7 Reasons I Opposed Ryan/Kiffin Transition

[jobberone]

I think that applies to every defense
I said when the switch was made that this was not a good idea, and I (along with others) got crucified. The problem is that we changed everything at once, we moved away from our strengths and highlighted our weaknesses by switching to this scheme. Our D line depth is an issue, and this is now highlighted by putting 4 of them on the field. Our LB's are a strength, and we take 1 off the field and limit Carter's playmaking ability by putting him as an OLB, whereas before he had the speed to be a perfect ILB. And finally, the strength of our corners are man coverage, so naturally we change to a zone heavy scheme.

This D relies on coming up and making tackles ensuring small gains. Otherwise you'll see what we saw. I didn't just mean missed tackles but coming up quickly enough to make those shallow passes short gains. It's not designed to break up as many passes but to limit yardage gained looking for a TO, penalties yada to stop the offense. But you're right. All defenses want to limit yardage. Not sure I'm getting across the idea well here.

 

[TimHortons]

This D relies on coming up and making tackles ensuring small gains. Otherwise you'll see what we saw. I didn't just mean missed tackles but coming up quickly enough to make those shallow passes short gains. It's not designed to break up as many passes but to limit yardage gained looking for a TO, penalties yada to stop the offense. But you're right. All defenses want to limit yardage. Not sure I'm getting across the idea well here.

I understand what you're saying. It's not going very well though, which is odd because we our LB's are usually pretty good tacklers. Teams are absolutely killing us on those little hook routes in behind the Dline in front of the LB's. Moreno had 57 on 5 catches just by sneaking out of the backfield and settling in that gap, and Gates actually did that as well. Our coaches did not adjust to that at all, I thought they would man up on the RB out of the backfield at some point, but that never happened. That's a serious issue, imagine McCoy or Forte catching those little hook routes, not good. Maybe the answer is to man up on the RB with a LB if they start doing that, then adjust the other 2 backers zones accordingly, I dunno but something needs to be done about that.

 

[Idgit]

Loving all these belated what's-wrong-with-the-secondary-anyway threads masquerading as original criticism. Our pass defense sure doesn't look fixed the last few weeks. So far, we're still in positive TO differential territory, which is a plus.

 

[T-RO]

The free release is what kills me.........It is so important to bump and jam a wr at the line to throw of time and timing

I agree x 10. But zone and bump/jam are opposing notions, aren't they?

 

[T-RO]

curious. i don't know, just asking. was this during the ncaa sanctions when usc might have been impacted by transfers and limited scholarships?

Yes they had limited scholarships (Quantity). But their talent was good enough to merit them a #1 preseason ranking.

 

[T-RO]

I think that applies to every defense
I said when the switch was made that this was not a good idea, and I (along with others) got crucified. The problem is that we changed everything at once, we moved away from our strengths and highlighted our weaknesses by switching to this scheme. Our D line depth is an issue, and this is now highlighted by putting 4 of them on the field. Our LB's are a strength, and we take 1 off the field and limit Carter's playmaking ability by putting him as an OLB, whereas before he had the speed to be a perfect ILB. And finally, the strength of our corners are man coverage, so naturally we change to a zone heavy scheme.

That was my experience too....though perhaps crucifixion is a tad strong of an adjective. Fans here were 5-1 in volume sold on Jerry's transformation of the D... and the burial of Rob Ryan.

 

[cannonball44]

they replaced the wrong coordinator.

Man. I was ridiculed when I said we shouldve kept Rob Ryan.

 

[Sarge]

jerry might be a worse judge of coaches then player personnel.

He is problem #1.

 

[sureletsrace]

You have some solid, if unspectacular and obvious, points. But we are only 5 games into the transition. No matter how simple the defensive scheme is, there will be growing pains.

And are you seriously comparing Rob Ryan to Jimmy Johnson and Monte Kiffin to ...Barry Switzer?

 

[T-RO]

You have some solid, if unspectacular and obvious, points. But we are only 5 games into the transition. No matter how simple the defensive scheme is, there will be growing pains.

And are you seriously comparing Rob Ryan to Jimmy Johnson and Monte Kiffin to ...Barry Switzer?

Where did I compare the 4? Switzer doesn't belong in the same sentence. Kiffin was a good NFL coach...10-15 years ago. What I did say is that the same GM is in charge of repeated leadership malfunctions when it comes to our coaching changes, especially when he has an easy fall guy and needs to shake things up to sell tickets.

 

[T-RO]

You have some solid, if unspectacular and obvious, points.

Why weren't they obvious to 80% of the fans here this past offseason who praised the change? And why weren't the obvious points to Jerry?

