6-1: Jason Whitlock on M Vick (AOL.com column)

[jterrell]

he's being stereotypical limiting it to blacks, but any gang culture that condones and preaches violence is apt to be involved in a violent sport such as dog-fighting

I knew of a dog fighting ring that operated in Lubbock.
It was run largely by the very non-rap oriented, very all white, very all male population of the outlying county and reportedly had full support of the sheriff at the time.

Rap music has been around what 25 years now and a couple of mixed examples that truly were not at all similar is the basis for the argument??
Snoop Dogg and DMX call themselves dogs and identify with them.

Michael Vick is an idiot, that does not have anything to do with rap music.
Whitlock was crying about rap music when the Imus story came up as well.

Something tells me Imus wasn't listening to tons of rap when he got the inspiration for his insults. And it doesn't mean there isn't fault in certain lyrics but all genres of music have that. Always have and always will.

In country music I tend to prefer the most outlaw variety, and the hardest rock and most same with rap music. Most of it is probably offensive to someone somewhere for some reason.

How good can a musical group be if they have never been picketed or protested against???

lol.


BTW, in that same Lubbock Community they wouldn't let Marilyn Manson perform.

dogfighting=good; devil music=bad hehehe

 

[Yeagermeister]

I knew of a dog fighting ring that operated in Lubbock.
It was run largely by the very non-rap oriented, very all white, very all male population of the outlying county and reportedly had full support of the sheriff at the time.

Rap music has been around what 25 years now and a couple of mixed examples that truly were not at all similar is the basis for the argument??
Snoop Dogg and DMX call themselves dogs and identify with them.

Michael Vick is an idiot, that does not have anything to do with rap music.
Whitlock was crying about rap music when the Imus story came up as well.

Something tells me Imus wasn't listening to tons of rap when he got the inspiration for his insults. And it doesn't mean there isn't fault in certain lyrics but all genres of music have that. Always have and always will.

In country music I tend to prefer the most outlaw variety, and the hardest rock and most same with rap music. Most of it is probably offensive to someone somewhere for some reason.

How good can a musical group be if they have never been picketed or protested against???

lol.


BTW, in that same Lubbock Community they wouldn't let Marilyn Manson perform.

dogfighting=good; devil music=bad hehehe

I'd rather go to a dog fighting match than have to sit through a MM concert.

 

[jterrell]

I'd rather go to a dog fighting match than have to sit through a MM concert.

ROFL.

I wouldn't disagree.
I like one Manson song.


But my favorite song of all is probably : black dog... how ironic.

 

[L-O-Jete]

I knew of a dog fighting ring that operated in Lubbock.
It was run largely by the very non-rap oriented, very all white, very all male population of the outlying county and reportedly had full support of the sheriff at the time.

Rap music has been around what 25 years now and a couple of mixed examples that truly were not at all similar is the basis for the argument??
Snoop Dogg and DMX call themselves dogs and identify with them.

Michael Vick is an idiot, that does not have anything to do with rap music.
Whitlock was crying about rap music when the Imus story came up as well.

Something tells me Imus wasn't listening to tons of rap when he got the inspiration for his insults. And it doesn't mean there isn't fault in certain lyrics but all genres of music have that. Always have and always will.

In country music I tend to prefer the most outlaw variety, and the hardest rock and most same with rap music. Most of it is probably offensive to someone somewhere for some reason.

How good can a musical group be if they have never been picketed or protested against???

lol.


BTW, in that same Lubbock Community they wouldn't let Marilyn Manson perform.

dogfighting=good; devil music=bad hehehe

I don't think it's rap per se, it's the entire "culture" that they are trying to sell. I know it pi***** me off when someone sells the idea that if you are such and such THIS is your "culture" so you have to worship this or you are a traitor, sell out, etc. GangstaRap tells you you're either a Gangsta or you're a P*ss* and it has a lot of pull with kids, even more if some famous idiot like vick glorifies it and I think that is what has Whittlock fuming.

