Another draft hindsight debate thread but with a twist

[ThreeandOut]

Recently, the board has had separate threads revisiting the Zeke vs. Ramsey debate and the wisdom of the Jaylon Smith pick. However, draft selections seldom occur in isolation. The player selected in round 1 may influence who the team selects in Round 2, often by removing a player that plays the same position or on the same side of the ball. We've also seen in recent years the Cowboys look to maximize the overall value of their draft by identifying the depth at a position and taking the player at a position of less depth with the expectation that the player at a position of greater depth will be available later.

So I wanted to revisit the Zeke and Jaylon selections as a combination compared to some other options. The options are:

1. Zeke in Round 1, Jaylon in Round 2 (the Cowboys actual draft)
2. Ramsey in Round 1, Derrick Henry in Round 2 - which I think is what the Cowboys would have done if they had taken Ramsey instead of Zeke.
3. Ramsey in Round 1, Myles Jack in Round 2 (the Jacksonville option)
4. Zeke in Round 1, any other player from Round 2 in Round 2.

I do think option #2 would have been what the Cowboys would have done had the taken Ramsey first. As I recall, Henry had the highest grade on their draft board (other than the Smith and Jack who had injury concerns), but they would have never taken him after selecting Zeke. The Cowboys actual draft was much better than option #2. While Henry is a solid starter for Tennessee, he isn't the nearly as good as Jaylon and the drop off between Zeke and Henry is significant. Zeke and Ramsey are perennial Pro Bowl players, Jaylon has the potential to be a Pro Bowler as well. Henry is not in that same class.

Option #3 has been debated in the past, usually most arguing in Jacksonville's favor based on 2017. But in 2018, this argument has shifted to the Cowboys favor with the difference being in the 2nd round selections. Jaylon is showing this year to be the higher upside player going forward. Both players had injury concerns when they were drafted. Jaylon's injury now appears to be behind him. Jack's situation was viewed as a degenerative, long-term concern, which could still end up shorten his career.

For option #4, there were no defensive players taken in Round 2 that are better players than Jaylon. There was no player that would have impacted our defense in 2016 to help the Cowboys advance further in the playoffs. The only possible better 2nd round pick could have been Michael Thomas. He wouldn't have help our defense. But he might have helped us outscore opponents during the 2016 playoff run and is a player we could desperately use this year. But without Jaylon, we are probably still have issues at LB this year while Lee is out.

Hindsight is always 20/20. But overall I have no complaints about what the Cowboys did with their first two selections in 2016.

 

[Future]

I think you could probably add Ramsey and Jaylon, as options.

I don't really think Henry was really every going to be an option for the Cowboys at 34, regardless of where they went in the first. I have a hard time seeing them taking him over Jaylon, Telvin, Hunter Henry, Jihad Ward, or Austin Johnson. But who knows how much of that is just hindisght.

 

[bark]

Great thread topic.
It’s still early to know the ultimate outcome of all the players involved but as of now, the cowboys draft is looking better with the development of jaylon.

2016 doesn’t go as well as it did without zeke. Myles jack might have helped during that playoff run in 16. Smith looks to be the better option now.

 

[CouchCoach]

The Elliott v Ramsey debate will continue on but not for me. When I looked at the team and the most immediate need and impact, there was only one choice. Elliott was the most complete and NFL ready back for a team needing all 3, block, catch and run, skills that I had seen in many years. The QB was coming off an injury and needed that blocking back and receiver.

It was; however, the shorter term pick of the two players. On the Ramsey side is the advantage of, along with Lord Byron, the best CB tandem in the league and in today's NFL, that would be one hell of an advantage.

 

[ThreeandOut]

I think you could probably add Ramsey and Jaylon, as options.

I don't really think Henry was really every going to be an option for the Cowboys at 34, regardless of where they went in the first. I have a hard time seeing them taking him over Jaylon, Telvin, Hunter Henry, Jihad Ward, or Austin Johnson. But who knows how much of that is just hindisght.

Based on their leaked draft board, I think Henry was very much an option if they had taken Ramsey. There were actually a couple of DE's (Ogbah and Dodd) that they had rated lower than Henry that they reportedly would have taken if they hadn't been selected right before their 2nd round pick. I think Jaylon was really a fallback option that ideally they would have liked to have taken later in Round 2.

 

[mahoneybill]

Great to see Jaylon looking more like a true LB and not as limited as last year. Forget the fandom portion... A life changing accomplishment for someone who could have given up with the odds he was facing.

Also kudos to the Cowboys medical staff who look like they called his recovery correctly

 

[dckid]

The Elliott v Ramsey debate will continue on but not for me. When I looked at the team and the most immediate need and impact, there was only one choice. Elliott was the most complete and NFL ready back for a team needing all 3, block, catch and run, skills that I had seen in many years. The QB was coming off an injury and needed that blocking back and receiver.

It was; however, the shorter term pick of the two players. On the Ramsey side is the advantage of, along with Lord Byron, the best CB tandem in the league and in today's NFL, that would be one hell of an advantage.

I agree debate is over. Both teams chose what was best for them. I would have preferred Myles Jack and also drafting Jaylon Smith. Our doctors knew he would not play year 1 and we had the need at LB.
Myles Jack has been amazing so far in his career.
Having said all this, hindsight is 50/50 according to Steve Spurrier

 

[ThreeandOut]

The Elliott v Ramsey debate will continue on but not for me. When I looked at the team and the most immediate need and impact, there was only one choice. Elliott was the most complete and NFL ready back for a team needing all 3, block, catch and run, skills that I had seen in many years. The QB was coming off an injury and needed that blocking back and receiver.

