Bob Hayes was screwed all along

[THUMPER]

In comparing HoF players, one of the knocks on Bob Hayes was that he wasn't named to many Pro-Bowls or AP teams during his career.

He was named to 3 Pro-Bowls in 1965, 66, & 67 and named All-Pro 1st team twice in 1966 & 1968.
For comparison's sake, Art Monk, Charlie Joiner, & Lynn Swann all have 1 AP1, & 3 PBs to their record yet they all went in ahead of Hayes who played before any of them. Just sayin' 'zall...

I wondered why Hayes was only named to 3 PBs in his career since he was a dominant player for more years than that so I looked into it and found that he was screwed out of 3 additional PB berths in 1968, 1970, & 1971 as players with lesser success/productivity were selected to those teams.

Compare his stats those seasons with a couple of the NFL/NFC WRs who were selected:

1968 (NFL):
Bob Hayes - 53 rec, 909 yds, 17.2 avg, 10 TDs
Carroll Dale - 42 rec, 818 yds, 19.5 avg, 8 TDs
Willie Richardson - 37 rec, 698 yds, 18.9 avg, 8 TDs
- Hayes had more catches for more yards and more TDs than either of the other 2 guys.

The other guys had a higher average per catch you say? OK then what about the next 2 years? Hayes led the league in avg per rec in 70 & 71. Oops.

1970 (NFC):
Bob Hayes - 34 rec, 889 yds, 26.1 avg, 10 TDs
Carroll Dale - 49 rec, 814 yds, 16.6 avg, 2 TDs
G. Washington(Min) - 44 rec, 702 yds, 16.0 avg 4 TDs
- Hayes averaged 10 yards per catch more than the other 2 guys and had a LOT more TDs so what was the excuse this time?

1971 (NFC):
Bob Hayes - 35 rec, 840 yds, 24.0 avg, 8 TDs
Rick Gordon - 43 rec, 610 yds, 14.2 avg, 5 TDs
Bob Grimm - 45 rec, 691 yds, 15.4 avg, 7 TDs
G. Washington(SF) - 46 rec, 884 yds, 19.2 avg, 4 TDs
- Hayes had fewer catches than any but more yards than all but Woosington but twice as many TDs as him. His average was much higher than any of them and only Grimm came close in TDs.

I left out the WRs that had better stats because they earned their spot on the PB roster but these guys didn't.

There were two WRs named Gene Washington back then and both were good players. One played for the Vikings and was a tough player, the other played for the 49ERs and is the guy who we see all the time now since he works for the League office. He was/is a pansy IMO and I couldn't/can't stand the guy, hence the name change to Jeannie Woosington.

I know this isn't going to change anyone's mind about things and Hayes is FINALLY getting his due and being inducted, but if he hadn't been dissed as a player then it would have removed one more BS excuse for the HoF selection committee to keep him out for all those years and he might have gotten in while he was still alive.

Back when Hayes played, the Pro-Bowl roster was decided by a vote taken by players and coaches. I don't know if the mediots got a vote as well but the fans didn't back then, so it was less of a popularity contest but was still open to bias.

 

[tyke1doe]

Is this your analysis or someone else's?

If yours, good job. If not, you need to attribute the source.

I wonder if any of the bias had to do with a track guy coming into the NFL and not being considered a "true" NFL player?

 

[superpunk]

Is this your analysis or someone else's?

If yours, good job. If not, you need to attribute the source.

This is how Hitler came into power.

 

[tyke1doe]

This is how Hitler came into power.

Huh?

 

[THUMPER]

Is this your analysis or someone else's?

If yours, good job. If not, you need to attribute the source.

I wonder if any of the bias had to do with a track guy coming into the NFL and not being considered a "true" NFL player?

It's mine, thanks.

As for the basis of the bias, you are probably close to it. I think it may have had to do with the perception that Hayes was a one-trick pony, he had speed but that was it, which of course was not the case.

 

[tyke1doe]

It's mine, thanks.

As for the basis of the bias, you are probably close to it. I think it may have had to do with the perception that Hayes was a one-trick pony, he had speed but that was it, which of course was not the case.

Thanks. Good analysis.

 

[big dog cowboy]

Great job Thumper!

 

[bbgun]

I'd be interested to know how many NFL receivers during that era (the 1960s) made it to the HOF. And also, how long it took them to get in. Correct me if I'm wrong, but for all of their dominance, I don't think Lombardi's Packers sent one wideout to the Hall. Let's face it: NFL offenses during that period in no way resembled the wild, wide-open AFL. So for Hayes to dominate in a "conservative, run-first, get mugged at the LOS" league, that's saying quite a lot.

http://img18.*************/img18/6255/84838301.jpg

 

[tyke1doe]

I'd be interested to know how many NFL receivers during that era (the 1960s) made it to the HOF. And also, how long it took them to get in. Correct me if I'm wrong, but for all of their dominance, I don't think Lombardi's Packers sent one wideout to the Hall. Let's face it: NFL offenses during that period in no way resembled the wild, wide-open AFL. So for Hayes to dominate in a "conservative, run-first, get mugged at the LOS" league, that's saying quite a lot.

http://img18.*************/img18/6255/84838301.jpg

True dat. 800/900 yards would be like 1,700 yards today. And look at his touchdown totals.

