Board Question, on defensive pass rushers
- Thread starter CCBoy
- Start date
CCBoy
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 53,028
- Reaction score
- 25,008
Ingram presents energy, plays and questions
by Bob Sturm
http://www.foxsportssouthwest.com/0...g_cowboys.html?blockID=701570&feedID=4679
Melvin Ingram South Carolina DE/OLB 6-foot-1, 264 lbs.
40 time: 4.71, Bench Press: 28
April 26, 1989 (23)
Two factions of football people can get awfully *****ly when it comes to discussions about draftees like Melvin Ingram. In one corner, you have the people that simply point to their stack of game tapes (as you will see below) and say that if those frames of tape don't tell you all you need to know about Ingram's play-making and dynamic athletic tools, then there is nothing else they can do to convince you. Then, there is another faction that says that nobody in football history made more plays at the college level than Vince Young, but it just didn't translate to the next level. Why? Because college football is a significantly different level and yes, even in a major conference, significantly inferior level of football. And therefore, we have things like the NFL Draft Combine to see how his tools stack up and how he projects at the next level where everything becomes more difficult.
And before you declare which side of the fence you are on, it is important to know that both sides have several exhibits of evidence that they can point to as "proof" that their side has it right.
One of the first things we look at when discussing a player is whether or not he excelled at the level he was at. And Melvin Ingram jumped off the screen in several games this season at South Carolina. The Gamecocks had a very impressive defense, with NFL prospects all over the place. Maybe the best of the bunch was just a freshman, but it might be time to know the name Jadeveon Clowney, because he is going to be special. Beyond that youngster, you have a few players in the secondary that are legit prospects in this draft, Stephon Gilmore and Antonio Allen. But, the buzz all year long has been about Ingram, who took several games over with his motor, his quickness, and his plays.
In 2010 and 2011, Ingram accounted for 45 explosive plays (sacks + tackles for loss) in 27 games. That rate is exactly where you want it to be for a guy who is claiming to be a game changer. And you can clearly close your eyes and see that he can be the part of a swarming, high-impact defense...
by Bob Sturm
http://www.foxsportssouthwest.com/0...g_cowboys.html?blockID=701570&feedID=4679
Melvin Ingram South Carolina DE/OLB 6-foot-1, 264 lbs.
40 time: 4.71, Bench Press: 28
April 26, 1989 (23)
Two factions of football people can get awfully *****ly when it comes to discussions about draftees like Melvin Ingram. In one corner, you have the people that simply point to their stack of game tapes (as you will see below) and say that if those frames of tape don't tell you all you need to know about Ingram's play-making and dynamic athletic tools, then there is nothing else they can do to convince you. Then, there is another faction that says that nobody in football history made more plays at the college level than Vince Young, but it just didn't translate to the next level. Why? Because college football is a significantly different level and yes, even in a major conference, significantly inferior level of football. And therefore, we have things like the NFL Draft Combine to see how his tools stack up and how he projects at the next level where everything becomes more difficult.
And before you declare which side of the fence you are on, it is important to know that both sides have several exhibits of evidence that they can point to as "proof" that their side has it right.
One of the first things we look at when discussing a player is whether or not he excelled at the level he was at. And Melvin Ingram jumped off the screen in several games this season at South Carolina. The Gamecocks had a very impressive defense, with NFL prospects all over the place. Maybe the best of the bunch was just a freshman, but it might be time to know the name Jadeveon Clowney, because he is going to be special. Beyond that youngster, you have a few players in the secondary that are legit prospects in this draft, Stephon Gilmore and Antonio Allen. But, the buzz all year long has been about Ingram, who took several games over with his motor, his quickness, and his plays.
In 2010 and 2011, Ingram accounted for 45 explosive plays (sacks + tackles for loss) in 27 games. That rate is exactly where you want it to be for a guy who is claiming to be a game changer. And you can clearly close your eyes and see that he can be the part of a swarming, high-impact defense...
Woods
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 12,460
- Reaction score
- 61
Wow, that's a tough choice.
