Cowboyszone Report Card... Stephen Bowen... GPA = 2.18

[GimmeTheBall!]

Grade him. He may be our 2011 starter. How does that sit with you?

Trust me, when he gets near the end of his career his middle name will be "Journeyman." Nothing special, just an average guy who played in an average defense for a sucky defensive coordinator guru.

 

[CowboyDan]

If you think that the people .... well, lets leave it at just me ...... if you think I am saying that losing Spears had such a dramatic affect on the run defense that there would have to be a clear indication in the stats, then, yes, you are exaggerating.

As I have ALREADY mentioned, he plays one position out of 11, and is one player in a rotation, so it is likley that even with a dropoff in playing the run FROM THAT ONE POSITION, there may not be a noticeble statistical change.

That point should be incredibly obvious. We weren't losing a star RB, we were losing a DE in a defense that doesn't rack up a lot of stats for DE's and replacing him with someone that has a little different skill set, but also doesn't rack up a lot of stats.

In otehr words, stats don't say a whole lot in this situation. Besides, i did quote you one stat since that seems to guide your thinking, and that is that Spears ran up almost as many tackles in half a season as Bowen did in a full season.

I think you argue just to argue. Here's what I know..........if there's a dropoff, it would show somewhere. If it doesn't show, then it's not a dropoff.

 

[baj1dallas]

Trust me, when he gets near the end of his career his middle name will be "Journeyman." Nothing special, just an average guy who played in an average defense for a sucky defensive coordinator guru.

Yeah he has a good play every now and then where he fights and claws and makes something happen, but not very often.

 

[JohnnyHopkins]

I did, in the Spears thread. There's no dropoff, and I'm so tired of reading "our run defense suffered when Spears went down."

Gotcha, guess I did not pay any attention to that thread. Our Defensive play dropped off when Spears went down by the way.

 

[Stautner]

I think you argue just to argue. Here's what I know..........if there's a dropoff, it would show somewhere. If it doesn't show, then it's not a dropoff.

Hey, this hasn't been a one sided exchange - you contradicted me too, remember?

That said, I agree it would show somewhere - obviously that has to be the case. But unless you are clinging to a comparison of game to game team stats, which clearly can't tell the full tale about individual performance, then what in the world can you hang your hang your hat on when saying there is no dropoff?

Is the standard that if you say there is no dropoff then it must be true?

The reality is that neither of us has a lot of data to backup what we are saying - it's primarily our own observations and beliefs, and mine are just as valid as yours.

Where I believe it shows up is on the field - I see Bowen penetrating, but in doing so he leaves running lanes open. Spears is more of a guy who holds the point of attack - doesn't get the penetration Bowen does, but doesn't leave the running lanes as open. That's stuff stats can't measure.

But, again, if you do want to cling to stats, I have twice given you the stat about Spears making more tackles, but you have yet to acknowledge that.

 

[CowboyDan]

Where I believe it shows up is on the field - I see Bowen penetrating, but in doing so he leaves running lanes open. Spears is more of a guy who holds the point of attack - doesn't get the penetration Bowen does, but doesn't leave the running lanes as open. That's stuff stats can't measure.

But, again, if you do want to cling to stats, I have twice given you the stat about Spears making more tackles, but you have yet to acknowledge that.

How does # of tackles by Bowen vs Spears = run-stopping ability?
Yardage given up = run-stopping ability (or lack thereof) and it was unchanged when Spears went down. You may even be able to argue that it improved. And you said it yourself, Spears only played on 1st & 2nd down.....so he was playing primarily on running downs and he was fresher than, say, someone who had to play every down when Spears was injured? That someone being Stephen Bowen.
I know we agree on the grade. I'm not arguing that. I'm trying to figure out why you think Spears is a run stopper.
Can you provide a link to the above stat? Also, as someone stated earlier, DE's free up the linebackers to make the tackles against the run. Just ask Brian Urlacher and Ray Lewis about this. Let's take a look at one simple stat.....avg rushing yards per game
with Spears: 106.6 yds
without Spears: 97.9 yds

 

[Stautner]

