Bunting NFP Big Board Top 30

[ABQCOWBOY]

(not arguing with you, but just riffing off this comment...)

That may be true when all is said and done.

I'd never argue with that contention. The issue I was addressing earlier (and I know you aren't the one who made it) was the statement that RG3 has a higher ceiling or is in on par with Luck or is 1a or any other similar statements we are seeing a lot of these days. Part of it is because he is the flavor of the month.

But saying he is no where near as good as Luck does not preclude the fact that he might also be a top 5 player as you suggested.

In other words, the talent gap could like this:

1. Luck
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
2. Kalil
3. Claiborne
4. Blackmon or Richardson
5. RG3


I don't know where the top 5 will end up. But I think we do know that Luck is an automatic, no questions asked #1 and there is a drop off after that.

RG3's greatest strength is also his greatest weakness: his ability to run. There is a reason why the Super Bowl winners and best QBs are all pure pocket passers (e.g., Rogers, Brady, Brees, etc.) Because these guys are not great runners or standout athletes they have been trained and forced to know how to read a defense, move in the pocket and allow the play to develop to find the open WRs. Great athlete and dual threat QBs like RG3 never develop that skill because they are always thinking about running or are told to take off if the play isn't there. And no matter how much RG3 wants to become a pure pocket passer, he'll always be told by his coaches or fans or that nagging voice in the back of his head "if it is not there, take off!" He can have a great career being that. But he won't be among the best QBs and he won't be a SB winner. You have have a pure pocket passer QB to win at the SB level. It has to be someone who has the stones to hang in the pocket when the pressure is greatest and find the WR and when a QB is always thinking about taking off running, they will never get to that level.

All fair analysis with the exception, I think, of the statement on upside. IMO, RG3 has more upside then any QB in this draft. However, upside is just another word for potential and RG3 may or may not reach that full potential so the question of upside is a gamble. It does not guarantee success but I don't believe that there is any question, RG3 has more upside then does Luck. I would still take Luck though and I would never look back.

 

[burmafrd]

All fair analysis with the exception, I think, of the statement on upside. IMO, RG3 has more upside then any QB in this draft. However, upside is just another word for potential and RG3 may or may not reach that full potential so the question of upside is a gamble. It does not guarantee success but I don't believe that there is any question, RG3 has more upside then does Luck. I would still take Luck though and I would never look back.

potential as a QB? How can you possibly say that? has he shown anything like what has shown as regards being an NFL type QB?

 

[Doomsday101]

I like both Luck and RGIII. If I had to make a pick I go with Luck. I do think RGIII will see success earlier on than Luck and I say that because when things break down RGIII does have the athletic ability to make things happen.

Luck being more of the pocket passer I think it will take time to adjust to the speed of the game and the heavy pressure he will face in the Pro.

In the long run though I think Luck will prove to be the better QB

 

[jblaze2004]

Falling? He's #8. That seems high to me. The people who have been calling RG3 on par with Luck are the ones who are smoking crack.

RG3 is not being drafted to play a gimmick spread offense in the Big 12. He'll be drafting to run an NFL offense in the NFL--something that we have no evidence to show he will be successful.

RG3's negatives:

• Too small/slight
• No experience in calling own plays
• No experience in pro style offense
• Very little experience under center
• Too willing to run when first options are not there

His positives:

• Elite athleticism
• Productive
• Can run
• Has all the arm you need
• Good kid

The NFL is and always has been a pocket passer league. Brees, Brady and Rogers is what the NFL wants. Sure, the Cam Newtons and Tebows make things interesting, but that is not what wins championships. It's the pocket passers.


RG3 will have highlight games and make crazy plays, but he is too slight to keep it up and will be broken in this league. And he will break hearts too teasing fans with potential.

almost sound like the bust cam newton (other than the size part) .....oh wait

do everyone remember all the negatives we heard about cam newton. Well he broke alot of records for being a bust:laugh2:

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

potential as a QB? How can you possibly say that? has he shown anything like what has shown as regards being an NFL type QB?

He is the most athletically gifted QB in the draft. Of that, there is no question. That is how.

 

[jblaze2004]

it would be funny if luck become leaf but i doubt it but boy would it be funny.