For me it's between Ingram, Cox, and Mercilus.
I think I'd lean towards drafting Cox. That's mostly because I don't think our DL gets enough pressure/push. Other than Ratliff, there's no one else to account for on the DL.
Hatcher plays well in spurts, but he still hasn't put a full year together, imo. Spears' role is better as a guy to stack the LOS and play the run. I have hopes for Lissemore. I think he's active. But I'd like to keep using him and Hatcher in a rotation.
As for Coleman, I think that maybe Geathers with his experience can now push Coleman off the roster. In case Geathers can't, Cox definitely could.
I like Ingram as well, and I like his versatility. His short arms are a bit concerning. I don't know how he'd fare against NFL quality OL with 33 - 35 inch arm length.
As for Mercilus, I think he can also turn out to be a good player. I would be ok with any 3, though I have a preference for drafting Cox.
For me it's between Ingram, Cox, and Mercilus.
I think I'd lean towards drafting Cox. That's mostly because I don't think our DL gets enough pressure/push. Other than Ratliff, there's no one else to account for on the DL.
Hatcher plays well in spurts, but he still hasn't put a full year together, imo. Spears' role is better as a guy to stack the LOS and play the run. I have hopes for Lissemore. I think he's active. But I'd like to keep using him and Hatcher in a rotation.
As for Coleman, I think that maybe Geathers with his experience can now push Coleman off the roster. In case Geathers can't, Cox definitely could.
I like Ingram as well, and I like his versatility. His short arms are a bit concerning. I don't know how he'd fare against NFL quality OL with 33 - 35 inch arm length.
As for Mercilus, I think he can also turn out to be a good player. I would be ok with any 3, though I have a preference for drafting Cox.
CCBoy
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 53,028
- Reaction score
- 25,008
Coples has elite talent, questionable drive
by Bob Sturm
http://www.foxsportssouthwest.com/0..._cowboys.html?blockID=698488&feedID=10194
Quinton Coples North Carolina DE 6-foot-6, 284 lbs.
40 time: 4.71, Bench Press: 25
June 22, 1990 (21)
This is one of my favorite parts about preparing for the NFL Draft. Those who follow this closely grab a stack of games and try to trust their eyes and block out everything that has been said or written about a particular player who is being considered. Opinions this time of year can vary from constructive criticism to nit-picking to full-out-lies to increase or decrease draft stock, sometimes released by teams to attempt to get a guy to fall into their lap. Can you trust what you see out there? Or do you just watch the player and attempt to ignore the noise?
Quinton Coples is one of those players. People have said a number of things about him and the things that are said challenge whether he actually enjoys football and wants to be as good as he can be. Does his motor run? Does he care? What is most interesting about these critiques are the parallels between Coples and a player he greatly admires, Julius Peppers.
Peppers did not wear #90 at UNC. He actually wore #49, but has wore the number #90 ever since he has been in the NFL. Coples wears #90 at UNC and their frames are shockingly close. Peppers is 6-7, 287 and Coples is 6-6, 284. "Pep" ran a 4.68 and lifted 22 bench press reps. Coples ran a 4.71 and benched 25.
Peppers had seemingly no flaws coming out of college. He had 30.5 sacks in 3 seasons and 53 tackles for loss. It took Coples 4 seasons to put together 24 sacks and 40.5 tackles for loss.
Peppers was the #2 pick in the 2002 draft -- David Carr went #1 -- and has put up 100 sacks in 10 seasons. But, there was a time not too long ago (2007) when he was being asked by many in the media all of these same questions about motor and love for the game and "why aren't you better?" That was the year that Peppers looked disinterested and had just 2.5 sacks. Perhaps they were right, because the other 9 seasons, he has averaged about 11 sacks per season and has made football look easy his entire career...
by Bob Sturm
http://www.foxsportssouthwest.com/0..._cowboys.html?blockID=698488&feedID=10194
Quinton Coples North Carolina DE 6-foot-6, 284 lbs.
