Advantages of a 4 WR set

[waldoputty]

How quickly we forget..Dallas ran their version two or three years ago..It left at that level after Romo got killed in it. K?

romo got so bad that he breaks a bone if he got tackled.
having said that, having the threat of dak running does not mean dak runs a lot.

 

[Billyd]

I agree completely. OUR oline is the skill position on this team..Truely i think we have two tight ends that will grow this year..I really dont think a four receiver set will be much of a need.Think about this Gallup, Hurns/Thompson, Beas/Cedric, and Rico.

 

[Billyd]

romo got so bad that he breaks a bone if he got tackled.
having said that, having the threat of dak running does not mean dak runs a lot.

WHOEVER called that offense against philly in a 3/4 was stupid...Further any qb that got rolled like that would have been hurt...Im still trying to figure out why Free released a dend in the preseason at Romo, and why they let the bhole get away with slamming a qb starting a slide in preaeason..

You sir have lil class!

 

[Future]

The OPs proposal to use a 4 WR set as our base offense is what this thread is about. Maybe you were on a side discussion and missed that, if so, I apologize.

And I disagree with you on New England. Thier offense isn't predicated on teams having to respect the running game, and that in turn opens up the passing game. It's easily, and notably the other way around. Hell, most Patriot RBs are better receivers than runners. The offense is built to pass the ball, including a lot to the RBs.

The Patriots running game has averaged 3.9 yards per carry or less in 3 of the last 5 years, and is typically one of the least effective running teams. And that is not because opposing defenses are more concerned with stopping guys like James White and Deion Lewis from running the ball than they are with stopping Brady from passing all over the field,

A team's preference and what they actually do aren't always the same, and YPC isn't at all indicative of how a staff wants to run an offense. They get better matchups throwing it, so that's what they do. In 2013 with Blount, Ridley and Bolden, they were a smashmouth offense, because that's where they got better matchups.

I think you're confusing the fact that they use a short passing game to open things up vertically with a preference to pass. It's not true. The fact that they throw to RBs so much indicates they'd like to run, they just don't have the horses to do it, so they use short passing as an extension of the run game. They still run a TON of play action, and by splitting a RB out wide, they are moving a LBer to open up a passing lane, which is effectively a play action and predicated on the run. What they don't do, is just have Brady drop back and pass it 50 times a game.

At just a most basic level, Belichick runs an Erhardt-Perkins offense, which is predicated on "run to win, throw to score." The roots of that offense are ground and pound and though the offense today is very different than the original, it's still a run-first offense. The Patriots are just able to be extremely efficient with throwing as an extension of the run, because 12.

 

[OmerV]

A team's preference and what they actually do aren't always the same, and YPC isn't at all indicative of how a staff wants to run an offense. They get better matchups throwing it, so that's what they do. In 2013 with Blount, Ridley and Bolden, they were a smashmouth offense, because that's where they got better matchups.

I think you're confusing the fact that they use a short passing game to open things up vertically with a preference to pass. It's not true. The fact that they throw to RBs so much indicates they'd like to run, they just don't have the horses to do it, so they use short passing as an extension of the run game. They still run a TON of play action, and by splitting a RB out wide, they are moving a LBer to open up a passing lane, which is effectively a play action and predicated on the run. What they don't do, is just have Brady drop back and pass it 50 times a game.

At just a most basic level, Belichick runs an Erhardt-Perkins offense, which is predicated on "run to win, throw to score." The roots of that offense are ground and pound and though the offense today is very different than the original, it's still a run-first offense. The Patriots are just able to be extremely efficient with throwing as an extension of the run, because 12.

lol - only by your definition is a short pass classified as a run. The reality is a throw is a throw, and a short passing game is still a passing game. You can't define a run as a play where a QB drops back and throws the ball to a receiver, even if that receiver is only 5-10 yards downfield, or even if catches it at or behind the line of scrimmage.

And it doesn't matter that they pass because they like the matchups better by passing - that doesn't somehow make a pass a run. They pass because that's what they are successful at, and their offense is based on that.

Now, if you want to say they use the short passing game instead of running the ball, then sure, I agree with that. But again, it's still using the passing game rather than the running game.

That's not to say the Pats have a bad running game, they don't. But it's the perennial top 5 passing game that opens up the running game, not the perennial top 15-20 running game that opens up the passing game

As for 2013, while the Patriots had a better running game that year than usual, they still only ran the ball 43% of the time. They were not a run based team. And 2013 was just one year. The next year their rushing dropped by 17% and they won the Super Bowl (they didn't get to the SB in 2013). And they have never gotten back to the 2013 rushing level, so it's off base to suggest that year better defines the type of offense the Patriots run than the 4 years since 2013.

