Can we even fix the O-line in one off-season?
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CowboyManDan
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Keep Al Johnson - He's young and has possible improvement ahead of him. Give him at least one more year.
Ditch Marco Rivera - He's older, recently injured pretty badly, and doesn't have time in front of him to get better, his best might be behind him. Plus he costs alot.
Ditch Marco Rivera - He's older, recently injured pretty badly, and doesn't have time in front of him to get better, his best might be behind him. Plus he costs alot.
Eskimo
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CowboyManDan said:
I'd give Al J another year as well as he was really only in his sophomore year last year.
As for Rivera, he got a gargantuan bonus of $9M last year and relatively small salaries of about $2M/year. We have to hope he recovers his pre-injury form because he is too expensive to dump at this point and you are unlikely going to find a better replacement for $2M/year in the FA market. We would be in more of a position to make such a move if Gurode or Peterman had come on strong during the year but as is we are stuck at this position.
speedkilz88
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I don't think Larry fits the scheme anymore, Parcells would like to be more like that Denver scheme and a power guard like LA just can't fit that scheme anymore.Hostile said:
burmafrd
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Johnson played all of 04 and 05. Has had 3 training camps. He will not get any stronger or bigger. Does not look like he is improving his technique- since by universal agreement he was pushed around this year. There is no more upside to him- more experience will help A LITTLE but not much. With more and more teams going to the 3-4 he will be facing more and more massive NT's like the ones that abused him this year. So we need a center that is either bigger and stronger or has much better technique. That means Bentley or the like. There are no centers in the draft that could immediately improve on Johnson- Mangold is bigger and stronger but would be a rookie. So it is doubtfull that he could do as well as Johnson right away.
Rivera had a lot of little injuries this year including his back trouble. FROM ALL accounts the man has a lot of pride and will give everything he has got left to prove that the money spent was not wasted. So we give him this coming year.
LA needs to get some weight off or something to get some quickness. Whether that can happen is another story. Peterman has shown nothing so
frankly I would get Gilles. I love LA but unless he can do somewhat better he needs to go.
Columbo is still an unknown as regards to his rehab and how far and how fast he can come back.
Pettiti had that bad ankle which slowed him down more then he already was. With an offseason to heal and get his strength back after losing all that weight he should be better next season. BUT we need to get quality depth and Tucker sure ain't it. So we need to get a tackle in FA. One that is good enoug to be better then Pettiti was this year so if Pettiti does not improve we still are better at RT.
So if we get a Center and Tackle in FA and get Gilles in the draft our line should be good enough to get the job done; and maybe better then that.
I honestly would look at seeing if we could trade Johnson to a team that like s quicker linemen like Denver.
Rivera had a lot of little injuries this year including his back trouble. FROM ALL accounts the man has a lot of pride and will give everything he has got left to prove that the money spent was not wasted. So we give him this coming year.
LA needs to get some weight off or something to get some quickness. Whether that can happen is another story. Peterman has shown nothing so
frankly I would get Gilles. I love LA but unless he can do somewhat better he needs to go.
Columbo is still an unknown as regards to his rehab and how far and how fast he can come back.
Pettiti had that bad ankle which slowed him down more then he already was. With an offseason to heal and get his strength back after losing all that weight he should be better next season. BUT we need to get quality depth and Tucker sure ain't it. So we need to get a tackle in FA. One that is good enoug to be better then Pettiti was this year so if Pettiti does not improve we still are better at RT.
So if we get a Center and Tackle in FA and get Gilles in the draft our line should be good enough to get the job done; and maybe better then that.
I honestly would look at seeing if we could trade Johnson to a team that like s quicker linemen like Denver.
Cbz40
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Hostile said:
Hos you made a good point in your previous post.....the scheme.
The 70's & 80's we had the perfect OL for Tony D...they were athletic, good speed, could pull, and could get outside and block.
The 90's OL were maulers....perfect OL for Emmitt.
The present OL maulers do not gel w/JJ at all........not quick enough to help JJ get outside or not strong enough to open a hole up the middle.
Either change the scheme, RB, or the makeup of the OL.
Hey I got it.....change the Offensive scheme to fit our talent.
How about putting a plan together and sticking to it.
Clove
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noshame said:First off, we need to know what guys are coming back. Is it the "solid/disciplined/pro bowl" Flo of a couple years ago? Is it the give at least 75-100% LA? Is it the above average G we signed in Rivera?