My 7 points sure should have been obvious. I've written nothing clever and nothing deep.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

I'm not going to rip on the Kiffin hire yet.

It's too early.

This team has just played the #1 and #2 rated QB's in the NFL... Yeah, they earned some of their ratings due to the Cowboy defense, but they've both been lighting up other defenses.

Ryan certainly wasn't any great shakes the last two years.

Look at what "powerhouse" offenses the Saints have played so far this season...

Atlanta
Arizona
Tampa Bay
Miami
Chicago

Arizona and TB are near worthless on offense. Miami is a step above but not much more than that.

Roddy White wasn't 100% to start the season. And Chicago has a good offense but Cutler isn't Rivers (this season) or Manning.

Lets see a few more games.

 

[boardn10]

Wow, I agree 100%! I believe Rob Ryan is a genius D coordinator. I was depressed when he left. His D had so many injuries while he was here. His D was top 5 for a while, when he had healthy players.

This new defense is outdated and not a preferred D to go against today's offenses. 3-4 works better. We have an old fashioned defense with a lack of talent, especially on the D line due to injuries. It really is a mess and depressing. We will have to score at least 30 points a game to have a chance. Luckily the offense is top tier in my opinion.

I really think guys like Claiborne and Carr are so over rated. Only LB I like is Lee and the line is a mess without a healthy Ware, Rat and Spencer. The D may need an overhaul.

I want to revisit a number of the arguments I invoked last January and why I was puzzled, miffed and appalled by the coaching change Jerry Jones wrought on our defense.

1. Kiffin is not only 73(!)...he was several years removed from the NFL...and the league has changed considerably.

2. Kiffin had been unsuccessful (very much so) as a defensive college coach in recent years, even with the luxury of coaching highly regarded USC talent. If he's such a genius and his system is easy...how does one explain those results?

3. Bend-but-don't-Break sucks. The shallow middle of the field is the heart of the field and this defense yields it up.

4. We lacked the proper personnel for this flavor of 4-3 Cover-Two...something even Tony Dungy said. On top of that we spent big money on Brandon Carr and a premium #1 pick on Claiborne...and these guys were borne to play man-to-man. Kiffin's move diminishes what those two do best.

5. Rob Ryan was not a reasonable scapegoat but in fact had done a remarkable job considering the near total wipe-out of the defensive roster by injury. This season Ryan is doing a stunning job in turning a Saint defense that was 32nd in the league last year.

6. Ryan is a very bright innovator and his players love going to war for him.

7. Ryan had turned the light on for several players, including Lee, Hatcher and Carter.

Bonus reason: When it fails...which I said it would...we'll be right back into yet another transition in 2014. This was just another massive miscalculation by Jerry Jones...the same GM who replaced epic Jimmy Johnson with buffoon Barry Switzer.

 

[Zekeats]

I agree x 10. But zone and bump/jam are opposing notions, aren't they?

Yes, but they can be applied.........and they can do both zone and man to man

 

[diehard2294]

Right after the Rams game...when people were singing hallelujah...I started a thread with this name:
Wade>Ryan>Kiffin

I've never wavered or wilted on this.

Pat Kirwin was on Sirius today and he listed those three coaches and said look at the pedigree and how the defense has performed under each one?

He said it's the players not the coaches

 

[T-RO]

Pat Kirwin was on Sirius today and he listed those three coaches and said look at the pedigree and how the defense has performed under each one?

He said it's the players not the coaches

I'd agree w/Pat that it's mostly the players/talent. I'm gathering you do to, diehard? But aside from what Marinelli can do in training up linemen....I'm not a fan of the transition for the other reasons I stated.

 

[diehard2294]

I'd agree w/Pat that it's mostly the players/talent. I'm gathering you do to, diehard? But aside from what Marinelli can do in training up linemen....I'm not a fan of the transition for the other reasons I stated.

we don't have the pieces right now to be a solid defense, We are playing with DLineman who we picked off the streets and Ware is hurt along with Hatcher.

Lee is still adjusting to the 4-3 and Carter looks lost, add in a rookie safety and one that really doesn't have much time starting. Throw in the subpar play of cornerback Mo and what you have is a defense that is still trying to adjust. I was hoping they would continue flying to the ball.

Let's hope they can get it together and soon!

 

[Yakuza Rich]

I want to revisit a number of the arguments I invoked last January and why I was puzzled, miffed and appalled by the coaching change Jerry Jones wrought on our defense.

1. Kiffin is not only 73(!)...he was several years removed from the NFL...and the league has changed considerably.

The scheme isn't outdated though. The Bears, Falcons, Minnesota, etc, all run the same scheme. And Marinelli was the D-Coordinator for the Bears. He last coached in the league in 2008 and had a good defense that year (6th in Defensive Efficiency according to FO.com).

