A few scouting tips for the New Year

couchscout

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I promised a few people I would explain a few basic scouting rules last week, so here ya go.


1. The number 1, by far and away most important, and by far away most ignored rule of scouting around here is: Do no tie your ego to your player evaluations.

Simply put, you're gonna be wrong, probably a lot. Many people cannot handle being wrong, they take it like a personal attack if someone proves them wrong. A quick example, when I was doing my off season evaluations last season, my initial eval of Roy Williams was...less than glowing. I wrote "Williams is a completely worthless player at WR, not only does he have no impact on the defense, but he drops the ball far too often for a starting WR." As the off season wore on, a few people around here said a few things that made me want to take another look. A few days later I was doing an eval of another player and I noticed something I had not caught on to previously. This caused me to go back and completely redo my Williams eval. I made a post on here a few days later about the impact Roy was having on defenses. I did not allow the fact that I had previously said he had no impact on defenses to cloud my judgement or reason. I was wrong, it happens.

2. You have to do every last thing possible to understand both the offensive play and defensive play call, and the assignments of all players on both teams before you can really eval even one player on one play.

This happens so often around here it actually makes me physically tired. Someone will hop on and start spouting off at the mouth about one play where a player appeared to get beat, and therefor that player sucks. When in reality that player was trying to cover a mistake a different player made, or was doing his assignment correctly but the offense had the perfect play call on to beat that type of defense, etc. Your average fan would have a hard time discerning a base cover 2, from a Tampa 2, or a simple cover 3 or cover 4. Your more hardcore fan who watches a lot of Playbook or NFL Matchup would be able to recognize most of those but would be stumped when asked to describe the responsibility of all 11 players on even a simple zone blitz. NFL defenses are extremely complex, sometimes it takes 6-10 views of one play over and over just to figure out exactly what the defense is trying to do. This is what makes "couch scouting" so difficult, you can only really evaluate 15 or so plays a game. Only the ones where they show the all22 camera, or show a half dozen replays of from a half dozen different cameras. So, next time you see Newman "get beat" on a 5 yard out route, or Doug Free just let his man run right past him to the QB, look at the rest of the play, 10 times if need be, and determine what exactly that players assignment was. Otherwise, for people in the know, you come off as a whiny kid.

3. The other team has good players too.

Another common mistake. "A. Johnson smoked Newman allll day, Newman sucks!!" Nevermind the fact that A. Johnson is an incredible player, that doesn't matter. What matters is that our CBs couldn't contain him one on one. You must understand that the NFL is full of extremely talented and athletic people. The other team is gonna have players that are better than your teams players, period. Sometimes the coach uses the old "let him get his" strategy. "We know we can't stop him one on one, and if we divert too much attention to him, his teammates will kill us. So let's just single him up, let him get what he's gonna get, and shut down everyone else." This actually happens a lot more than people think. When evaluating a player, keep in mind who he is facing. You can't have steak on every plate. /Mickey


4. Scheme is everything!

This one is more for evaluating players you'd like to bring on to the team than for evaluating current players. Every team has their schemes, some teams drop their DE's in coverage a lot, so they need more athletic guys. Some rely on the blitz to get pressure on the QB, so they need good blitzing LBs, some teams 2 gap, some 1 gap, etc. When you're watching a college football game trying to find players you'd like to see your team draft, or watching highlights of a player they just drafted. You must keep in mind differences in scheme. Bobby Carpenter is a great example of this. He was an attacking player in college. They never asked him to read and react, shed blocks and flow to the ball, or really anything a traditional LB does. He blitzed...a lot. They put him at DE on pass downs, if he happened to tackle the RB on the way to the QB, great. He came into the NFL on a team that asked their LBs to play the run first, to stack and shed, and play with outstanding discipline. He was not a fit here, and I believe it messed up his confidence. I still think he'd be a good player for the Eagles who would turn him loose at the QB the vast majority of the time. So this spring when you're watching highlights of every player under the sun, pay attention to his assignments, and what type of player he is. Just because he's a great player, doesn't mean he would fit with your team.



Real quick, just wanted to note that I don't think Newman is the best CB in the NFL or anything, he just happened to be the easiest example. Also, I should be around most of the day if anyone has any specific questions.
 
Do our scouts also look at our team? Practice, game, live and on tape?
 
Having said all of that, CoachScout, who do you like in the draft so far for the Cowboys, and who do you see as the blue-chip players who would fail here?
 
