Case for/against

darthseinfeld

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Im gonna do this periodically throughout the draft. Im gonna name some players, you give me a case for and against each player. Im going start off with potential 1st round picks

Drew Sanders: LB/Edge Rusher Arkansas

Jahmyr Gibbs: HB Alabama

Tuli Tuipulotu: DT/DE USC

Osyrus Torrence: G Florida
 

JIMMYBUFFETT

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Sanders = For
Gibbs = For. I think the whole idea of "I'd never take a running back or a linebacker in the first round" is silly notion and one not shared by a single NFL GM. The draft is about acquiring talent and rule #1 is don't pass up talented players. J. Gibbs are D. Sanders are talented playmakers and will be high on the Cowboys board whether the fans agree or not.

Tuipulotu = Against. I like player quite a bit but I think the first is too high and he's a guy that's going to need to grow into an NFL position.

Torrence = Against. I've got 5 tackles and 1 center ranked above him personally. I don't see him with first round value.
 

cnuball21

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Im gonna do this periodically throughout the draft. Im gonna name some players, you give me a case for and against each player. Im going start off with potential 1st round picks

Drew Sanders: LB/Edge Rusher Arkansas

Jahmyr Gibbs: HB Alabama

Tuli Tuipulotu: DT/DE USC

Osyrus Torrence: G Florida

Sanders: FOR - LVE is a FA and the rest of the LBr room is not good. Sanders would give us arguably the most athletic off ball LBr we’ve had in a decade plus with ++ pass rush ability. Still a little raw at the position but really high upside. Big fan.

Gibbs: AGAINST - RB is arguably the most easily replaceable position in football and success is highly dependent on OL play and scheme. Very poor positional value in round 1 and bad roster management.

Tuli: AGAINST - just not a 1st round player.

Torrence: AGAINST - more of a 2nd round talent to me due to lack of foot quickness. Also not a fan of a G in the 1st round due to positional value.
 

darthseinfeld

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Sanders = For
Gibbs = For. I think the whole idea of "I'd never take a running back or a linebacker in the first round" is silly notion and one not shared by a single NFL GM. The draft is about acquiring talent and rule #1 is don't pass up talented players. J. Gibbs are D. Sanders are talented playmakers and will be high on the Cowboys board whether the fans agree or not.

Tuipulotu = Against. I like player quite a bit but I think the first is too high and he's a guy that's going to need to grow into an NFL position.

Torrence = Against. I've got 5 tackles and 1 center ranked above him personally. I don't see him with first round value.
Sanders: FOR - LVE is a FA and the rest of the LBr room is not good. Sanders would give us arguably the most athletic off ball LBr we’ve had in a decade plus with ++ pass rush ability. Still a little raw at the position but really high upside. Big fan.

Gibbs: AGAINST - RB is arguably the most easily replaceable position in football and success is highly dependent on OL play and scheme. Very poor positional value in round 1 and bad roster management.

Tuli: AGAINST - just not a 1st round player.

Torrence: AGAINST - more of a 2nd round talent to me due to lack of foot quickness. Also not a fan of a G in the 1st round due to positional value.
I think I poorly stated in the title. The purpose is to make cases both for and against each player
 

J-man

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Drew Sanders: LB/Edge Rusher Arkansas
For, he's a stud. He can rush, cover and shed. He and Micah would give us so much versatility and the best LB duo in the league.

Jahmyr Gibbs: HB Alabama
Against, he is basically the same player as Pollard, the lightning, we need a new thunder.

Tuli Tuipulotu: DT/DE USC
Against, he is a decent player and has some upside, but I don't see him as a huge upgrade over our current guys.

Osyrus Torrence: G Florida
For, he is huge and a mauler. yes he's limited in mobility, but he is beast in the phone booth. I'm all for continuing the rebuild up front.
 

darthseinfeld

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Gibbs:

For: Elite speed and receiving ability. Potential 1,000/1,000 player

Against: position value. How effective inside the T will he be as runner in the NFL. Questionable pass pro

Sanders:

For: Potential dynamic player both as a LB and as a pass rusher. Another passing chest piece. Might let Parsons play more LB. Very high upside

Against: limited development at both LB and as a pas rusher. Will he be a plus player at either or just adequate

Tuipulotu:

For: Highly productive player. Excellent interior pass rusher. Scheme fit as a player that can play 3T or 4i

Against: Is he maxed out athletically. How will he hold up against the run as a DT

Torrence:

For: Impressive production. Never allowed a sack in college. Excellent run blocker. I disagree with Broaddus's "slow footed" take, and I think its starting a false narrative. Could make a good line very strong

Against: Positional value. While I disagree with Broaddus on his take, is he a fit in a ZB scheme?
 

darthseinfeld

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Drew Sanders: LB/Edge Rusher Arkansas
For, he's a stud. He can rush, cover and shed. He and Micah would give us so much versatility and the best LB duo in the league.