Or
Is it "false start Flo".
I can't get off on the ball to save me(but I can bench alot) fat LA.
Last but not least "I really took you suckers" Rivera.
So, I guess we could be in the play-offs, or, we'll have a top pick in the 2007 draft.
I personally would like to go with a youth movement.
They have some weird nick names.Woods
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Here's what I would do to band-aid our OL.
In FA, pick up a RT. I'd prefer Ashworth from NE because he could also play some LT (just in case). It's good to have that flexibility.
In the Draft, I'd look at Spencer from Pitt in the 2nd. He could project to Guard immediately, but after reading his bio, he could also play OT with some seasoning. (I wonder if he could also play Center?)
With respect to LA, I'd definitely restructure his contract, otherwise I'd let him go.
Finally, I'd resign Gurode to fill in as depth at Guard and compete versus A Johnson at Center.
So, we'd have Flo, LA, Al Johnson, Rivera, Ashworth. And we'd have Spencer and Gurode and Peterman pushing LA, Al Johnson, and Rivera for playing time.
This plan isn't ideal, but it's plausible.
In FA, pick up a RT. I'd prefer Ashworth from NE because he could also play some LT (just in case). It's good to have that flexibility.
In the Draft, I'd look at Spencer from Pitt in the 2nd. He could project to Guard immediately, but after reading his bio, he could also play OT with some seasoning. (I wonder if he could also play Center?)
With respect to LA, I'd definitely restructure his contract, otherwise I'd let him go.
Finally, I'd resign Gurode to fill in as depth at Guard and compete versus A Johnson at Center.
So, we'd have Flo, LA, Al Johnson, Rivera, Ashworth. And we'd have Spencer and Gurode and Peterman pushing LA, Al Johnson, and Rivera for playing time.
This plan isn't ideal, but it's plausible.
ThEpLyMaKeR88
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i say we don't need a line man we should give petiti another year i mean he was a rookie and he was a starter so i give him a break besides that i say we need to pick up another lineman wheter it be a guard or a tackle because when Flo went down our backs sucked *** so we need so good depth for a security blanket and for the future
Redball Express
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..has been going on for many years and goes back all the way to Campo and then Gailey and beyond to '96, the last time we had a playoff team with any potential under Barry Switzer.
The OL philosophy has been one of trying to skimp on dollars and trying to have an offensive system that utilizes lesser athletes while overpaying one or more individuals in the OL to form a unit of questionable ability.
And it's not worked now for a decade. And BP is old school and he's continuing to try to get production from the OL in the same way.
That way being, have one or two guys of superior skills being paid the big bucks and then have the rest be able to produce at an average level and that will suffice. This philosophy begins in high school and college where the candidates for the OL are usually rejects from the other positions of skill, such as the DL, TE's and LBers.
In the NFL as played today, it's become increasingly difficult to do this because there is so much specialization at each position and the skills required to play in the NFL and play well are different with each system, whether it's the West Coast offense, the grind it out type or the air it out type.
BP hasn't really defined what this offense is trying to be, IMO. He wants it to be a ground game ball control attack, but he also wants to throw the screen pass and to protect Bledsoe to the max.
He is asking a very wide range of variation from the OL to achieve these goals and it's really asking too much from the type of personnel we have.
After three years now under BP, I've yet to have a definite idea of what the offense does best. I've yet to get a clear definition of what the offense is known for and can be counted on to be successful at.
Because we don't have this identity and because each year we constantly seem to change what we want from the offense, we end up changing, but inveriably, the OL gets sucked down the tubes because the personnel on hand aren't able to adapt.
Look at all the players we have tried in the OL as FA's or drafted under BP and look at their histories. One after another have failed to perform, either up to expectation or not played at all.
Tucker, Pettiti, Rivera, Rodgers, Peterman, Guorde, Johnson, not to mention the list of guys he had when he came that are now all gone and the guy, I forget his name we signed right after BP came to Dallas to man the RT spot and he'd last 4 games or so and was cut.
So while I'm wanting us to improve at the OL level, BP's history in this area is actually pretty poor.
His changing offensive philosophy of now bringing in Bledsoe to install a passing attack on top of a non-existant running attack coupled with breakdowns all across the OL with injury, poor drafting and poor FA signings has brought this to a head.
Bledsoe is slow a foot, holds the ball too long and the OL can't and isn't built to protect him well and it also isn't built to be a dominating ground control OL, either.