 

[dallasdave]

Excellent point

Prime Time

 

[dallasdave]

basically u r not familiar with it, so u call it fantasy.
here are some material for college and nfl use.

here is a really simple 10 formation rpo by utah: http://insidethepylon.com/pylon-u/t...ah-utes-are-succeeding-with-run-pass-options/
"the Utes show a gun left, trips left formation out of 10 personnel. The RPO here is a bubble screen to wide receiver Cory Butler-Byrd (#16) with an interior pin-pull run to running back Troy McCormick Jr. (#4). The RPO read for quarterback Troy Williams (#3) is made pre-snap, if the defense shows man coverage against the receivers, he hands it off to McCormick. If they show zone coverage, with the defender closest to covering Butler-Byrd shaded closer to the offensive line, then the QB should throw the bubble screen after a play fake to McCormick."
of course, they have other plays with 10 personnel.

for us, the rb could be zeke or austin. the player running the bubble screen could be zeke or austin.
the wr pairings could also execute rub routes or a wr (zeke or austin or thompson) can run a jet sweep.
there are many options that the defense must defend with little time to think.

college and nfl are different animals.
that is why more talent is needed in the nfl.
we are the best equipped team to do this as no one has a better rb, 4.3-speed webback, dominant zbs ol to do this.

here are the eagles rpo out of 10 formation : http://www.wcmf.com/articles/rpo-explained
"So what you see here is a brilliant set up from Alshon Jeffery. He almost takes himself out of the play, which is precisely what he wants Talib to think. The Eagles don’t block Miller and he becomes the “run” read. In this picture, Miller plays this play perfectly. He squats and because he’s so athletic, he can play both the running back and quarterback at the same time. But in an RPO concept – that’s ok.
Wentz pulls which is fine. He could have given it to the back because he had blockers, but Wentz understands numbers. He knows he only has to avoid Miller for a second or two because you can now see Jeffery begin to take off downfield. The problem is, Talib’s eyes are stuck in the backfield thinking he’s about to become a run defender if Miller can’t take care of Wentz alone. This is the giant window Wentz had to hit his very large receiver because Talib was caught flat-footed and had zero chance of recovering. The deep safety is thinking read option, so there’s no way he gets back in time to get over the top of Jeffery. What you see here is a play that just can’t be defended. "

rams similarities:
1. lots of motion like the jet sweep to force defense to show its hand
2. lots of rub routes - need multiple receivers to do that - and 4 wr allows rub routes to be run on both sides
3. almost as much rushing as passing
4. rpo
5. lots of playaction

Going to have to put you on Monday Night Football Putty

 

[dallasdave]

no butter or olive oil for any of them

Why the hate ?

 

[waldoputty]

Going to have to put you on Monday Night Football Putty

putty bothers to search for examples from colleges and nfl, and what does he get, no response to said examples

 

[dallasdave]

putty bothers to search for examples from colleges and nfl, and what does he get, no response to said examples

Putty you could go on TV

 

[Irvin88_4life]

that is right, and i think we are finally moving to the green bay type receivers that some of us have been clamoring for last season.
i think hurns had much better separation than dez did.
i remember seeing those stats here but have no idea where to dig it up.

personally, i think dez and witten were progress stopping dak.
dez was affecting his psychology of satisfying dez.
witten was this safety blanket that is not a big threat.

Dak is a very good QB and will only get better. I think him being able to find the open man and not rely or target a specific guy will go a long ways. Remember when Dez was out Daks rookie year?

Not bashing Dez or Witten but let's be honest it wasn't working. Nobody needs to be blamed, that's what I'm glad we got Hurns, Gallup and Wilson. Only thing I would have done different was keep Switzer. He would fit it nice with what we have now.

If we wanted Ward then I was ok trading a pick or maybe a different player and a pick to get him

 

[waldoputty]

Dak is a very good QB and will only get better. I think him being able to find the open man and not rely or target a specific guy will go a long ways. Remember when Dez was out Daks rookie year?

Not bashing Dez or Witten but let's be honest it wasn't working. Nobody needs to be blamed, that's what I'm glad we got Hurns, Gallup and Wilson. Only thing I would have done different was keep Switzer. He would fit it nice with what we have now.

If we wanted Ward then I was ok trading a pick or maybe a different player and a pick to get him

i think the new wrs' strengths simply match dak's strengths and weakness.

it is not really blaming anyone.
dez gave us many good years and witten should be a hof.
but age and injury have affected their play.

however dez's average separation distance, as i recall, was pretty bad.
and that is simply not what dak needs.
in fact, that may have screwed with dak's head and not helped matters.

witten is too much of a security blanket, and this may simply be a case that the new guys need to be given a chance to grow without the established guys running the show.
i think there are many case where that has happened before.

i dont miss switzer - his 4.5 speed is too slow for jet sweeps.
we need 4.3 players like thompson and austin for gadget plays.
also austin is much more of a homerun threat.
that would cause attention paid to zeke to be reduced.
a 2nd homerun hitter in the same offense is critical.