Jahmyr Gibbs: HB Alabama
Against, he is basically the same player as Pollard, the lightning, we need a new thunder.

Tuli Tuipulotu: DT/DE USC
Against, he is a decent player and has some upside, but I don't see him as a huge upgrade over our current guys.

Osyrus Torrence: G Florida
For, he is huge and a mauler. yes he's limited in mobility, but he is beast in the phone booth. I'm all for continuing the rebuild up front.
Gibbs isnt the same player as Pollard at all. Gibbs is much closer to Mcaffery or Kamara than he is to Pollard
 

darthseinfeld

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Gotcha. That being said if I’m against a player at 26 I probably won’t have a reason to be for him.
Im not looking an individuals personal absolute opinion on a player. Its reasons for and against drafting. Not a thread I want black and whites opinions. We have enough black and white takes here
 

AsthmaField

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Im gonna do this periodically throughout the draft. Im gonna name some players, you give me a case for and against each player. Im going start off with potential 1st round picks

Drew Sanders: LB/Edge Rusher Arkansas

Jahmyr Gibbs: HB Alabama

Tuli Tuipulotu: DT/DE USC

Osyrus Torrence: G Florida
Drew Sanders:
  • For: Talented athlete that is an ascending player. A really nice pass rusher that is just scratching the surface. Would allow Dan Quinn to use him as a chess piece like Parsons. He could take pressure off of Micah and in protection meetings on Saturday nights, the offense couldn’t just put extra guys on Parsons because he could drop with Sanders coming. He would allow the defense to be even more multiple. Seems to have nice LB instincts and football IQ.
  • Against: has only one year of starting. High ceiling player but I think he has a low floor as well. I normally like to see a player do it for more than one season. Saban chose not to play him much for some reason. Not overly physical.
Jahmyr Gibbs:
  • For: An extremely talented runner who is smooth as silk and catches the ball like a slot receiver. Has good vision and a knack for making cuts at full speed. Is fast and uses subtle moves to discombobulate defenders in the open field. Will be a real weapon in the screen game. If he catches the ball with blockers out in front… look out. In conjunction with Pollard would scare defenses as either could go the distance on any carry. With Gibbs replacing Elliott, defenses would have to be very good on every down. Could make the Dallas run game a truly terrifying experience for defensive coordinators.
  • Against: Positional value. Runners drafted in the mid rounds could be effective in a good run offense (though not as dangerous). Gibbs is not a proficient pass protector and would need some work in that area. Would be lighting paired with lightning in tandem with Pollard. The 3rd RB would have to provide the thunder.
Tulipulotu:
  • For: Tuli plays with a relentless spirit and will give you all he has on every snap. He has some versatility to be used inside or outside and would provide Quinn with plenty of options to work him in on a rotation. He is strong in the run game. Could provide a good pass rush from DT.
  • Against: He won’t give you a ton of edge rush ability. He will set a good edge in the run game but his pass rush won’t scare NFL tackles. Like Jimmy Johnson said… run stoppers are a dime-a-dozen. While his athleticism is high for a 3T DT, it is low for an NFL edge rusher. Looks to me more like a second round player who is solid but not going to provide enough to warrant a first round pick.
Torrence:
  • For: A very strong, big guy that is suited more for the Cowboys’ new inside zone that Solari and Schottenheimer will run, than he is for last year’s outside zone. Inside zone requires the OL to get vertical movement with the DL instead of just the horizontal displacement that the outside zone requires. Torrence is tailor made to get that physical push upfield. A bit of a bully and in conjunction with Tyler Smith, would provide a rough day on the left side for defenders trying to hold up against the run. He’s a good effort player and can be counted on to play hard.
  • Against: He is a similar player to Avila, who can be acquired in the second round… which really points to OG being a positional value concern. While I don’t really see Torrence as a slow footed player, he might not be as proficient getting out when the team does decide to use an outside zone, although it won’t be as often. In my mind, Torrence isn’t as good a player as Schmitz (who could play at C or OG), who could probably be taken at pick 26 as well.

I see Gibbs, Sanders and Torrence as worthy of a first round pick, while I don’t really see that with Tulipolutu. You could question the positional value with all three of Sanders, Gibbs and Torrence, but I see all of them as viable late first round targets.