How does # of tackles by Bowen vs Spears = run-stopping ability?
Yardage given up = run-stopping ability (or lack thereof) and it was unchanged when Spears went down. You may even be able to argue that it improved. And you said it yourself, Spears only played on 1st & 2nd down.....so he was playing primarily on running downs and he was fresher than, say, someone who had to play every down when Spears was injured? That someone being Stephen Bowen.
I know we agree on the grade. I'm not arguing that. I'm trying to figure out why you think Spears is a run stopper.
Can you provide a link to the above stat? Also, as someone stated earlier, DE's free up the linebackers to make the tackles against the run. Just ask Brian Urlacher and Ray Lewis about this. Let's take a look at one simple stat.....avg rushing yards per game
with Spears: 106.6 yds
without Spears: 97.9 yds

Okay, so it is the team stats you are looking at. Well, let's consider that for a second.

Average passing yards allowed per game:
with Spears: 201.9 ypg
without Spears: 272.4 ypg

So, following your logic that the difference in team stats is what matters, Spears is a superior player to Bowen against the pass.

Right? I mean, either team stats tell the story or not, don't they?

That said, Hell, I agree that tackles isn't an ideal indicator of who played better against the run, but it's at least a stat built on what the individual players did, and not a TEAM stat built on TEAM performance that can be affected by so many more things than just what those two individuals players did.

As for a link on the tackles, just check the Cowboys website. It has all the individual defensive stats.

As for the notion that Spears should have as many tackles in 1/2 a season as Bowen had in a full season because he should have been fresher only playing 1st and second downs and Bown played every down ......... COME ON! Are you really trying to say that a part time player who only played 1/2 the season should have about the same season stats as a guy who played all season, and played a big part of it as an every down player? Are you saying the guy who played half the downs as the other should have about the same season stats as the guy who played twice the downs? I know you realize how ridiculous that sounds.

 

[casmith07]

Okay, so it is the team stats you are looking at. Well, let's consider that for a second.

Average passing yards allowed per game:
with Spears: 201.9 ypg
without Spears: 272.4 ypg

So, following your logic that the difference in team stats is what matters, Spears is a superior player to Bowen against the pass.

Right? I mean, either team stats tell the story or not, don't they?

That said, Hell, I agree that tackles isn't an ideal indicator of who played better against the run, but it's at least a stat built on what the individual players did, and not a TEAM stat built on TEAM performance that can be affected by so many more things than just what those two individuals players did.

As for a link on the tackles, just check the Cowboys website. It has all the individual defensive stats.

As for the notion that Spears should have as many tackles in 1/2 a season as Bowen had in a full season because he should have been fresher only playing 1st and second downs and Bown played every down ......... COME ON! Are you really trying to say that a part time player who only played 1/2 the season should have about the same season stats as a guy who played all season, and played a big part of it as an every down player? Are you saying the guy who played half the downs as the other should have about the same season stats as the guy who played twice the downs? I know you realize how ridiculous that sounds.

I already crushed him in the Spears thread. You're wasting your electrolytes typing on that keyboard

 

[Plankton]

C. Was so so as a starter. Not stout enough against the run, but does a fine job pushing the pocket on pass downs. I don't think he's starter material, but a valuable third end. If he's starting, then the Cowboys did not address the DL issues properly.

 

[TellerMorrow34]

He was ok in Spears absence. I won't be pissed if he's the starter (assuming we even see a season at this point) but I'm not going to be overly thrilled about it either.

I'd much rather have Spears back.

 

[Patton]

It's not saying a lot, but he was the best defensive lineman on the team last year. I'm curving him to a B.

 

[JBell]

Not sure if Bowen has what it takes to be a 3-down player.

He's definitely not to blame for our defensive woes last year, but he didn't exactly help either.

 

[CowboyDan]

Okay, so it is the team stats you are looking at. Well, let's consider that for a second.

Average passing yards allowed per game:
with Spears: 201.9 ypg
without Spears: 272.4 ypg

So, following your logic that the difference in team stats is what matters, Spears is a superior player to Bowen against the pass.

Right? I mean, either team stats tell the story or not, don't they?

That said, Hell, I agree that tackles isn't an ideal indicator of who played better against the run, but it's at least a stat built on what the individual players did, and not a TEAM stat built on TEAM performance that can be affected by so many more things than just what those two individuals players did.