 

[Kevinicus]

I usually think of Whitlock as an ignorant, arrogant idiot who hasn't a clue about anything he writes and simply pulls crap out of his hind quarters when he comes up with his articles.

Lately, however, I have found myself agreeing with him, as much as it pains me to say it. First his well done articles on the Imus "situation" and now this. Maybe he's making an effort to be a real journalist now.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Whitfield never once mentioned corn rows. That's something you've invented, all on your own.



And of course he said none of that either. The real issue here, Fuzzy, is you're putting words in Whitfield's mouth and saying he's wrong. But the only wrong I see here is that you're making it up as you go along.

You're not willing to address what Whitfield is really saying. And it's troubling, because Whitfield's claims are straightforwarrd enough.

1) He claims there is an element of popular culture that glorifies violence, popularizes violent dog breeds, and this element includes positive references to dog fighting. He gives examples of the same.

2) He claims that Michael V is influenced by that element of popular culture.

You know, sometimes these kinds of cultural claims are true.

Rock music, 1960s-1970s. People accused it of glorifying drug use. There was an element of popular culture that made it seem desirable and sexy, even.

And I guess if I point out that the Beatles and Elton John, for that matter, sang a song named Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds that glorified drug use, and pointed out that people were influenced by that (I can't name any offhand, so I'll choose Monty Python's Flying Circus.. yeah..), that of course I'm an anti British bigot, that I don't like Bass Ale and must think that all Britishers are little nerds with weird taste in glasses.

Hell, it makes as much sense as your accusations against Whitlock.

David.

From the article:

Vick is pictured looking very Snoop Dogg-esque, cornrows and goateed.

i would advise before you start talking about how i dont know what the article is saying that perhaps you should read it yourself.

At best its stereotyping negatively at its worst. If i want to put my hair in corn rows, wear baggie jeans and listen to Eazy-E while drinking OE that doesnt meant that i am going to start slanging crack, beating my girlfriend or start a dogfighting ring.

Its a part of culture and as per normal people that dont participate in that culture start making assumptions that have no basis.

And its funny that you mention the Betles because they definitely preached antiauthoritarianism and smack and acid use. So classic rock is evil. How about Johnny Cash he promoted violence and drug use. Any country music is bad.Creedence promoted draft dodging. Fact is any music is a simple copout for people that dont want to fix the real source of the problem.

You want to know why most people resort to crime? Because they are poor and uneducated. It doesnt matter if its 1968 or 2007.

Fact of the matter is that we make our own choices and while you may not like some musicians you live in a country where freedom of speech is sacred so your going to have to deal with it. If you dont want your kids to grow up abusive to women then teach them to treat a lady like a lady. My mother did and despite copious amounts of Slick Rick, Ludacris, Eazy-E and Snoop Dogg for some reason I never beat my girl. if you dont want your kid to rob liquor stores or deal coke then teach them the life skills they need to be a independent functional human being.

MencaeIISociety didnt make Newton sell dope, Gangsta Nip is not what made Allen Iverson throw his wife in the snow any more than Nino Brown made Michael Vick buy a dog. im sorry but if you want to fix all that crime then look to the people in section 8 housing and the surrounding schools not what they listen to.

You are certainly putting the cart before the horse. Vick doesnt act thee way he does becasue of DMX or whatever stupid music Whitfield is guessing he listens to. He grew up in a awful section of Newport News, VA. Allen iverson is from the same area. The music is a product of the environment not the other way around.

 

[burmafrd]

This crap about its all about how he grew up and therefore its not his fault is a joke. He went to college. He is educated. Its HIS choice. AND if he is involved with dog fighting there is no one else to blame but himself.