 

[cobra]

Well he broke alot of records for being a bust:laugh2:

Yeah, because putting up the rookie QB rushing TD record is imperative to be successful in the NFL, right?

As of now, Cam Newton has done jack crap. He isn't a bust, and he can improve, but he is nothing at this point. We can start using Cam Newton as something to be emulated when he actually gets his team deep in the playoffs.

Look at NFL history. If what you are looking for in an NFL QB is one who can put up impressive individual performances, be a dual threat, and show of personal athleticism, then great. You do that. Have fun always falling short each season. That's what NFL history proves unquestionably.

Me? I'll take the pure pocket passer who learns to rely on his ability to read the defense and wait until a WR gets open instead of taking off running. That would be Brady, Brees and Rogers. And I'll be winning Super Bowls while you enjoy your highlight reels in January.

RG3 would be an improvement at QB for maybe 10 teams in the NFL. He should be drafted early. But as a prospect for a team that wants to win Super Bowls, there is no doubt that Luck is a far superior prospect because he projects to be the type of franchise QB that can win Super Bowls--not set rushing TD records.

 

[cbow44]

Yeah, because putting up the rookie QB rushing TD record is imperative to be successful in the NFL, right?

As of now, Cam Newton has done jack crap. He isn't a bust, and he can improve, but he is nothing at this point. We can start using Cam Newton as something to be emulated when he actually gets his team deep in the playoffs.

Look at NFL history. If what you are looking for in an NFL QB is one who can put up impressive individual performances, be a dual threat, and show of personal athleticism, then great. You do that. Have fun always falling short each season. That's what NFL history proves unquestionably.

Me? I'll take the pure pocket passer who learns to rely on his ability to read the defense and wait until a WR gets open instead of taking off running. That would be Brady, Brees and Rogers. And I'll be winning Super Bowls while you enjoy your highlight reels in January.

RG3 would be an improvement at QB for maybe 10 teams in the NFL. He should be drafted early. But as a prospect for a team that wants to win Super Bowls, there is no doubt that Luck is a far superior prospect because he projects to be the type of franchise QB that can win Super Bowls--not set rushing TD records.

Are you saying if you were starting a team right now, you would take Sam Bradford over Cam Newton. Pure pocket passer and all that

 

[RS12]

Yeah, because putting up the rookie QB rushing TD record is imperative to be successful in the NFL, right?

As of now, Cam Newton has done jack crap. He isn't a bust, and he can improve, but he is nothing at this point. We can start using Cam Newton as something to be emulated when he actually gets his team deep in the playoffs.

Look at NFL history. If what you are looking for in an NFL QB is one who can put up impressive individual performances, be a dual threat, and show of personal athleticism, then great. You do that. Have fun always falling short each season. That's what NFL history proves unquestionably.

Me? I'll take the pure pocket passer who learns to rely on his ability to read the defense and wait until a WR gets open instead of taking off running. That would be Brady, Brees and Rogers. And I'll be winning Super Bowls while you enjoy your highlight reels in January.

RG3 would be an improvement at QB for maybe 10 teams in the NFL. He should be drafted early. But as a prospect for a team that wants to win Super Bowls, there is no doubt that Luck is a far superior prospect because he projects to be the type of franchise QB that can win Super Bowls--not set rushing TD records.

I think Newton is already far better than 95% (me included) thought he would ever be. The guy can play.

 

[SkinsHokieFan]

I don't think we'll see a rookie season like Cam Newton had (passing) for a very very long time. His skill set is elite and who knew the guy could actually study and learn an offense.

Luck is the real deal. No question about that at all. The knock on him will be he spent 3 years in a fantastic scheme with a virtual NFL o-line and an elite running game. Josh Johnson put up great numbers in the Harbaugh offense also. These will be thoughts talked about over the next few months.

Personally I am still very high on him and see him being a year in year out pro bowler. The value in him is the safety in the pick, you won't have a Brady Quinn like bust with him.

RG3 has a very high ceiling. Elite arm great deep ball and incredible play making ability. He hasn't had nearly the offensive line nor the support system at Baylor. However he never takes a snap under center and does not read a defense like Luck does. He isn't as "pro ready" as Andrew Luck. Its evident on film as he quickly goes through reads and then takes off.