 

[dallasdave]

i think the new wrs' strengths simply match dak's strengths and weakness.

it is not really blaming anyone.
dez gave us many good years and witten should be a hof.
but age and injury have affected their play.

however dez's average separation distance, as i recall, was pretty bad.
and that is simply not what dak needs.
in fact, that may have screwed with dak's head and not helped matters.

witten is too much of a security blanket, and this may simply be a case that the new guys need to be given a chance to grow without the established guys running the show.
i think there are many case where that has happened before.

i dont miss switzer - his 4.5 speed is too slow for jet sweeps.
we need 4.3 players like thompson and austin for gadget plays.
also austin is much more of a homerun threat.
that would cause attention paid to zeke to be reduced.
a 2nd homerun hitter in the same offense is critical.

Wow --say all that backword

 

[Irvin88_4life]

i think the new wrs' strengths simply match dak's strengths and weakness.

it is not really blaming anyone.
dez gave us many good years and witten should be a hof.
but age and injury have affected their play.

however dez's average separation distance, as i recall, was pretty bad.
and that is simply not what dak needs.
in fact, that may have screwed with dak's head and not helped matters.

witten is too much of a security blanket, and this may simply be a case that the new guys need to be given a chance to grow without the established guys running the show.
i think there are many case where that has happened before.

i dont miss switzer - his 4.5 speed is too slow for jet sweeps.
we need 4.3 players like thompson and austin for gadget plays.
also austin is much more of a homerun threat.
that would cause attention paid to zeke to be reduced.
a 2nd homerun hitter in the same offense is critical.

I disagree about Switzer. He is much more then a gadget guy, I didn't think jet sweep wasnt a good play for him. He plays faster then 4.5 and can really catch, especially in the clutch plus run good routes. Excellent return guy. He was just a rookie and didn't get enough snaps to showcase what he can do.

Other than that I can agree with the rest of your points, no debate from me there.

I do feel like Austin and Thompson are better suited for the jet sweep over Switzer though.

 

[waldoputty]

I disagree about Switzer. He is much more then a gadget guy, I didn't think jet sweep wasnt a good play for him. He plays faster then 4.5 and can really catch, especially in the clutch plus run good routes. Excellent return guy. He was just a rookie and didn't get enough snaps to showcase what he can do.

Other than that I can agree with the rest of your points, no debate from me there.

I do feel like Austin and Thompson are better suited for the jet sweep over Switzer though.

ryan may well be a better receiver than austin though tavon had 50-60 catches per season in 15 and 16 under the old regime.
ryan 40 time was 4.51 in the combine
http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/ryan-switzer?id=2557960

there has been articles that stated gurley's ypc is much better with austin running the jet sweep than not.
"Gurley has gained 57 yards on seven carries when Austin comes in motion for a potential jet sweep. That's 8.1 yards per carry in those situations, compared with 3.3 yards per carry when Austin is not streaking through the backfield."
http://www.espn.com/blog/nfcwest/po...ecoy-sweeps-help-give-todd-gurley-room-to-run

dont ask me why rams let him go...

 

[Irvin88_4life]

ryan may well be a better receiver than austin though tavon had 50-60 catches per season in 15 and 16 under the old regime.
ryan 40 time was 4.51 in the combine
http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/ryan-switzer?id=2557960

there has been articles that stated gurley's ypc is much better with austin running the jet sweep than not.
"Gurley has gained 57 yards on seven carries when Austin comes in motion for a potential jet sweep. That's 8.1 yards per carry in those situations, compared with 3.3 yards per carry when Austin is not streaking through the backfield."
http://www.espn.com/blog/nfcwest/po...ecoy-sweeps-help-give-todd-gurley-room-to-run

dont ask me why rams let him go...

Only thing I can guess is injuries and fumbles. Austin can make plays and is a huge threat to take it to the house

 

[waldoputty]

Only thing I can guess is injuries and fumbles. Austin can make plays and is a huge threat to take it to the house

he was not a favorite of the new regime, which is quite competent.
yet the results seem to mean that he makes gurley do better even he fumbles punt returns...
we get a one-year trial

 

[dallasdave]

he was not a favorite of the new regime, which is quite competent.
yet the results seem to mean that he makes gurley do better even he fumbles punt returns...
we get a one-year trial

Dallas Dave is in charge of the new Regime

 

[Irvin88_4life]

he was not a favorite of the new regime, which is quite competent.
yet the results seem to mean that he makes gurley do better even he fumbles punt returns...
we get a one-year trial

Plus the Rams are paying almost half his salary. If he can have big returns and even score on some returns then that's huge. I could live with a few fumbles. Add in his threat on offense and keeping defenses honest will be icing on the cake.

Our defense was decent the past couple of years in the redzone. I know point wise we had some terrible games defensively but I feel this year they will take another step. Not that I want fumbles but for every fumble Austin can score 6 I can look over it somewhat

 

[waldoputty]

Dallas Dave is in charge of the new Regime

guess someone else coaches the cheerleaders...