40 time: 4.71, Bench Press: 25
June 22, 1990 (21)
This is one of my favorite parts about preparing for the NFL Draft. Those who follow this closely grab a stack of games and try to trust their eyes and block out everything that has been said or written about a particular player who is being considered. Opinions this time of year can vary from constructive criticism to nit-picking to full-out-lies to increase or decrease draft stock, sometimes released by teams to attempt to get a guy to fall into their lap. Can you trust what you see out there? Or do you just watch the player and attempt to ignore the noise?
Quinton Coples is one of those players. People have said a number of things about him and the things that are said challenge whether he actually enjoys football and wants to be as good as he can be. Does his motor run? Does he care? What is most interesting about these critiques are the parallels between Coples and a player he greatly admires, Julius Peppers.
Peppers did not wear #90 at UNC. He actually wore #49, but has wore the number #90 ever since he has been in the NFL. Coples wears #90 at UNC and their frames are shockingly close. Peppers is 6-7, 287 and Coples is 6-6, 284. "Pep" ran a 4.68 and lifted 22 bench press reps. Coples ran a 4.71 and benched 25.
Peppers had seemingly no flaws coming out of college. He had 30.5 sacks in 3 seasons and 53 tackles for loss. It took Coples 4 seasons to put together 24 sacks and 40.5 tackles for loss.
Peppers was the #2 pick in the 2002 draft -- David Carr went #1 -- and has put up 100 sacks in 10 seasons. But, there was a time not too long ago (2007) when he was being asked by many in the media all of these same questions about motor and love for the game and "why aren't you better?" That was the year that Peppers looked disinterested and had just 2.5 sacks. Perhaps they were right, because the other 9 seasons, he has averaged about 11 sacks per season and has made football look easy his entire career...
CCBoy
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 53,028
- Reaction score
- 25,008
Cox could stabilize Cowboys defensive line
by Bob Sturm
http://www.foxsportssouthwest.com/0...g_cowboys.html?blockID=696972&feedID=3799
Fletcher Cox - Mississippi State DT/DE 6-foot-4, 298 lbs.
40 time: 4.81, Bench Press: 30 reps of 225 lbs.
Dec 13, 1990 (21 years old)
Our first profile as we ponder the best scenario at #14 when the Cowboys come up to make their selection might actually be the best option when we finish this series. Fletcher Cox appears to be exactly the type of player that has been missing from the Cowboys 3-4 scheme over the last several years.
Because of Dallas' reliance on the outside linebacker in the defense, and the luxury of having one of the elite pass rushers in this generation in DeMarcus Ware, they have felt almost no pressure to address the 2 defensive end positions with any level of urgency. Instead, it has been a constant parade of stop-gap types and part-time players. They are either plodding run stoppers who have no prayer of pass rushing or situational pass rushers who have no anchor in the run game. Instead of having anyone who approaches the 1,000 snaps of a full-time defensive end, they have had a series of 400 snap defensive ends. This, of course, requires more man-power and trouble as the Cowboys have needed essentially 4 defensive ends at all-times. But, not for the reasons the Giants use that many (rotational substitutions to simply wear out the opponent) but rather by necessity based on each down and distance they must substitute the proper DE into the game to keep from being caught with the wrong players on the field.
In the 2011 draft, the Cowboys had a chance to get an elite defensive end at the #9 spot with JJ Watt from Wisconsin -- a player that they were said to be quite taken with. But, they also had major weaknesses on the offensive line, and properly targeted young Tyron Smith as a solution to their long-term issues at tackle on the OL. It was a rare time where there was no wrong answer when they chose between Smith and Watt, because whoever they took was going to be a "blue chip" addition for years to come. But, whichever direction they went, the other spot was still going to be a glaring weakness.
And, after scrambling to make sure Marcus Spears and Jason Hatcher were re-signed, the Cowboys found stop gap DE Kenyon Coleman with young and promising Sean Lissemore to keep the position warm until there was a chance to bring in a young stud.