It's neither fish nor fowl. The OL is a 'tweaner operation and that's a large part of the problem offensively.
Until Dallas creates an OL that establishes one thing that it does clearly that the opposing defense has to account for and be challenged to stop each week, the offense is not going to any playoffs.
We either have to commit to playing smash-mouth football and bring the lunch bucket and attitude with our OL that that is the mission and do it and draft and play those players needed to do it..
..whatever that takes..
..or we go out and play throw the ball West Coast offense ball control with Bledsoe at the helm and run the ball to just keep things honest and give the OL that mission and draft and sign guys to do that..
..whatever it takes..
..and stop trying to vassilate each week from one to the other with the playcalling and coaching that just confuses and places too much pressure on an OL that doesnn't possess the skills to transition well from one type to another.
My feeling is that based on the present situation with Bledsoe here and BP having signed a rollover contract for essentially a one year extension to his previous contract..
..all this smokescreen about having Julius Jones and MIBIII as our offensive philosophy is not going to work. JuJo is injury-prone, we can't count on him for 25+ carries a game and MIBIII isn't able to do it either.
The OL isn't a dominant unit at opening holes and is being asked to do something that isn't well suited for them as a whole.
This team is going to win or lose on Bledsoe's arm. Period.
I don't have a problem with that. So long as the OL is retooled to suit him and the playcalling and coaching is created to give him the opportunities to do what he does well.
Throw the ball.
And I mean throw it on 1st down from the first snap and throw if need be on the last play of the 4th QT if that's what works best.
Steve Young, a person I respect and even though he was a 49er SB MVP player, had an offense built around him that allowed him to use his strengths to get there. He a had small, mobile OL that could pass protect and a
WR AND BACK CORP THAT COULD CATCH THE BALL AND MOVE THE CHAINS
..and when needed had speed downfield to spread the defense.
They never pretended to try to run the ball for 150 yds a game. They had the likes of Ricky Waters and a host of other less than stellar RB's who rarely broke 100 yds a game..
..but they used Steve Young in ways that magnified his strengths and adapted the offense and the players available to create an identity that defenses had to stop each week if they were to succeed.
My belief is that we have most the tools inplace to succeed in '06 offensively, but what we lack is the willingness to change the philosophy about playcalling and we lack an OL that is designed, manned and practiced to accomplish a singular skill set to compliment this.
Take Marco Rivera for example. I know he has had a significant injury. But the significant change in offensive philosophy for him in coming to Dallas from GB has to be affecting his skills.
Rivera was not known for his run-blocking skills. He was known for protecting Brett Farve. Yet in this offense, he's being called upon to run block a significant amount of the time and beyond that, he's having to be a crutch for Pettiti and his problems, too.
Not to mention having to also split time being a crutch for Al Johnson, too.
He's failing or being seen as a failure by some because he just isn't able to do the things he does well, pass block, and instead is getting sucked into the whole OL mess.
So I think the problems here are greater than just personnel. And until the offense is changed to play to it's strength and an offensive identy found and established..not much is going to change even if we sign All-Pro players and draft #1 picks to revamp the entire OL.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Bledsoe and BP go fishing someplace and really talk honestly about what each other sees and come to an understanding about what the offense is going to be about in '06.
Otherwise, I see more mistakes and more wasted draft picks and more frustrating play on Sunday.
We'll see.
Parcellswaterboy
The OL philosophy has been one of trying to skimp on dollars and trying to have an offensive system that utilizes lesser athletes while overpaying one or more individuals in the OL to form a unit of questionable ability.
And it's not worked now for a decade. And BP is old school and he's continuing to try to get production from the OL in the same way.
That way being, have one or two guys of superior skills being paid the big bucks and then have the rest be able to produce at an average level and that will suffice. This philosophy begins in high school and college where the candidates for the OL are usually rejects from the other positions of skill, such as the DL, TE's and LBers.
In the NFL as played today, it's become increasingly difficult to do this because there is so much specialization at each position and the skills required to play in the NFL and play well are different with each system, whether it's the West Coast offense, the grind it out type or the air it out type.
BP hasn't really defined what this offense is trying to be, IMO. He wants it to be a ground game ball control attack, but he also wants to throw the screen pass and to protect Bledsoe to the max.
He is asking a very wide range of variation from the OL to achieve these goals and it's really asking too much from the type of personnel we have.