It was; however, the shorter term pick of the two players. On the Ramsey side is the advantage of, along with Lord Byron, the best CB tandem in the league and in today's NFL, that would be one hell of an advantage.

Looking at it more from the perspective of the overall combination of picks in this tread but I agree with your thoughts. I think this was very much an Emmitt (Zeke) versus Deion (Ramsey) debate for the Cowboys and Emmitt won.

 

[Sydla]

I would have said Ramsey #1, Smith #2 and Jordan Howard #3 or #4 but Howard is kind of scuffling after two good years to start his career.

 

[QuincyCarterEra]

Ramsey and Jack then
Ramsey and Jack now

 

[CouchCoach]

The one argument for Ramsey that I do buy is that if a team is going to invest this much in an OL, do they really need an elite RB? The Cowboys have had this imbalance between the O and D with the cap and picks and added to that with Elliott but there is little choice considering the entertainment value of the offense and that combination of rookie QB and RB was unlike any we've seen.

 

[Future]

I would have said Ramsey #1, Smith #2 and Jordan Howard #3 or #4 but Howard is kind of scuffling after two good years to start his career.

Yea - there were a lot of good backs available later, that's the avenue I wanted to go. I think I preferred Paul Perkins in the 4th (woops), but Drake, Dixon, Booker, Collins and Howard all would have worked.

 

[QuincyCarterEra]

Yea - there were a lot of good backs available later, that's the avenue I wanted to go. I think I preferred Paul Perkins in the 4th (woops), but Drake, Dixon, Booker, Collins and Howard all would have worked.

Yep. I preferred Dixon

 

[Fastpitch Dad]

Very good topic and well thought out @ThreeandOut .

I know sometimes Zeke seems distracted, but I honestly thinks he gives you all he has on every play. Whether, running, catching, or the thankless job of pass protection. I really think that kids wants to win. He can come off as immature at times, but i believe he is an ultimate team player, which is indicative of his blocking skills.

I still believe me made the right choices on both, although @Future made an interesting view on Ramsey and Smith. Still love Zeke, but it would have been hard not to like those choices too.

 

[Teague31]

We got it right

 

[CowboyRoy]

Recently, the board has had separate threads revisiting the Zeke vs. Ramsey debate and the wisdom of the Jaylon Smith pick. However, draft selections seldom occur in isolation. The player selected in round 1 may influence who the team selects in Round 2, often by removing a player that plays the same position or on the same side of the ball. We've also seen in recent years the Cowboys look to maximize the overall value of their draft by identifying the depth at a position and taking the player at a position of less depth with the expectation that the player at a position of greater depth will be available later.

So I wanted to revisit the Zeke and Jaylon selections as a combination compared to some other options. The options are:

1. Zeke in Round 1, Jaylon in Round 2 (the Cowboys actual draft)
2. Ramsey in Round 1, Derrick Henry in Round 2 - which I think is what the Cowboys would have done if they had taken Ramsey instead of Zeke.
3. Ramsey in Round 1, Myles Jack in Round 2 (the Jacksonville option)
4. Zeke in Round 1, any other player from Round 2 in Round 2.

I do think option #2 would have been what the Cowboys would have done had the taken Ramsey first. As I recall, Henry had the highest grade on their draft board (other than the Smith and Jack who had injury concerns), but they would have never taken him after selecting Zeke. The Cowboys actual draft was much better than option #2. While Henry is a solid starter for Tennessee, he isn't the nearly as good as Jaylon and the drop off between Zeke and Henry is significant. Zeke and Ramsey are perennial Pro Bowl players, Jaylon has the potential to be a Pro Bowler as well. Henry is not in that same class.

Option #3 has been debated in the past, usually most arguing in Jacksonville's favor based on 2017. But in 2018, this argument has shifted to the Cowboys favor with the difference being in the 2nd round selections. Jaylon is showing this year to be the higher upside player going forward. Both players had injury concerns when they were drafted. Jaylon's injury now appears to be behind him. Jack's situation was viewed as a degenerative, long-term concern, which could still end up shorten his career.

For option #4, there were no defensive players taken in Round 2 that are better players than Jaylon. There was no player that would have impacted our defense in 2016 to help the Cowboys advance further in the playoffs. The only possible better 2nd round pick could have been Michael Thomas. He wouldn't have help our defense. But he might have helped us outscore opponents during the 2016 playoff run and is a player we could desperately use this year. But without Jaylon, we are probably still have issues at LB this year while Lee is out.

Hindsight is always 20/20. But overall I have no complaints about what the Cowboys did with their first two selections in 2016.

Yah I take Jaylon and Ramsey over any of your options. Two pro bowl players on defense right there at premium positions.

 

[LocimusPrime]

TJ Watt over taco

 

[ThreeandOut]

The one argument for Ramsey that I do buy is that if a team is going to invest this much in an OL, do they really need an elite RB? The Cowboys have had this imbalance between the O and D with the cap and picks and added to that with Elliott but there is little choice considering the entertainment value of the offense and that combination of rookie QB and RB was unlike any we've seen.

See I view it the opposite way. You make the investment in the OL pay off even more with the great RB like Emmitt running behind the great OL in the early nineties. Dallas was probably the one place where it made sense to take the great RB over the corner with a high draft pick.

Seeing that we took at took a pretty darn good CB (Jones) in the first round the year before, you also would have taken CB's back-to-back years in first round. We would probably now be wondering how we are going to pay both big dollar contracts.