Well, perhaps, Cox is that man. Fletcher Cox was born on December 13, 1990. That was 24 hours after Tyron Smith was brought into this world on December 12, 1990. Smith was very young to be placed into the NFL as a raw but exciting 20-year old, and now it appears that there are similar ideas about Cox as a 21-year old draft prospect. Cox did not redshirt and is now turning pro after his 3rd year. He is still figuring things out....
by Bob Sturm
http://www.foxsportssouthwest.com/0...g_cowboys.html?blockID=696972&feedID=3799
Fletcher Cox - Mississippi State DT/DE 6-foot-4, 298 lbs.
40 time: 4.81, Bench Press: 30 reps of 225 lbs.
Dec 13, 1990 (21 years old)
Our first profile as we ponder the best scenario at #14 when the Cowboys come up to make their selection might actually be the best option when we finish this series. Fletcher Cox appears to be exactly the type of player that has been missing from the Cowboys 3-4 scheme over the last several years.
Because of Dallas' reliance on the outside linebacker in the defense, and the luxury of having one of the elite pass rushers in this generation in DeMarcus Ware, they have felt almost no pressure to address the 2 defensive end positions with any level of urgency. Instead, it has been a constant parade of stop-gap types and part-time players. They are either plodding run stoppers who have no prayer of pass rushing or situational pass rushers who have no anchor in the run game. Instead of having anyone who approaches the 1,000 snaps of a full-time defensive end, they have had a series of 400 snap defensive ends. This, of course, requires more man-power and trouble as the Cowboys have needed essentially 4 defensive ends at all-times. But, not for the reasons the Giants use that many (rotational substitutions to simply wear out the opponent) but rather by necessity based on each down and distance they must substitute the proper DE into the game to keep from being caught with the wrong players on the field.
In the 2011 draft, the Cowboys had a chance to get an elite defensive end at the #9 spot with JJ Watt from Wisconsin -- a player that they were said to be quite taken with. But, they also had major weaknesses on the offensive line, and properly targeted young Tyron Smith as a solution to their long-term issues at tackle on the OL. It was a rare time where there was no wrong answer when they chose between Smith and Watt, because whoever they took was going to be a "blue chip" addition for years to come. But, whichever direction they went, the other spot was still going to be a glaring weakness.
And, after scrambling to make sure Marcus Spears and Jason Hatcher were re-signed, the Cowboys found stop gap DE Kenyon Coleman with young and promising Sean Lissemore to keep the position warm until there was a chance to bring in a young stud.
Well, perhaps, Cox is that man. Fletcher Cox was born on December 13, 1990. That was 24 hours after Tyron Smith was brought into this world on December 12, 1990. Smith was very young to be placed into the NFL as a raw but exciting 20-year old, and now it appears that there are similar ideas about Cox as a 21-year old draft prospect. Cox did not redshirt and is now turning pro after his 3rd year. He is still figuring things out....
ABQcowboyJR
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 3,424
- Reaction score
- 494
I'm going with Coples just based on ability. After that give me Mercilus i guess. I'd rather look in the second and third rounds for one really. Curry or my 2012 draft pet cat Bequette.
cobra
Salty *******
- Messages
- 3,134
- Reaction score
- 0
Cox #1
Cox is the only one on that list that immediately improves our ability to get pressure. He would allow our DEs to get some penetration which would allows to get more over-all pressure. His ability to knife through the line would be very dangerous next to Ratliff. Those two would make a guard's life hell.
Coples #2
Coples would also play DE, I think, and he might be good at that too. But I just have reservations about the guy and his motor. I just feel Cox is safer, though I readily concede Coples might be special.
The only way we are improving our pressure now is to improve it at DE or at ILB. None of the OLBs would improve our pressure.
The three remaining are all probably OLBs. Of those three, Mercilus will get pressure, but I think he is suited to WOLB like Ware, and so he doesn't have a position from which to contribute right away. Ingram and Upshaw have some ability to get pressure, but they would both play SOLB, and neither of them would be any better at getting pressure than Spencer.
Cox is the only one on that list that immediately improves our ability to get pressure. He would allow our DEs to get some penetration which would allows to get more over-all pressure. His ability to knife through the line would be very dangerous next to Ratliff. Those two would make a guard's life hell.