I have said for years now that fans focus on players as if they are on the field or an island by themselves. They see Newman get beat deep and they assume he blew the coverage when that play may have called for a safety to come over the top and take the receiver while Newman covers a zone area for underneath passes. Yet fans say, "Newman sucks!" because all they see is Newman stop and the receiver take off so they assume Newman screwed up. With the well known and discussed issues at safety this year, you would think people would remember and consider that when judging cornerback performance.

Like you, I am in no way saying Newman is great nor is he even as good as he used to be, but drawing a conclusion on performance without knowing the offensive play the other team called, the defensive scheme the Cowboys had called and the personnel match-ups on both sides of the ball, it really shows how little fans know.

-Reality
 
dogberry;3779856 said:
Do our scouts also look at our team? Practice, game, live and on tape?


Most teams have a college scouting staff, and a pro scouting staff. And yes, they evaluate not only our team, but all 32 teams. I honestly don't know if they watch practice film, that's probably more of a coaching thing. But you can bet every scout in the pro department watches every one of our games either live or on film.
 
JeffG;3779865 said:
Having said all of that, CoachScout, who do you like in the draft so far for the Cowboys, and who do you see as the blue-chip players who would fail here?


Defensively speaking, there is just no way to know until a DC is hired. And even then if we go with a first time guy, we won't know what type of defense he'll be running. So as far as that goes, I have no clue.

Offensively, I see what Garrett has done with Doug Free, he's drawn up some incredible plays utilizing Free's athleticism. I would think the Cowboys would be looking to get much more athletic on the OL. I haven't really started looking at college players yet, so I can't go in to names. But, for the first time under Jerry Jones that I can remember, you may see the us drafting OL for athleticism over size/strength. As far as WR's go, they really need a solid slot guy. A great route runner with quickness and reliable hands, right now they have far too many tall, straight line guys.
 
The hard part with college football is how do you match up a guy production, to his athletic ability and his competion he plays.
We seen way to often guys who where great in college do nothing in the Pro's then we seen guys that produced fell in the draft and be productive in the Pro's (In other wards what is the best way to match the combine skills to the production and vice versa)

How much do you take into account who coaches said player in the college ranks ? Is the player likely to be raw with a lot of upside vs he may have maximized his talents due to coaching at the college level.
 
Have you scouted before? I'm just curious. Excellent post, BTW.
 
Reality;3779881 said:
I have said for years now that fans focus on players as if they are on the field or an island by themselves. They see Newman get beat deep and they assume he blew the coverage when that play may have called for a safety to come over the top and take the receiver while Newman covers a zone area for underneath passes. Yet fans say, "Newman sucks!" because all they see is Newman stop and the receiver take off so they assume Newman screwed up. With the well known and discussed issues at safety this year, you would think people would remember and consider that when judging cornerback performance.

Like you, I am in no way saying Newman is great nor is he even as good as he used to be, but drawing a conclusion on performance without knowing the offensive play the other team called, the defensive scheme the Cowboys had called and the personnel match-ups on both sides of the ball, it really shows how little fans know.

-Reality

That's a good point, but how many times did we used to hear that argument in defense of Roy Williams 31? Until his last season in a Cowboys uniform people would point to all the times he was beat and say that he was really just stuck covering other people's mistakes and that he was still a top 3 safety. Yes, sometimes that is the case, but more often than not if your DB is trailing behind a WR and getting beat deep, it's probably because he just flat out got beat.
 
I'll cut to the chase, do our scouts have a way to know if our backup offensive linemen are any good.

Guys like Young, Costa, Parnell, Bright only get to show their line skills in practice (I guess).

thanks for your answers and patience

Kent
 
Kangaroo;3779907 said:
The hard part with college football is how do you match up a guy production, to his athletic ability and his competion he plays.
We seen way to often guys who where great in college do nothing in the Pro's then we seen guys that produced fell in the draft and be productive in the Pro's (In other wards what is the best way to match the combine skills to the production and vice versa)

How much do you take into account who coaches said player in the college ranks ? Is the player likely to be raw with a lot of upside vs he may have maximized his talents due to coaching at the college level.