With Sanders you could argue his pass rush potential and make a good case for him but his pass rush in the pro’s isn’t a given at this point.

Still, I like all 3 of them and would understand why the team would want any of them at pick 26. They all could really help immediately.
 
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darthseinfeld

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Drew Sanders:
  • For: Talented athlete that is an ascending player. A really nice pass rusher that is just scratching the surface. Would allow Dan Quinn to use him as a chess piece like Parsons. He could take pressure off of Micah and in protection meetings on Saturday nights, the offense couldn’t just put extra guys on Parsons because he could drop with Sanders coming. He would allow the defense to be even more multiple. Seems to have nice LB instincts and football IQ.
  • Against: has only one year of starting. High ceiling player but I think he has a low floor as well. I normally like to see a player do it for more than one season. Saban chose not to play him much for some reason. Not overly physical.
Jahmyr Gibbs:
  • For: An extremely talented runner who is smooth as silk and catches the ball like a slot receiver. Has good vision and a knack for making cuts at full speed. Is fast and uses subtle moves to discombobulate defenders in the open field. Will be a real weapon in the screen game. If he catches the ball with blockers out in front… look out. In conjunction with Pollard would scare defenses as either could go the distance on any carry. With Gibbs replacing Elliott, defenses would have to be very good on every down. Could make the Dallas run game a truly terrifying experience for defensive coordinators.
  • Against: Positional value. Runners drafted in the mid rounds could be effective in a good run offense (though not as dangerous). Gibbs is not a proficient pass protector and would need some work in that area. Would be lighting paired with lightning in tandem with Pollard. The 3rd RB would have to provide the thunder.
Tulipulotu:
  • For: Tuli plays with a relentless spirit and will give you all he has on every snap. He has some versatility to be used inside or outside and would provide Quinn with plenty of options to work him in on a rotation. He is strong in the run game. Could provide a good pass rush from DT.
  • Against: He won’t give you a ton of edge rush ability. He will set a good edge in the run game but his pass rush won’t scare NFL tackles. Like Jimmy Johnson said… run stoppers are a dime-a-dozen. While his athleticism is high for a 3T DT, it is low for an NFL edge rusher. Looks to me more like a second round player who is solid but not going to provide enough to warrant a first round pick.
Torrence:
  • For: A very strong, big guy that is suited more for the Cowboys’ new inside zone that Solari and Schottenheimer will run, than he is for last year’s outside zone. Inside zone requires the OL to get vertical movement with the DL instead of just the horizontal displacement that the outside zone requires. Torrence is tailor made to get that physical push upfield. A bit of a bully and in conjunction with Tyler Smith, would provide a rough day on the left side for defenders trying to hold up against the run. He’s a good effort player and can be counted on to play hard.
  • Against: He is a similar player to Avila, who can be acquired in the second round… which really points to OG being a positional value concern. While I don’t really see Torrence as a slow footed player, he might not be as proficient getting out when the team does decide to use an outside zone, although it won’t be as often. In my mind, Torrence isn’t as good a player as Schmitz (who could play at C or OG), who could probably be taken at pick 26 as well.

I see Gibbs, Sanders and Torrence as worthy of a first round pick, while I don’t really see that with Tulipolutu. You could question the positional value with all three of Sanders, Gibbs and Torrence, but I see all of them as viable late first round targets.

With Sanders you could argue his pass rush potential and make a good case for him but his pass rush in the pro’s isn’t a given at this point.

Still, I like all 3 of them and would understand why the team would want any of them at pick 26. They all could really help immediately.
Excellent insights as always!
 

Sydla

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Sanders = For
Gibbs = For. I think the whole idea of "I'd never take a running back or a linebacker in the first round" is silly notion and one not shared by a single NFL GM. The draft is about acquiring talent and rule #1 is don't pass up talented players. J. Gibbs are D. Sanders are talented playmakers and will be high on the Cowboys board whether the fans agree or not.

Tuipulotu = Against. I like player quite a bit but I think the first is too high and he's a guy that's going to need to grow into an NFL position.

Torrence = Against. I've got 5 tackles and 1 center ranked above him personally. I don't see him with first round value.
I think you are wrong about this, at least as it pertains to the running back position. I've heard the Eagles GM, for example, talk about this and draft value and how some positions simply don't have the return or value in the first round.

And stats would seem to bare that out. Other than kicker and punter (and OC if you separate out OL positions), RB is the least drafted position in football in the first round over the last decade other than TE.

QB, WR, OL (OG and OT), DT, DE, LB, CB and S have all had more draft picks in the last ten drafts in the first round than TBs.
 