Just my thought, you will do fantastic with either QB if you build a scheme that maximizes them. If you keep RG3 strictly in the pocket and try and mold him into Tom Brady, you'll fail. You need to do what Rob Chudinzki did with Newton and not be afraid to throw in a read option element into your offense, move him around and take advantage of his play making ability.

With Luck I think it is imperative you put him in a scheme which has balance and a strong enough run presence. We haven't seen him face a heavy pass rush, we are still not sure how he'll respond to adverse conditions and playing behind a line with less then 2 first round picks.

If you get either of them, 5 years from now you'll be very happy. I'd rather take Luck myself, but RG3 will be an elite QB as well.

 

[cobra]

Are you saying if you were starting a team right now, you would take Sam Bradford over Cam Newton. Pure pocket passer and all that

I am saying that right now I would take untested Luck over semi-proven Cam Newton.

It's not fair to ask me whether I would take a QB I don't like Sam Bradford over Newton. That's not getting down to the issue. Isolate the variables.

The issue is this: do you want a top end pocket passer or a top end dual threat QB? The issue is not "do you want a top end dual threat or a middle of the road pocket passer".

The answer will be for me "give me the pocket passer" because that QB has what it takes to win the Super Bowl. They develop the skills to stay and stand tall in the pocket and wait for plays to develop, they never think about running--they look for the play downfield. Dual threat QBs will always be coached to and encouraged to take off running the second the pressure is there, so they are never forced to learn the passing skills at the level the pocket passers do.

So I will always take the pocket passers because history has proven without any doubt and any ability to argue against it pocket passers win Super Bowls, not dual threat QBs.

As soon as Cam Newton or Tim Tebow wins the Super Bowl, we can revisit this discussion. Until then, you can have the impressive personal performances and flashy plays of the dual threat QBs and enjoy your constant chase of a wildcard and early playoff exit.

 

[cobra]

I think Newton is already far better than 95% (me included) thought he would ever be. The guy can play.

The guy can put up some numbers and make some impressive personal plays. Never said otherwise. This is about winning Super Bowls, though.

If he is able to carry his team to a SB, then we can talk about whether he is elite

 

[cobra]

If you get either of them, 5 years from now you'll be very happy. I'd rather take Luck myself, but RG3 will be an elite QB as well.

RG3 will not be elite. He'll be good and will have some impressive personal performances. But he will not be elite (top 5).

And he'll certainly be crappy if he goes to your doormat franchise.

But keeping trying to make yourself feel good about getting the consolation prize Griffin.

 

[cbow44]

I am saying that right now I would take untested Luck over semi-proven Cam Newton.

It's not fair to ask me whether I would take a QB I don't like Sam Bradford over Newton. That's not getting down to the issue. Isolate the variables.

The issue is this: do you want a top end pocket passer or a top end dual threat QB? The issue is not "do you want a top end dual threat or a middle of the road pocket passer".

The answer will be for me "give me the pocket passer" because that QB has what it takes to win the Super Bowl. They develop the skills to stay and stand tall in the pocket and wait for plays to develop, they never think about running--they look for the play downfield. Dual threat QBs will always be coached to and encouraged to take off running the second the pressure is there, so they are never forced to learn the passing skills at the level the pocket passers do.

So I will always take the pocket passers because history has proven without any doubt and any ability to argue against it pocket passers win Super Bowls, not dual threat QBs.

As soon as Cam Newton or Tim Tebow wins the Super Bowl, we can revisit this discussion. Until then, you can have the impressive personal performances and flashy plays of the dual threat QBs and enjoy your constant chase of a wildcard and early playoff exit.

I get it' you will only take the best QB prospect since Manning over Cam Newton. I agree with you Cam Newton is darn good.

 

[TheCount]

RG3 will not be elite. He'll be good and will have some impressive personal performances. But he will not be elite (top 5).

And he'll certainly be crappy if he goes to your doormat franchise.

But keeping trying to make yourself feel good about getting the consolation prize Griffin.

I don't see how anyone can know who will and will not be elite before they've thrown a single NFL pass.