Who coaches the player can have some impact in an eval, yes. Especially coaches who have coached in the NFL, it's likely those players will have the very least a base understanding of NFL schemes and concepts. Some college teams don't do a single thing that even resembles NFL schemes. Those players are by far the hardest to evaluate. WR's in general are hard to judge because very few college teams have their WR's run "pro routes". One rule I tend to stick to, if the player in question is always the fastest guy on the field and makes plays by simply running around everyone. STAY AWAY. Of course, you might strike gold with a player like that (Jacoby Ford, Devin Hester, Desean Jackson, Chris Johnson) but it seem highly more likely to me that you'll flat on your face (Ted Ginn, Troy Williamson, Chris Henry, Tye Hill, DeAngelo Hall, Kevin Jones, Matt Jones, etc.)

Personally, I'm a production over potential guy. Give me a guy who put up numbers everywhere he's ever been, over a super raw, athletic freak with the potential to be incredible. You have to have a couple of those guys to impact games, but for the most part I just want football players.
 
dogberry;3779927 said:
I'll cut to the chase, do our scouts have a way to know if our backup offensive linemen are any good.

Guys like Young, Costa, Parnell, Bright only get to show their line skills in practice (I guess).

thanks for your answers and patience

Kent


Of course they know...or at least they have their opinions. The thing you have to keep in mind is that their play time is strictly up to the coaches. Doesn't matter one bit what a scout thinks if the coach doesn't think he's ready. There is usually a lot of tension between coaching and scouting staffs.
 
Vintage;3779916 said:
Have you scouted before? I'm just curious. Excellent post, BTW.


I haven't scouted at the pro level, if that's what your asking. I'm an active coach, and do a lot of self scouting for the team. I'm a film junkie, and could spend my whole work day every day in a dark room with a coaches clicker in my hand....and have many times.

I've picked the brains of some very successful scouts (Gil Brandt for example) in the past, and most of the info I posted today was simply just passed on from those guys.
 
No matter how 'simple' things look on the surface, I've found that the more you drill down into how they work, the more complex they turn out to be.

Football, with all those moving parts, is incredibly complex. It's one of the things that makes it so interesting. Our household has just recently managed to hook a friend who had little interest in football. The strategy and tactics of the game really started to intrigue him, and he comes over most every sunday to watch now. And of course, he's converted to Cowboys fandom.

And to mention the classic example, I know a person who teaches basket weaving, and it's neither simple nor easy.
 
We need more threads like this.

Great stuff.
 
arglebargle;3779998 said:
No matter how 'simple' things look on the surface, I've found that the more you drill down into how they work, the more complex they turn out to be.

Football, with all those moving parts, is incredibly complex. It's one of the things that makes it so interesting. Our household has just recently managed to hook a friend who had little interest in football. The strategy and tactics of the game really started to intrigue him, and he comes over most every sunday to watch now. And of course, he's converted to Cowboys fandom.

And to mention the classic example, I know a person who teaches basket weaving, and it's neither simple nor easy.


So much truth here. I'm an egghead, with nowhere near the physicality, aggression, or violent nature to play this sport, especially defense. \I watch as much football as I can, not to see violent hits and displays of freakish athleticism, but to see the chess match between the coaches. I consistently predict upcoming play calls during games simply because I can see in real time, a lot of little things an average fan cannot. And I'm quite sure there are many people out there that can see more than me. The deeper you get into this great game, the more you realize you could dig your whole life and never reach the bottom. To borrow a quote from the NBA, "I love this game!"
 
couchscout;3779901 said:
Defensively speaking, there is just no way to know until a DC is hired. And even then if we go with a first time guy, we won't know what type of defense he'll be running. So as far as that goes, I have no clue.

Offensively, I see what Garrett has done with Doug Free, he's drawn up some incredible plays utilizing Free's athleticism. I would think the Cowboys would be looking to get much more athletic on the OL. I haven't really started looking at college players yet, so I can't go in to names. But, for the first time under Jerry Jones that I can remember, you may see the us drafting OL for athleticism over size/strength. As far as WR's go, they really need a solid slot guy. A great route runner with quickness and reliable hands, right now they have far too many tall, straight line guys.

Cool. Thanks, Coachscout!
 
couchscout;3779941 said:
Personally, I'm a production over potential guy. Give me a guy who put up numbers everywhere he's ever been, over a super raw, athletic freak with the potential to be incredible. You have to have a couple of those guys to impact games, but for the most part I just want football players.
This is one of the traps I sometimes fall into when making up my draft boards (putting potential in front of production). Thanks for the reminder and the thread.
 

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