 

[Maikeru-sama]

it's awful hard to play the victim card when your very name is "gansta" and the songs you sing about include killing police, your fellow "brother" and so forth. this is real - this is what kids hear and act upon. this "video games are the cause of our downfall" - great. pong came into existance in 1975 give or take. did we have violence and "problem children" before then?

helter skelter hell yea.

you wanna dress like a thug, sing like a thug, act like a thug, don't get all amazed people think you're a ... thug.

The victim card was never pulled out of my pocket and displayed in any portion of my post. Being a former resident of the neighborhoods being discussed, I just offered some other alternative views on the subject at hand.

Furthermore, when was pong ever considered a violent video game?

The world, including the United States of America, is an extremely violent and dangerous place, always has been and as long as you have in existence these imperfect beings known as Human, it probably always will be. Murder, rape, genocide, degradation of women, slavery, kidnapping, war, terrorism and all other forms of historical ills were occuring before the inception of "Gangsta Rap" and therefore it shouldn't be a surprise that it happens concurrently with the genre and it will most certainly be around long after "Gangsta Rap" and for that matter, all other present forms of muscial expression are gone from this world.

- Mike G.

 

[burmafrd]

Gangsta rap just CONTRIBUTES to the problem.
And you still claim it has no effect?

 

[iceberg]

That really is the big and dirty secret, but Gangster Rappers will continue to be the scapegoat for the root cause of all social ills, past, present and future.

- Mike G.

The victim card was never pulled out of my pocket and displayed in any portion of my post. Being a former resident of the neighborhoods being discussed, I just offered some other alternative views on the subject at hand.

Furthermore, when was pong ever considered a violent video game?

The world, including the United States of America, is an extremely violent and dangerous place, always has been and as long as you have in existence these imperfect beings known as Human, it probably always will be. Murder, rape, genocide, degradation of women, slavery, kidnapping, war, terrorism and all other forms of historical ills were occuring before the inception of "Gangsta Rap" and therefore it shouldn't be a surprise that it happens concurrently with the genre and it will most certainly be around long after "Gangsta Rap" and for that matter, all other present forms of muscial expression are gone from this world.

- Mike G.

did you or did you not say something incredibally stupid like:

Gangster Rappers will continue to be the scapegoat for the root cause of all social ills, past, present and future.

how in the name of ancient nordic gods can it be responsible for things that were happening long before you even existed? this is why i get so tickled when people say the US causes terrorism.

we had terrorists long before we had a USA, so that can't be possible. it's far more likely we're dealing with an age old problem like many others are.

if you wanna blame video games, i reject that theory 100%. you wanna blame SOME video games, i'm more open to talking but you're going to need to quit making stupid blanket statements/lies like:

Gangster Rappers will continue to be the scapegoat for the root cause of all social ills, past, present and future.

gansta rap perpetuates the problem and encourages it. cop killin, ho slappin, and the like - it makes it "ok" to the youth and that's wrong.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

This crap about its all about how he grew up and therefore its not his fault is a joke. He went to college. He is educated. Its HIS choice. AND if he is involved with dog fighting there is no one else to blame but himself.

Gangsta rap just CONTRIBUTES to the problem.
And you still claim it has no effect?

Which one is it burm? Is he responsible for his own actions and the environament he grew up in not matter or did music make him do it? You are aware that your contadicting yourself right?

Have you actually listened to any of it?

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

did you or did you not say something incredibally stupid like:

Gangster Rappers will continue to be the scapegoat for the root cause of all social ills, past, present and future.

how in the name of ancient nordic gods can it be responsible for things that were happening long before you even existed? this is why i get so tickled when people say the US causes terrorism.

we had terrorists long before we had a USA, so that can't be possible. it's far more likely we're dealing with an age old problem like many others are.

if you wanna blame video games, i reject that theory 100%. you wanna blame SOME video games, i'm more open to talking but you're going to need to quit making stupid blanket statements/lies like:

Gangster Rappers will continue to be the scapegoat for the root cause of all social ills, past, present and future.

gansta rap perpetuates the problem and encourages it. cop killin, ho slappin, and the like - it makes it "ok" to the youth and that's wrong.

there is no evidence to support that music causes sociopathic behavior no matter how much clockwork oragne you watch.