Coples #2
Coples would also play DE, I think, and he might be good at that too. But I just have reservations about the guy and his motor. I just feel Cox is safer, though I readily concede Coples might be special.
The only way we are improving our pressure now is to improve it at DE or at ILB. None of the OLBs would improve our pressure.
The three remaining are all probably OLBs. Of those three, Mercilus will get pressure, but I think he is suited to WOLB like Ware, and so he doesn't have a position from which to contribute right away. Ingram and Upshaw have some ability to get pressure, but they would both play SOLB, and neither of them would be any better at getting pressure than Spencer.
CCBoy
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 53,028
- Reaction score
- 25,008
Approaching the topic of defensive tackle, this is what Bob Sturm commented:
I would buy that, Mike. But, I think Cox can be a perfect fit in Dallas against the run and pass as a DE in both their 3-4 fronts and the 4-3 fronts. He is a real athlete with great quickness and a wonderful motor. I really loved the fact that Mississippi based their entire defense around him and moved him around constantly. The opposition knew that they had to watch for Fletcher and find him in the presnap. And yet, he still rattled off big production and seemed to be a factor in most games. I am very impressed with his tape. I would say Brockers is a bigger load against the run so he will stand his ground, while Cox is more likely to squeeze through a gap and stop a run play in the backfield. Both strategies have value, but the difference between Cox and Brockers in the pass rush is enormous. Brockers advantage in the run game is not substantial to me, although they are asked to do different things.
....and then concluded:
With that in mind, I would build our board with the three names that have been studied so far like this: 1) Coples, 2) Cox, 3) Brockers
http://www.foxsportssouthwest.com/0...g_cowboys.html?blockID=699820&feedID=4679
I would buy that, Mike. But, I think Cox can be a perfect fit in Dallas against the run and pass as a DE in both their 3-4 fronts and the 4-3 fronts. He is a real athlete with great quickness and a wonderful motor. I really loved the fact that Mississippi based their entire defense around him and moved him around constantly. The opposition knew that they had to watch for Fletcher and find him in the presnap. And yet, he still rattled off big production and seemed to be a factor in most games. I am very impressed with his tape. I would say Brockers is a bigger load against the run so he will stand his ground, while Cox is more likely to squeeze through a gap and stop a run play in the backfield. Both strategies have value, but the difference between Cox and Brockers in the pass rush is enormous. Brockers advantage in the run game is not substantial to me, although they are asked to do different things.
....and then concluded:
With that in mind, I would build our board with the three names that have been studied so far like this: 1) Coples, 2) Cox, 3) Brockers
http://www.foxsportssouthwest.com/0...g_cowboys.html?blockID=699820&feedID=4679
sonnyboy
Benched
- Messages
- 7,357
- Reaction score
- 0
CCBoy;4493750 said:
We finished 7th in sacks and refending the run. Could we use another front seven player.....another pass rusher? Of course
Do we need it above and beyond the need for another interior OL and another S? No
If Decrastro isn't there at 14 and the team doesn't like or believe Barron is worthy of the 14th pick........I trade down.
Move the selctions up and or down to points in the draft where BPA fills the need of OL and S.
OMT I'm not so sure our need for another WR isn't ever bit as strong as our need for another front seven defender.
btcutter
Well-Known Member
- Messages
- 5,322
- Reaction score
- 2,605
Then, in 2011, with a new coach and a return to defensive end, his numbers dropped. He "merely" had 7.5 sacks and 15 tackles for loss and the football world was unimpressed. And that is what we do when preparing for the draft. We end up comparing players to generational greats in the NFL (Is he Julius Peppers?) or we compare him to what we think he should do (Why didn't he have 15 sacks this season?). But, if you just watch him play a few hundred snaps, you might see that in this draft class he is a cut above. If there was one guy that you would have to put money on to be a dominant pass rusher in the NFL, for me it is easy: Coples.