Has the league changed considerably?

Well, the read-option changed things. But that has already been figured out.

The offenses haven't change so much. Athletic pass receiving TE's were en vogue. So where shotgun-happy offenses.

I can give you the 73 years old thing, although he seems to be up for that part of the challenge.

2. Kiffin had been unsuccessful (very much so) as a defensive college coach in recent years, even with the luxury of coaching highly regarded USC talent. If he's such a genius and his system is easy...how does one explain those results?

College is much different than the pros. In college, Phillip Fulmer, Mack Brown, Barry Switzer and company are some of the most successful coaches. Parcells was wildly unsuccessful as a coach in college. USC lost talent due to NCAA punishment and it appears that his son is to coaching as Carrot Top is to comedy.

And again, Marinelli is the D-Coordinator and was the D-Coordinator to a good Bears defense in the same scheme.

3. Bend-but-don't-Break sucks. The shallow middle of the field is the heart of the field and this defense yields it up.

They have more problems getting players out on the flats.

4. We lacked the proper personnel for this flavor of 4-3 Cover-Two...something even Tony Dungy said. On top of that we spent big money on Brandon Carr and a premium #1 pick on Claiborne...and these guys were borne to play man-to-man. Kiffin's move diminishes what those two do best.

Carr has been fine which was a surprise for me. I was worried about both corners, but not about Carr now. Claiborne did play better against Denver (perfect throws can only be beaten by the WR dropping it). This is certainly a much better argument. However, I'm sure the thinking was that Claiborne and Carr could adjust. Carr has, Mo hasn't.

With that said, here's where I like the scheme. It is suited for bigger corners that are physical and can tackle. We've tried the 'athletic, but can't tackle cover corner' for the past 20 years and it hasn't worked outside of Newman's early years.

5. Rob Ryan was not a reasonable scapegoat but in fact had done a remarkable job considering the near total wipe-out of the defensive roster by injury. This season Ryan is doing a stunning job in turning a Saint defense that was 32nd in the league last year.

I can agree here. I think the organization was unhappy with how he handled the read-option and some other basic plays. I question if he had all of the players he wanted here.

6. Ryan is a very bright innovator and his players love going to war for him.

I've never heard an ex-Kiffin player ever say anything but glowing remarks about him.

7. Ryan had turned the light on for several players, including Lee, Hatcher and Carter.

I will agree with Hatcher and Carter. I think Lee got it on his own.

Bonus reason: When it fails...which I said it would...we'll be right back into yet another transition in 2014. This was just another massive miscalculation by Jerry Jones...the same GM who replaced epic Jimmy Johnson with buffoon Barry Switzer.

Well, it's not like Jimmy didn't mis-calculate either. He went to Miami and turned into a dead-fish HC because he couldn't kick Marino out of town. He then had the most embarrassing loss in playoff history. Meanwhile, Jerry did exactly what he said could be done...that anybody could win a Super Bowl with that team.

I think people are forgetting that this has been a HORRID pass defense since 2010 It was so bad in 2010 that it cost Wade his job midway thru the year, despite going 11-5 and winning a playoff game the year before.

2011 we brought in Ryan and it was so bad that we paid Carr $50 million and traded up to get Claiborne. Then it was awful in 2012.

There's something there that even Ryan couldn't fix and has turned Kiffin and Marinelli, both of whom have great track records in this league, into mush. I'm guessing it's part players and organization philosophy with accordance to the type of players we look at on defense.






YR

 

[Dale]

T-RO, I think all your questions are very well founded and remain unanswered.

To start with the positive, I do like the "swarming" mentality the new defense has brought, as you can see a very active approach taken toward creating turnovers. I also think they've gotten the absolute most out of what appeared to be a terrible defensive line, getting adequate to above average play out of guys like Selvie and Hayden in most games. I have found that quite surprising, especially with the injuries we've endured to what was already supposed to be a huge weakness.

With that said, the overall product has been highly, highly underwhelming. Lee looks like more a JAG than a Pro Bowl linebacker. Carter went from being a cornerstone to build around to being benched in Week 5. Our high-priced corners, as you said (and as Claiborne said on the radio), are playing in a scheme that doesn't suit them. Scandrick seems to be the one guy benefitting at that position.

There are still 11 weeks to make a conclusive assessment, but I agree with your overall premise: I didn't think Ryan deserved to be the scapegoat and I didn't think our personnel suited the 4-3.

 

[Ren]

It was never an issue that could be fixed by changing schemes, we suck talent wise.
Lee, Carr and Hatcher is what we have that can be considered good right now. Ware is so broken down that he's a non factor and everyone else just flat out sucks. No one is going to come inn and make this current group on D good