 

[THUMPER]

I'd be interested to know how many NFL receivers during that era (the 1960s) made it to the HOF. And also, how long it took them to get in. Correct me if I'm wrong, but for all of their dominance, I don't think Lombardi's Packers sent one wideout to the Hall. Let's face it: NFL offenses during that period in no way resembled the wild, wide-open AFL. So for Hayes to dominate in a "conservative, run-first, get mugged at the LOS" league, that's saying quite a lot.

Here's the list of WRs from the 60s that are in the HoF:

Raymond Berry 1955-67
Tommy McDonald 1957-68
Bobby Mitchell 1958-68
Don Maynard 1958-73
Lance Alworth 1962-72
Paul Warfield 1964-77
Charley Taylor 1964-77
Fred Biletnikoff 1965-78
Bob Hayes 1965-75

That's 9 players out of the 20 WRs currently in the HoF.

I have defined all outside receivers (WR, FL, SE) as WRs. I left out Ends (guys who played End prior to 1940 were not primarily receivers so I left them out) and TEs.

By contrast, there are only 4 receivers in the HoF from 1940-1955. 3 from the 70s, 3 from the 80s, and only Michael Irvin from the 90s. There is a lot of overlap so I guess you could consider a guy like Biletnikoff as a 70s player more than a 60s guy but he's really the only one.

The 60s were definitely the era of the great WRs. Who'da thunk it?

 

[bbgun]

Here's the list of WRs from the 60s that are in the HoF:

Raymond Berry 1955-67
Tommy McDonald 1957-68
Bobby Mitchell 1958-68
Don Maynard 1958-73
Lance Alworth 1962-72
Paul Warfield 1964-77
Charley Taylor 1964-77
Fred Biletnikoff 1965-78
Bob Hayes 1965-75

That's 9 players out of the 20 WRs currently in the HoF.

I have defined all outside receivers (WR, FL, SE) as WRs. I left out Ends (guys who played End prior to 1940 were not primarily receivers so I left them out) and TEs.

By contrast, there are only 4 receivers in the HoF from 1940-1955. 3 from the 70s, 3 from the 80s, and only Michael Irvin from the 90s. There is a lot of overlap so I guess you could consider a guy like Biletnikoff as a 70s player more than a 60s guy but he's really the only one.

The 60s were definitely the era of the great WRs. Who'da thunk it?

Thanks for the names. Of course, a few of those guys had their best years in the AFL, not the NFL, so maybe they should be omitted from any comparison to Hayes. And I think it took McDonald several years (decades?) to get into the Hall.

 

[BAT]

By contrast, there are only 4 receivers in the HoF from 1940-1955. 3 from the 70s, 3 from the 80s, and only Michael Irvin from the 90s. There is a lot of overlap so I guess you could consider a guy like Biletnikoff as a 70s player more than a 60s guy but he's really the only one.

The 60s were definitely the era of the great WRs. Who'da thunk it?

No doubt. But I think it will be surpassed by the 90's though, when Rice is inducted. That 90's class consists of Rice, Irvin, Tim Brown, Sterling Sharpe, Andre Reed, Chris Carter. With guys on the cusp like Andre Rison, Herman Moore, Haywood Jeffries. Then there were the overlap guys like Irving Fryar (80's), Randy Moss, Terrell Owens, Isaac Bruce, Jimmy Smith.


The guy who was in a class all by himself: Don Hutson 1940's


*wrote, not re-wrote, the record books that stood for 5 decades (and like Jim Brown, retired in his peak)

 

[DallasEast]

In comparing HoF players, one of the knocks on Bob Hayes was that he wasn't named to many Pro-Bowls or AP teams during his career.

He was named to 3 Pro-Bowls in 1965, 66, & 67 and named All-Pro 1st team twice in 1966 & 1968.
For comparison's sake, Art Monk, Charlie Joiner, & Lynn Swann all have 1 AP1, & 3 PBs to their record yet they all went in ahead of Hayes who played before any of them. Just sayin' 'zall...

I wondered why Hayes was only named to 3 PBs in his career since he was a dominant player for more years than that so I looked into it and found that he was screwed out of 3 additional PB berths in 1968, 1970, & 1971 as players with lesser success/productivity were selected to those teams.

Compare his stats those seasons with a couple of the NFL/NFC WRs who were selected:

1968 (NFL):
Bob Hayes - 53 rec, 909 yds, 17.2 avg, 10 TDs
Carroll Dale - 42 rec, 818 yds, 19.5 avg, 8 TDs
Willie Richardson - 37 rec, 698 yds, 18.9 avg, 8 TDs
- Hayes had more catches for more yards and more TDs than either of the other 2 guys.