Cowboyny

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Im gonna do this periodically throughout the draft. Im gonna name some players, you give me a case for and against each player. Im going start off with potential 1st round picks

Drew Sanders: LB/Edge Rusher Arkansas

Jahmyr Gibbs: HB Alabama

Tuli Tuipulotu: DT/DE USC

Osyrus Torrence: G Florida
Sanders-For, but his inexperience off the ball worries me.
Gibbs-For, he is a homerun threat, everytime he touches the football
Tuip-against, think they will have bigger needs to fill.
Torrence-against. Pure guard, that is more suited on the right side.
 

darthseinfeld

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I think Avilia from TCU is a similar player and he can be drafted a round later.
Avilia is good versatilite lineman, and will probably be a solid starter at LG, but I see Torrance as significantly better. Saying that, I do see Avilia as a good day option.

I also never trust Big 12 guys to be as good in the NFL as they looked in college
 

KingintheNorth

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Drew Sanders: LB/Edge Rusher Arkansas

Jahmyr Gibbs: HB Alabama

Tuli Tuipulotu: DT/DE USC

Osyrus Torrence: G Florida
Sanders
  • For
    • Great size/athleticism combo
    • Ideal to help combat more athletic TE's around the league
    • Sneaky good pass rusher
  • Against
    • Is he a Mike or 3-4 OLB?
    • Good-at-everything, elite-at-nothing
    • Not sure about him in run defense; needs to get stronger
Gibbs
  • For
    • Home run back
    • Meep meep. He can scoot.
    • Only 20 (21 next month)
  • Against
    • Toughness. Can he run between the tackles?
    • Patience. Runs himself into trouble sometimes
    • Analytics scream don't draft a RB high. Find cheap ones and give them one contract
Tuipuloto
  • For
    • Went to best college in the world
    • High motor
  • Against
    • Tweener (Cowboys FO may see this as "position flex")
Torrence
  • For
    • Best Guard in the draft
    • Day one starter
    • Strong, so powerful. If he gets on you, that play is over
    • Mean
  • Against
    • Slow-footed
    • Top-heavy
    • Plays high, which can be extremely problematic battling elite interior defensive linemen
 

Cowboyny

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Avilia is good versatilite lineman, and will probably be a solid starter at LG, but I see Torrance as significantly better. Saying that, I do see Avilia as a good day option.

I also never trust Big 12 guys to be as good in the NFL as they looked in college
He did have a good game against Michigan and Mazi Smith.
 

beware_d-ware

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Im gonna do this periodically throughout the draft. Im gonna name some players, you give me a case for and against each player. Im going start off with potential 1st round picks

Drew Sanders: LB/Edge Rusher Arkansas

Jahmyr Gibbs: HB Alabama

Tuli Tuipulotu: DT/DE USC

Osyrus Torrence: G Florida

For Sanders: A hand in glove fit with what Dan Quinn wants to do. Sanders is a true positionless defender who can cover underneath, rush the passer, and still hold up against the run. His stats this year were eye popping... 103 tackles, 13.5 TFLs, 9.5 sacks, and 4 forced turnovers, all in his first year starting. If he came back to Arkansas and repeated that, he'd be a top 10 lock. Sanders just screams Vander Esch to me... both gigantic, super-athletic easy movers (and yes, white guys) who piled on the stat sheet for one year starting. Vander Esch destroyed the Combine, and I bet Sanders will too. What would you give for another LVE without any neck issues?

Against Sanders: His pass rushing is kind of "empty calories", and he got a lot of sacks in ways that won't translate at the next level. Sort of UCLA Anthony Barr-ish. He's just not very powerful overall, which IMO will cap out his pass rushing, and RBs take him for rides after contact. If you don't like LVE's run stuffing, you won't like Sanders either. LB tends to be a high-injury, low value position, and it's better to spend a lot of late picks on guys like Clark and Donovan Wilson rather than put your eggs in a 1st round basket.


For Gibbs: Backs with his receiving polish come around basically never. Thumbing through the draft history of RBs, the only 1st and 2nd round guys in the last 5 years who I see as comparable receivers are James Cook and Clyde Edwards-Helaire. He's also a pretty athletic rusher... not really enough to justify a top 50 pick on that alone, but he will give you some explosive changeup carries. Dude looks like an Alvin Kamara clone and is ideally built for a pass-first league.

Against Gibbs: Everyone always thinks they're going to throw to that cool new space back or seam-stretcher TE, but how many actually do? Fact is that most teams funnel their passing games through their WRs. RB passes are usually correlated with less scoring than downfield passes... they are simply less efficient. You need to throw like 60+ passes a year to Gibbs to get your money's worth out of him, and most offenses don't and shouldn't. For the right offense, he's Kamara. For the wrong one, he could be your next CEH.