So, why did his numbers drop in his senior season? I might argue with his emerging as a force at UNC that he was focused on and game planned around much more. But, it is also not uncommon for players to not go 110% when they start reading about themselves on the NFL Draft board. Players often play their final college season with their head on a swivel, trying to make sure that nobody attempts to cut them at the knees and risk an injury that could take untold millions off the table. One player who had that rap last season of whether the motor always runs as high as it should was Von Miller. His sack totals dropped from 17.5 in his junior season to just 10 in his senior year. He also changed positions and the questions about this health or whether he was playing to not get hurt also emerged. And then Von Miller went to the NFL and blew the doors off with 11.5 sacks in his rookie season.
Coples body type is that classic basketball power forward frame. His athleticism is fantastic. And he over-matches his blocker on a regular basis with quickness and an array of moves that is tough to deal with. The fact that he "only" accounted for 48 explosive plays (sacks + tackles for loss) in his last two seasons is laughable. That ratio of over 2 explosive plays per game in a major conference is well above others in this draft class who are being considered for Round 1. If he did that while "not trying", then I think I can live with it.
So, why did his numbers drop in his senior season? I might argue with his emerging as a force at UNC that he was focused on and game planned around much more. But, it is also not uncommon for players to not go 110% when they start reading about themselves on the NFL Draft board. Players often play their final college season with their head on a swivel, trying to make sure that nobody attempts to cut them at the knees and risk an injury that could take untold millions off the table. One player who had that rap last season of whether the motor always runs as high as it should was Von Miller. His sack totals dropped from 17.5 in his junior season to just 10 in his senior year. He also changed positions and the questions about this health or whether he was playing to not get hurt also emerged. And then Von Miller went to the NFL and blew the doors off with 11.5 sacks in his rookie season.
Coples body type is that classic basketball power forward frame. His athleticism is fantastic. And he over-matches his blocker on a regular basis with quickness and an array of moves that is tough to deal with. The fact that he "only" accounted for 48 explosive plays (sacks + tackles for loss) in his last two seasons is laughable. That ratio of over 2 explosive plays per game in a major conference is well above others in this draft class who are being considered for Round 1. If he did that while "not trying", then I think I can live with it.
A whole trio of defensive line 'slippery rocks' opens things up outside, as well as MLB and secondary blitzes.
Members online
- StylisticS
- Hawkeye19
- slick325
- Tabascocat
- gimmesix
- CowboysLakerBamaFan
- coult44
- heir
- turbotool
- Joe71
- Reid1boys
- vuongloan
- BubbaGump
- beware_d-ware
- stumpfoot
- plasticman
- Pricedog
- DejectedFan1996
- ICP
- TWOK11
- EJK24
- PepsiJoe
- darthseinfeld
- ActualCowboysFan
- Beatledust
- nobody
- Tscandal1
- Diehardblues
- Woodrow
- Kevinicus
- moneytalks
- SoCalBoy
- JustChip
- DasTex
- randomdvv
- TheMarathonContinues
- Mattitude
- DarkVader33
- reggie3100
- Ddt1982
- Maverick84
- dcstar
- GINeric
- jesusdlg
- griffdog13
- lane
- 12+88=7
- Szczepanik
- BossRhino
- ssgunnip
- diamonddelts
- alicetooljam
- DallasCowboysRule!
- Asklesko
- krs1bro
- BenGran
- stiletto
- AmericasTeam81
- dagreat1_87
- darealvelle
- Hoods
- dogberry
- CATCH17
- onee
- noshame
- starz88
- Halfstonedcowboy
- dcyakker
- GORICO
- tripletsbestever
- zerofill
- CowboysRule
- Fizziksman
- pansophy
- Useful Idiot
- JustDezIt
- Ebnorice
- Starforever
- Stak78
- Angus12
- Bugsy12
- Killerinstinct
- Pentagruel
- mattsdad06
- Kareemovweet
- Biggy71
- DrHLecter
- mooseman
- ric
- Saosao
- davey999
- DemonBlood
- Renofan22
- Runwildboys
- TNCowboy
- Gambit
- LonnieElam
- Canadian BoyzFan
- rambo2
- couchscout
