are 3 DL in that area but 4 with their hand down, it's really a 3-4 concept.
  • The DEs in a 4-3 can stand up but it doesn't really make them LBs.

• Note: A 3-3-5 is the exact opposite of a 3-4.
  • It uses 4-3 type DEs with 1 DT (i.e. 1 DL between the OTs).

Atlanta with Quinn as Head Coach played both 3-4 and 4-3.

This is a 3-4 alignment from 2020:

Bad comparison, I would use the Seattles’s 4-3 which fits Dallas the best.

 

[Dak_Attack_09]

I am hoping Quinn can turn this unit around.
They were so bad last year, that improvement should not be difficult.

4 DL with hands down down, none of this garbage hybrid pooo.

 

[john van brocklin]

Can only go up from that mess.

You know it!

 

[john van brocklin]

Quinn’s defensive unit for the Falcons last year was awful.

Well that's a Debbie downer

 

[john van brocklin]

4 DL with hands down down, none of this garbage hybrid pooo.

Poop?

 

[Parcells4Life]

I expect a significant amount of the normal 4-2-5 Nickel snaps to become 3-3-5 snaps this season.

I disagree about the importance of the base defense. We saw last season that even in the modern era, if a defense can't stop the run it can't succeed.
- Regardless of percent of snaps in base, the base has to succeed or they'll never get to 3rd and long pass rush situations.

The easy way to counter that now is run out of the gun with 3-4 WRs. Teams can’t play base and now most RBs coming the league have almost run exclusive from the gun or pistol in college so it’s what they’re comfortable with.

 

[jterrell]

We just really do not know.
Quinn took the off-time to discuss and tweak his systems or so he told us.
And he has to adjust to the talent at hand.

I am "hopeful" they will be multiple and use more players on defense by having various "sets".
Some sets created week of just for specific opponents.

But we just don't know.
McCarthy and Nolan told us all last year well into the pre-season they were a 4 down team then walked out in a 3-4 day week 1.

So at this point io gotta see it to believe it. Whatever it is.

 

[xwalker]

Base defense is nickel.

That is a silly fan response that I see often.

Coaches refer to run defense as "base".

Base is not a reference to the formation that is used most often.

 

[xwalker]

The easy way to counter that now is run out of the gun with 3-4 WRs. Teams can’t play base and now most RBs coming the league have almost run exclusive from the gun or pistol in college so it’s what they’re comfortable with.

There is not set formula.

The Rams made it to the Super Bowl for the 2018 season by using almost exclusively 3 WR sets (About 94% of the snaps).

The 49ers made it to the Super Bowl for the 2019 season using a FB more than any other team in the league.

In general offenses will use formations that the specific defense struggles to defend.

 

[xwalker]

Bad comparison, I would use the Seattles’s 4-3 which fits Dallas the best.

You do not know your backside from a hole in the ground.

 

[xwalker]

Thats Quinns scheme, his vision and why players like Neal were signed early, he was a target much like Kazee.
The transition and flexibility to move Neal from WLB to safety is a communication talent as much as it is physical, so Kazee addition was part of Quinns equation at least early on until the moving parts on this defense start to understand the scheme.
Just using Neal as the prime example of the pre snap movement that Quinn wants to do,, rather or not the other pieces fall in place is the big question,, as always if we cant stop the run all schemes fail.

The top value of Kazee and Neal to Quinn is that they are "his guys" and know his system.

Mike Nolan's biggest issue was that the players didn't buy into his scheme and he didn't have any ex-players to help with that issue.

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

• Instead of focusing on the number of players with their hand down...
• I like to just look at the number of DL between the outside shoulders of the OTs.
  • The 3-4 has 3 DL in that area.
  • The 4-3 has 2 DL in that area.
  • If there are 3 DL in that area but 4 with their hand down, it's really a 3-4 concept.
  • The DEs in a 4-3 can stand up but it doesn't really make them LBs.

• Note: A 3-3-5 is the exact opposite of a 3-4.
  • It uses 4-3 type DEs with 1 DT (i.e. 1 DL between the OTs).

Atlanta with Quinn as Head Coach played both 3-4 and 4-3.

This is a 3-4 alignment from 2020:

its a simplified explanation. but over all the 3-4 and 4-3 have blended over time....one simple difference is the stand up DE. and in a 3-4, in old days, used to be a LB, true LB, but over time given its success in pass rushing (and how they disguised the designated pass rushers), the OLBs on the weak side (even some on strong side) became designated pass rushers, ala Ware. I doubt if Ware ever dropped into pass coverage, but he was considered a LB. Parcells tried the same thing with Ellis on the strong side and had limited success

its mostly around how you line up, between the tackles, as well as which shoulder of the tackle. its not necessarily just between tackles, DEs can line up on the inside shoulder or outside shoulder....

but most 3-4, the OLB on the weak side is a stand up pass rusher. allows them to get a better view of back field and pre-snap movements and most of these pass rushers have a easier time starting the rush from standup position, that gives them a step up (or faster)....last year they tried to make Lawrence into a stand up pass rusher and he struggled with his initial step. it wasn't an easy transition for him and he went back to his hands down on the ground and had more success.

I assume this year gregory will be the stand up pass rusher. most of these guys are on the smaller side and in the 3-4 the DL alignment are slightly different, including what they do. sometimes the DE lines up between the guard and tackle or over the guard or I have seen them line up over tackle, then overloading one side of the line up. forcing offensive pass blocking....it also depends on the personnel you have, but I go back to my initial statement, these days most teams run a blend of 3-4 or 4-3. its hard to distinguish sometimes. not many teams run a true 3-4 (like pittsburgh)....