After three years now under BP, I've yet to have a definite idea of what the offense does best. I've yet to get a clear definition of what the offense is known for and can be counted on to be successful at.
Because we don't have this identity and because each year we constantly seem to change what we want from the offense, we end up changing, but inveriably, the OL gets sucked down the tubes because the personnel on hand aren't able to adapt.
Look at all the players we have tried in the OL as FA's or drafted under BP and look at their histories. One after another have failed to perform, either up to expectation or not played at all.
Tucker, Pettiti, Rivera, Rodgers, Peterman, Guorde, Johnson, not to mention the list of guys he had when he came that are now all gone and the guy, I forget his name we signed right after BP came to Dallas to man the RT spot and he'd last 4 games or so and was cut.
So while I'm wanting us to improve at the OL level, BP's history in this area is actually pretty poor.
His changing offensive philosophy of now bringing in Bledsoe to install a passing attack on top of a non-existant running attack coupled with breakdowns all across the OL with injury, poor drafting and poor FA signings has brought this to a head.
Bledsoe is slow a foot, holds the ball too long and the OL can't and isn't built to protect him well and it also isn't built to be a dominating ground control OL, either.
It's neither fish nor fowl. The OL is a 'tweaner operation and that's a large part of the problem offensively.
Until Dallas creates an OL that establishes one thing that it does clearly that the opposing defense has to account for and be challenged to stop each week, the offense is not going to any playoffs.
We either have to commit to playing smash-mouth football and bring the lunch bucket and attitude with our OL that that is the mission and do it and draft and play those players needed to do it..
..whatever that takes..
..or we go out and play throw the ball West Coast offense ball control with Bledsoe at the helm and run the ball to just keep things honest and give the OL that mission and draft and sign guys to do that..
..whatever it takes..
..and stop trying to vassilate each week from one to the other with the playcalling and coaching that just confuses and places too much pressure on an OL that doesnn't possess the skills to transition well from one type to another.
My feeling is that based on the present situation with Bledsoe here and BP having signed a rollover contract for essentially a one year extension to his previous contract..
..all this smokescreen about having Julius Jones and MIBIII as our offensive philosophy is not going to work. JuJo is injury-prone, we can't count on him for 25+ carries a game and MIBIII isn't able to do it either.
The OL isn't a dominant unit at opening holes and is being asked to do something that isn't well suited for them as a whole.
This team is going to win or lose on Bledsoe's arm. Period.
I don't have a problem with that. So long as the OL is retooled to suit him and the playcalling and coaching is created to give him the opportunities to do what he does well.
Throw the ball.
And I mean throw it on 1st down from the first snap and throw if need be on the last play of the 4th QT if that's what works best.
Steve Young, a person I respect and even though he was a 49er SB MVP player, had an offense built around him that allowed him to use his strengths to get there. He a had small, mobile OL that could pass protect and a
WR AND BACK CORP THAT COULD CATCH THE BALL AND MOVE THE CHAINS
..and when needed had speed downfield to spread the defense.
They never pretended to try to run the ball for 150 yds a game. They had the likes of Ricky Waters and a host of other less than stellar RB's who rarely broke 100 yds a game..
..but they used Steve Young in ways that magnified his strengths and adapted the offense and the players available to create an identity that defenses had to stop each week if they were to succeed.
My belief is that we have most the tools inplace to succeed in '06 offensively, but what we lack is the willingness to change the philosophy about playcalling and we lack an OL that is designed, manned and practiced to accomplish a singular skill set to compliment this.
Take Marco Rivera for example. I know he has had a significant injury. But the significant change in offensive philosophy for him in coming to Dallas from GB has to be affecting his skills.
Rivera was not known for his run-blocking skills. He was known for protecting Brett Farve. Yet in this offense, he's being called upon to run block a significant amount of the time and beyond that, he's having to be a crutch for Pettiti and his problems, too.
Not to mention having to also split time being a crutch for Al Johnson, too.
He's failing or being seen as a failure by some because he just isn't able to do the things he does well, pass block, and instead is getting sucked into the whole OL mess.
So I think the problems here are greater than just personnel. And until the offense is changed to play to it's strength and an offensive identy found and established..not much is going to change even if we sign All-Pro players and draft #1 picks to revamp the entire OL.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Bledsoe and BP go fishing someplace and really talk honestly about what each other sees and come to an understanding about what the offense is going to be about in '06.