For Torrance: Dude is the biggest guard prospect in memory, and can actually play ball. IIRC, he gave up something like 0 sacks and 10 pressures this season. And of course, he's just a bulldozer when you want him to run-block the guy across from him. He played Jalen Carter, who's arguably the scariest college DT since Ndamukong Suh, and held him in check. He's got 4 years of quality play and an All-American nod under his belt. Torrance is just a really solid football player and will pose unique matchup problems for DTs at the next level.... even NFL guards aren't that big.

Against Torrance: He's huge, and he's pretty mobile for his size, but he's not that mobile overall. I don't know what MM and Schottenheimer's run scheme looks like, but if they like pulling their guards a lot, or having them hunt LBs in space, Torrance isn't the right guy. Not for the first round, anyway. There is also the problem with drafting guards in general... they are a fairly low impact position, and they are very slow to develop. It's not uncommon for the light to go on for interior linemen in like year 3 or 4. So you may end up not getting much value out of Torrance's rookie deal. If he's like a lot of former early round guards, you'll pay for his learning curve while he plays very average football, and then he'll break out right in time for a big payday. Chris Lindstrom comes to mind this year.

I haven't watched Tuipolotu.
 

darthseinfeld

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For Sanders: A hand in glove fit with what Dan Quinn wants to do. Sanders is a true positionless defender who can cover underneath, rush the passer, and still hold up against the run. His stats this year were eye popping... 103 tackles, 13.5 TFLs, 9.5 sacks, and 4 forced turnovers, all in his first year starting. If he came back to Arkansas and repeated that, he'd be a top 10 lock. Sanders just screams Vander Esch to me... both gigantic, super-athletic easy movers (and yes, white guys) who piled on the stat sheet for one year starting. Vander Esch destroyed the Combine, and I bet Sanders will too. What would you give for another LVE without any neck issues?

Against Sanders: His pass rushing is kind of "empty calories", and he got a lot of sacks in ways that won't translate at the next level. Sort of UCLA Anthony Barr-ish. He's just not very powerful overall, which IMO will cap out his pass rushing, and RBs take him for rides after contact. If you don't like LVE's run stuffing, you won't like Sanders either. LB tends to be a high-injury, low value position, and it's better to spend a lot of late picks on guys like Clark and Donovan Wilson rather than put your eggs in a 1st round basket.


For Gibbs: Backs with his receiving polish come around basically never. Thumbing through the draft history of RBs, the only 1st and 2nd round guys in the last 5 years who I see as comparable receivers are James Cook and Clyde Edwards-Helaire. He's also a pretty athletic rusher... not really enough to justify a top 50 pick on that alone, but he will give you some explosive changeup carries. Dude looks like an Alvin Kamara clone and is ideally built for a pass-first league.

Against Gibbs: Everyone always thinks they're going to throw to that cool new space back or seam-stretcher TE, but how many actually do? Fact is that most teams funnel their passing games through their WRs. RB passes are usually correlated with less scoring than downfield passes... they are simply less efficient. You need to throw like 60+ passes a year to Gibbs to get your money's worth out of him, and most offenses don't and shouldn't. For the right offense, he's Kamara. For the wrong one, he could be your next CEH.


For Torrance: Dude is the biggest guard prospect in memory, and can actually play ball. IIRC, he gave up something like 0 sacks and 10 pressures this season. And of course, he mauls against the run. He played Jalen Carter, who's arguably the scariest college DT since Ndamukong Suh, and held him in check. He's got 4 years of quality play and an All-American nod under his belt. Torrance is just a really solid football player and will pose unique matchup problems for DTs at the next level.... even NFL guards aren't that big.

Against Torrance: He's huge, and he's pretty mobile for his size, but he's not that mobile overall. I don't know what MM and Schottenheimer's run scheme looks like, but if they like pulling their guards a lot, or having them hunt LBs in space, Torrance isn't the right guy. There is also the problem with drafting guards in general... they are a fairly low impact position, and they are very slow to develop. It's not uncommon for the light to go on for interior linemen in like year 3 or 4. So you may end up not getting much value out of Torrance's rookie deal. If he's like a lot of former early round guards, you'll pay for his learning curve while he plays very average football, and then he'll break out right in time for a big payday. Chris Lindstrom comes to mind this year.

I haven't watched Tuipolotu.
Torrance actually hasnt given up a sack his entire college career
 
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