Then again, I can't figure out why a Skin fans is on a Cowboy forum, much less discussing the draft on a Cowboy forum, so maybe I'm just slow.

 

[SkinsHokieFan]

I don't see how anyone can know who will and will not be elite before they've thrown a single NFL pass.

Then again, I can't figure out why a Skin fans is on a Cowboy forum, much less discussing the draft on a Cowboy forum, so maybe I'm just slow.

RG3 and Luck aren't Cowboy/Commander issues. Its more of a "football" issue and this is as good of a place to talk about these 2 QBs as any.

If RG3 ran was only as athletic as Andrew Luck is, he would still be a projected top 10 pick and still the 2nd QB off the board. His legs aren't the reason he is so high up.

His passing skill set is that elite (release, accuracy, arm strength)

What Andrew Luck has is much better foot work and incredible ability with what he does between the snap and throwing the ball.

Release, accuracy and arm strength wise they are very similar, with RG3 having an advantage in arm strength (which is no knock on Andrew Luck, his arm is just fine)

Its also nice that Wes Bunting did an excellent write up on Luck vs RG3

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Robert-Griffin-III-vs-Andrew-Luck.html&page=2

Overall, I stated back in September after I saw RGIII vs. TCU, that if this guy can play at a high level all season, he’s got the kind of talent to be the one quarterback that actually makes NFL teams think twice about Stanford quarterback Andrew Luck. Griffin possesses the athletic skill set to consistently create second lives for himself both inside and outside the pocket, he looks natural when asked to improvise if plays breakdown and can really hurt you with his ability to make plays down the field. Now, there are still some raw spots to his game.


However, he’s a worker from a top-tier family who wants to be great and when you add together his physical skill set and his clean character on/off the field, I feel confident giving this guy a higher grade than any quarterback from the 2011 NFL draft class.

With that being said, Luck really is a rare prospect at the position. He’s a “plus” in just about every category you evaluate a quarterback in outside of arm strength, but has the frame to get stronger and I don’t think arm strength will ever be a real concern for him at the next level. He’s a bright kid both on and off the field who deciphers information quickly. Is comfortable on the move, finds secondary targets while working his way across the field and is one of the few college quarterback prospects to come along with experience calling plays at the line and getting his team in and out of formations pre snap.

When you look at his physical capabilities and add them to his mental skill set, you have a guy who is as close to a can’t miss at the position as possible. And in my estimation looks like a future pro bowl guy who can be that franchise signal caller long term.

Therefore, as much as I like RGIII, it’s nearly impossible for me to pick any prospect over Luck in this year’s draft.

 

[RS12]

RG3 and Luck aren't Cowboy/Commander issues. Its more of a "football" issue.

If RG3 ran was only as athletic as Andrew Luck is, he would still be a projected top 10 pick and still the 2nd QB off the board. His legs aren't the reason he is so high up.

His passing skill set is that elite (release, accuracy, arm strength)

What Andrew Luck has is much better foot work and incredible ability with what he does between the snap and throwing the ball.

Release, accuracy and arm strength wise they are very similar, with RG3 having an advantage in arm strength (which is no knock on Andrew Luck, his arm is just fine)

:laugh1: At your sig. Hope it doesnt happen though.

 

[TheCount]

RG3 and Luck aren't Cowboy/Commander issues. Its more of a "football" issue and this is as good of a place to talk about these 2 QBs as any.

If RG3 ran was only as athletic as Andrew Luck is, he would still be a projected top 10 pick and still the 2nd QB off the board. His legs aren't the reason he is so high up.

His passing skill set is that elite (release, accuracy, arm strength)

You don't have to tell me that. I've been a fan of RGIII for some time, way before his stock skyrocketed.

I wanted him on the Cowboys, but he'll be off the board by then. If he was, by some freak accident, still available at 14, I'd take him even before I'd take a lineman.

 

[tm1119]

Aside from this whole RG3 argument, just about his whole top 30 is horrendous. Hope this guy isnt getting paid to do that.

 

[cbow44]

Aside from this whole RG3 argument, just about his whole top 30 is horrendous. Hope this guy isnt getting paid to do that.

Folks say that every year about this time. Come draft time he is usually darn close.