Otherwise, I see more mistakes and more wasted draft picks and more frustrating play on Sunday.
We'll see.
Parcellswaterboy
BARRYRAY
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I think our whole o-line blows, lets trade me , cut em whatever and start over, honestly they are beyond bad, name one anybody would trade for, I mean even Flo was at best so-so. I don't know how it got so bad, I don't know who would be better but man it can't get any worse, I am wondering if we need a serious coach because whatever BP and last years staff was doing didn't work, not even close, I don't believe any of these guys will ever get better, no not gonna happen, we need to face up to it, the first step is admitting it, I'm sorry we are ther o-line joke of the NFL, there I said it...
Thefourteenthwarrior
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I can't believe this post made it on the site. Larry allen went to the pro bowl, flozell was injured, we don't know who the more competent center is, rivera is overrated and petiti was terrible, but you want to cut larry allen because he no longer fits the scheme. After watching bledsoe get destroyed my question to you sir is out of these linemen who does fit the scheme?
kartr
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J.Jones21 said:
I'd rather cut Rivera, he's not healthy, and keep Allen. I like Spencer also and we could get Mark Levoir,RT, out of Notre Dame in the later rounds. If Flozell returns to normal, we really don't have the much wrong with the OL. We just need Bledsoe to stop holding the ball too long and work on his mobility.
neosapien23
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kartr said:
We're stuck with Rivera because of his signing bonus.
Yakuza Rich
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I believe they can fix the O-Line, but how they fix it for the future over short term is more of a question to me.
I really believe that LeCharles Bentley should be their number one target in free agency. He's young, a decent pass protector, and a superb run blocker. More importantly he can play both guard and center. If you can get Bentley and have him come in and play well, I believe that will just help Al Johnson greatly. Then keep either Larry or Rivera at right guard while developing a young player. Hopefully Rivera plays better once he gets healthier. Most importantly look for an upgrade at right tackle. They really need to look at a first rounder because they'll want to find somebody to play right tackle in the short term and then take over for Flozell down the road.
They can't rely on Flozell coming back healthy and they should rely too much on him even if that happens. Dallas has only ran the ball well statistically in one direction over the years.....behind left tackle. However, they've been one of the worst teams on running plays to the outside or the right side of the O-Line. They also can't block for a screen play to save their lives.
With Bentley, he can assure to cure up to 2 different positions for the next few years. And since good OT's are hard to come by, they'd better look at a first rounder now instead of paying for it later when Flozell has to retire.
Rich.......
I really believe that LeCharles Bentley should be their number one target in free agency. He's young, a decent pass protector, and a superb run blocker. More importantly he can play both guard and center. If you can get Bentley and have him come in and play well, I believe that will just help Al Johnson greatly. Then keep either Larry or Rivera at right guard while developing a young player. Hopefully Rivera plays better once he gets healthier. Most importantly look for an upgrade at right tackle. They really need to look at a first rounder because they'll want to find somebody to play right tackle in the short term and then take over for Flozell down the road.
They can't rely on Flozell coming back healthy and they should rely too much on him even if that happens. Dallas has only ran the ball well statistically in one direction over the years.....behind left tackle. However, they've been one of the worst teams on running plays to the outside or the right side of the O-Line. They also can't block for a screen play to save their lives.
With Bentley, he can assure to cure up to 2 different positions for the next few years. And since good OT's are hard to come by, they'd better look at a first rounder now instead of paying for it later when Flozell has to retire.
Rich.......
WV Cowboy
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As someone else posted, Johnson won't get any bigger or stronger, ... and that kills us, especially when we play against a 3-4.
He just seems to get pushed back a lot, which is a killer for Bledsoe.
Rivera didn't impress me as much as I had hoped he would this year except I don't remember him getting penalized a great deal.
LA is not mean anymore, ... he used to maul people, now he misses a lot.
Will Flo come back as healthy and as strong as we all would like him to be?
We need some competition at RT for Petitti.
I'm concerned.
He just seems to get pushed back a lot, which is a killer for Bledsoe.
Rivera didn't impress me as much as I had hoped he would this year except I don't remember him getting penalized a great deal.
LA is not mean anymore, ... he used to maul people, now he misses a lot.
Will Flo come back as healthy and as strong as we all would like him to be?
We need some competition at RT for Petitti.
I'm concerned.