 

[iceberg]

there is no evidence to support that music causes sociopathic behavior no matter how much clockwork oragne you watch.

in the end i agree. if someone is going to be a sociopath, they're going to be one. the music can heighten the mood but hell, anything around us can be used for "bad" if that's your goal. that doesn't inherantly make everything "bad".

never watched clockwork - too boring.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

in the end i agree. if someone is going to be a sociopath, they're going to be one. the music can heighten the mood but hell, anything around us can be used for "bad" if that's your goal. that doesn't inherantly make everything "bad".

never watched clockwork - too boring.

you tried to watch it and got bored? now that is something i havent heard. ive heard people say they were disturbed or weirded out but never board.

on a different note the Geto Boys cause violence to fax machines

 

[iceberg]

now THAT was a funny movie but it didn't send me into the streets to cause chaos. : )

if you wanna ge weirded out how about boxing helena?

 

[Maikeru-sama]

did you or did you not say something incredibally stupid like:

Gangster Rappers will continue to be the scapegoat for the root cause of all social ills, past, present and future.

how in the name of ancient nordic gods can it be responsible for things that were happening long before you even existed? this is why i get so tickled when people say the US causes terrorism.

we had terrorists long before we had a USA, so that can't be possible. it's far more likely we're dealing with an age old problem like many others are.

if you wanna blame video games, i reject that theory 100%. you wanna blame SOME video games, i'm more open to talking but you're going to need to quit making stupid blanket statements/lies like:

Gangster Rappers will continue to be the scapegoat for the root cause of all social ills, past, present and future.

gansta rap perpetuates the problem and encourages it. cop killin, ho slappin, and the like - it makes it "ok" to the youth and that's wrong.

With all due respect, that is exactly my argument. You have some members of the anti-rap establishment that insinuate that if Gangsta Rap makes a quick exit, a majority of the social ills in society will magically cease to exist. While doing so, this group seems to also want to relay the totally absurd message to the masses that before Gangsta Rap hit the scene, you didn't have a problem with violence and anger among the youth of this country.

Don't take my word for it, I personally believe you said it best:

did we have violence and "problem children" before then?

Do we really need to take a trip down pre-Gangsta Rap memory lane here and visit some of more violent events when society certainly wasn't at its finest hour? Off the top of my head, the violence of the Prohibition Era? The Lynching Era in the 1880s - 1920s? Irish and/or Italian in Mafia Gang Land Chicago, New York and other big cities?, the Crips and Bloods in the late 1970s, Highschool Shootings. The list could go on and on and all of the aforementioned violent crime history pre-dates Gangsta Rap and to add, alot of the crimes being committed during these violent crime eras without a doubt involved young people.


Now Does "Gangsta Rap" and their fringe video and lyrical messages do some harm to Society at large, absolutely, but so does other forms of entertainment such as The Sopranos, Grand Theft Auto and some of the extreme forms of Rock/Heavy Metal but the Anti-Rap establishment will never admit that.

Now I am going to take the advice of my co-workers, who decided to drop in and take a peek and exit this debate. A succinct version of what they said, you are going to believe what you want to believe and I am certainly going to believe what I want to believe, which in the end, makes this country great.

I will just go ahead and take the high road and remove from memory the accusations of lying, the brow beating sessions of "if I want to dress like a thug" yada yada yada and the very sly move of trying to put me in bed with the Anti-War-on-terror crowd just because, quite frankley, I disagree with everything you say.

 

[iceberg]

With all due respect, that is exactly my argument. You have some members of the anti-rap establishment that insinuate that if Gangsta Rap makes a quick exit, a majority of the social ills in society will magically cease to exist. While doing so, this group seems to also want to relay the totally absurd message to the masses that before Gangsta Rap hit the scene, you didn't have a problem with violence and anger among the youth of this country.