The other guys had a higher average per catch you say? OK then what about the next 2 years? Hayes led the league in avg per rec in 70 & 71. Oops.

1970 (NFC):
Bob Hayes - 34 rec, 889 yds, 26.1 avg, 10 TDs
Carroll Dale - 49 rec, 814 yds, 16.6 avg, 2 TDs
G. Washington(Min) - 44 rec, 702 yds, 16.0 avg 4 TDs
- Hayes averaged 10 yards per catch more than the other 2 guys and had a LOT more TDs so what was the excuse this time?

1971 (NFC):
Bob Hayes - 35 rec, 840 yds, 24.0 avg, 8 TDs
Rick Gordon - 43 rec, 610 yds, 14.2 avg, 5 TDs
Bob Grimm - 45 rec, 691 yds, 15.4 avg, 7 TDs
G. Washington(SF) - 46 rec, 884 yds, 19.2 avg, 4 TDs
- Hayes had fewer catches than any but more yards than all but Woosington but twice as many TDs as him. His average was much higher than any of them and only Grimm came close in TDs.

I left out the WRs that had better stats because they earned their spot on the PB roster but these guys didn't.

There were two WRs named Gene Washington back then and both were good players. One played for the Vikings and was a tough player, the other played for the 49ERs and is the guy who we see all the time now since he works for the League office. He was/is a pansy IMO and I couldn't/can't stand the guy, hence the name change to Jeannie Woosington.

I know this isn't going to change anyone's mind about things and Hayes is FINALLY getting his due and being inducted, but if he hadn't been dissed as a player then it would have removed one more BS excuse for the HoF selection committee to keep him out for all those years and he might have gotten in while he was still alive.

Back when Hayes played, the Pro-Bowl roster was decided by a vote taken by players and coaches. I don't know if the mediots got a vote as well but the fans didn't back then, so it was less of a popularity contest but was still open to bias.

Great post, THUMPER.

Pro Bowl voting is equally divided three ways: a) coaches b) players c) fans. The media doesn't have any input in the matter, other than promoting it.

 

[THUMPER]

No doubt. But I think it will be surpassed by the 90's though, when Rice is inducted. That 90's class consists of Rice, Irvin, Tim Brown, Sterling Sharpe, Andre Reed, Chris Carter. With guys on the cusp like Andre Rison, Herman Moore, Haywood Jeffries. Then there were the overlap guys like Irving Fryar (80's), Randy Moss, Terrell Owens, Isaac Bruce, Jimmy Smith.

Definitely, once those guys are eligible there will be a lot of WRs from the 90s in the HoF. I was mostly surprised that there weren't more WRs from the 70s & 80s.

The guy who was in a class all by himself: Don Hutson 1940's

*wrote, not re-wrote, the record books that stood for 5 decades (and like Jim Brown, retired in his peak)

Absolutely, Hutson was a freak, a once in a lifetime player who completely defines the position. I rank him in the top-3 players all-time in terms of dominance (along with Jim Brown and Otto Graham). There just are not enough words to describe him as a player.

The only knock on him is that he amassed a lot of his stats during WWII when teams were short-handed due to the war but even though his stats went through the roof during that period, he was all-world before we entered the war.

 

[THUMPER]

Great post, THUMPER.

Pro Bowl voting is equally divided three ways: a) coaches b) players c) fans. The media doesn't have any input in the matter, other than promoting it.

That's true now but it wasn't then (50s-80s). The fans did not have a say/vote until the mid 90s when the internet was invented by Al Gore.

 

[BAT]

Those are my top 3 all time players too. Great minds think alike.

 

[THUMPER]

Thanks for the names. Of course, a few of those guys had their best years in the AFL, not the NFL, so maybe they should be omitted from any comparison to Hayes. And I think it took McDonald several years (decades?) to get into the Hall.

McDonald was inducted in 1998, 30 years after he retired.

Part of the agreement of the NFL/AFL merger was that the stats from the AFL would be considered as valid as those from the NFL (something that DIDN'T happen when the NFL absorbed the AAFC in 1950 GRRRR). Guys like Maynard an Alworth were great receivers but they played in a very pass-friendly league for most of their careers.

In the end it works the same way for QBs who played in a WCO which bumps their passer rating due to all of the short passes. (*cough* Joe *cough* Montana *cough* Steve *cough* Young *hack* cough*)

 

[burmafrd]

Yeah the WCO is a passer friendly one but lets face it Joe would have been a top QB without it. WHEN you can do what he did at the end of games you are a great QB no matter what. The QB rating formula needs a total overhaul since it was developed before the current pass happy pass friendly game.

 

[THUMPER]

Yeah the WCO is a passer friendly one but lets face it Joe would have been a top QB without it. WHEN you can do what he did at the end of games you are a great QB no matter what. The QB rating formula needs a total overhaul since it was developed before the current pass happy pass friendly game.

Both Montana and Young were great QBs but their stats are inflated by the system they played in.

 

[burmafrd]

And the stats for todays players are inflated by the pass happy rules. So what?