Don't take my word for it, I personally believe you said it best:



Do we really need to take a trip down pre-Gangsta Rap memory lane here and visit some of more violent events when society certainly wasn't at its finest hour? Off the top of my head, the violence of the Prohibition Era? The Lynching Era in the 1880s - 1920s? Irish and/or Italian in Mafia Gang Land Chicago, New York and other big cities?, the Crips and Bloods in the late 1970s, Highschool Shootings. The list could go on and on and all of the aforementioned violent crime history pre-dates Gangsta Rap and to add, alot of the crimes being committed during these violent crime eras without a doubt involved young people.


Now Does "Gangsta Rap" and their fringe video and lyrical messages do some harm to Society at large, absolutely, but so does other forms of entertainment such as The Sopranos, Grand Theft Auto and some of the extreme forms of Rock/Heavy Metal but the Anti-Rap establishment will never admit that.

Now I am going to take the advice of my co-workers, who decided to drop in and take a peek and exit this debate. A succinct version of what they said, you are going to believe what you want to believe and I am certainly going to believe what I want to believe, which in the end, makes this country great.

I will just go ahead and take the high road and remove from memory the accusations of lying, the brow beating sessions of "if I want to dress like a thug" yada yada yada and the very sly move of trying to put me in bed with the Anti-War-on-terror crowd just because, quite frankley, I disagree with everything you say.

you do that. do you also disagree when you said:
With all due respect, that is exactly my argument.

in reference to what i said, or do you:
disagree with everything you say. ?

even if by disagreeing with everything i say you also disagree where i make your argument for you, making you wrong in the process.

my stance remains - if you dress like a thug, act like a thug, sing like a thug, people will think you a thug.

i don't exactly "blend" in either. i'm 6'4", 320, long hair, biker looking kinda dude that carries a price to pay for "me being me" too.

preconveived notions are just "1st level thought" and we all have them - even you. unless you disagree with me. when you agree with me. wow, that's still confusing me.

i don't like gansta rap but i never saw the full value of the beatles either. then again i don't care for rap. it's 4th grade rhyming to me that takes a HUGE rap talent to even make me acknowledge it's there (like gansta's paradise -now that was a good song!)

big deal. i'm sure you don't care for some of the music that means a lot to me either. who cares? someone else liking it shouldn't have to validate my own thoughts of it unless i'm just a pure follower - and i've known some of those too.

there's violence because people want more than they have or a matter of survival. it took time to put all the rest in the way like race, religion, (i doubt the cavemen killing cavemen were too worried about baptist or catholic) and things we learn along the way.

there are actions that perpetuate and glorify the "negative" actions and if that floats your boat, bon voyage. but accept that with that mentality comes a counter mentality by course of human nature.

feel free to agree the disagree cause at this point you're really arguing against yourself cause on the whole i agree with you. you just need to get past your part to see the whole.

 

[silverbear]

What an absurd argument... who in his right mind would ever believe that a series of "songs" glorifying such things as beating women, shooting each other, drugs and the like would lead young, impressionable kids to think such behavior was "cool"??

Does gangsta rap CAUSE antisocial behavior?? Of course not... but does it ENCOURAGE such behavior, make it more likely to happen?? Especially when those "singing" the praises of such behavior are often going out and LIVING the lifestyle they glorify... you're an idiot if you don't understand that it does...

Now, kindly tell me what the ATTRACTION is to "songs" glorifying thug behavior?? Where's the musical merit, where's the social merit?? Hell, half the time I can't even understand what the mush-mouths are SAYING; James Brown would have come off as articulate alongside most of those clowns...

I'm not saying it should be banned, freedom of speech is important, and it should even include speech that I find deeply repugnant... but I'm certainly saying it shouldn't be DEFENDED, because it's worthless GARBAGE...

It really is true, rap is crap... for sure, it ain't MUSIC...