As for a link on the tackles, just check the Cowboys website. It has all the individual defensive stats.

As for the notion that Spears should have as many tackles in 1/2 a season as Bowen had in a full season because he should have been fresher only playing 1st and second downs and Bown played every down ......... COME ON! Are you really trying to say that a part time player who only played 1/2 the season should have about the same season stats as a guy who played all season, and played a big part of it as an every down player? Are you saying the guy who played half the downs as the other should have about the same season stats as the guy who played twice the downs? I know you realize how ridiculous that sounds.

Nice try, but what you're forgetting is that Spears didn't play in passing situations, because he's a "run stuffer." So he was replaced by Stephen Bowen in passing downs. Good try though.
And yes, a part time player who plays primarily on running downs can possibly have a similar amount of tackles as a guy who plays on passing downs for half of the season, and full time for the second half of the season. It's absolutely possible.

I already crushed him in the Spears thread. You're wasting your electrolytes typing on that keyboard

Sure you did.

 

[Stautner]

Nice try, but what you're forgetting is that Spears didn't play in passing situations, because he's a "run stuffer." So he was replaced by Stephen Bowen in passing downs. Good try though.

So, you are telling me there are other factors at work regarding how TEAM averages work out than just whether Spears was healthy or not?

Amazing, I thought the only thing that mattered was averages before, and after Spears got hurt.

Of course, it works that way when it suits your argument, but hey, you get to make up your own rules, right?

Perhaps you should consider that part of the reason that opponents rushing averages stayed down the second half of the season was that they were averaging 71 yards more per game passing against us the 2nd half of the season. Perhaps the run took on a little less importance for opponents the 2nd half of the season when QB's were torching us for 272.4 ypg? But no, the only explaination has to be that Bowen is just as good against the run as Spears, right?

By the way, since Bowen is supposed to be superior to Spears against the pass, why is it that once Spears got hurt and Bowen was able to play against the pass every down that teams started torching us for 71 more yards per game?

Again, is it maybe that TEAM stats don't really tell the story of individual players?

And yes, a part time player who plays primarily on running downs can possibly have a similar amount of tackles as a guy who plays on passing downs for half of the season, and full time for the second half of the season. It's absolutely possible.

Yes, possible, if the one guys plays better than the other.

Nobody who is willing to have a rational discussion would suggest that two players of equal talent playing the same position in the same defense should have the same season stats if one has almost twice the opportunity as the other.

 

[CowboyDan]

Don't hurt yourself on this, it's not that complicated. If you're going to bring up about passing yardage, than you have to acknowledge that Bowen played in passing situations, not Spears.
Now, if you want to stick to the topic, which is how great Spears is against the rush, then show me where the dropoff is when Bowen replaced him. Remember, I'm not the one claiming there's a dropoff, you are. I just want to know why you and others think that, because I watch the games, I see the stats and I don't see where you're getting it from.

As for the number of tackles, the facts are that Bowen had more tackles, more sacks and he even defended a pass. And the team's avg. rushing yards given up went down when Bowen took over full time. Those are the facts....use them as you wish.

 

[Stautner]

Don't hurt yourself on this, it's not that complicated. If you're going to bring up about passing yardage, than you have to acknowledge that Bowen played in passing situations, not Spears.
Now, if you want to stick to the topic, which is how great Spears is against the rush, then show me where the dropoff is when Bowen replaced him. Remember, I'm not the one claiming there's a dropoff, you are. I just want to know why you and others think that, because I watch the games, I see the stats and I don't see where you're getting it from.

As for the number of tackles, the facts are that Bowen had more tackles, more sacks and he even defended a pass. And the team's avg. rushing yards given up went down when Bowen took over full time. Those are the facts....use them as you wish.

So, you are still saying that passing stats are only built on 3rd downs so the fact that Spears wasn't available for 1st and 2nd downs had no bearing on passing stats?

I already acknoledged that Bowen was the 3rd down guy - but if you want to pretend to be rational you also have to admit that 3rd downs or "passing downs" are not the only times teams pass, and that passing stats are built just as much on 1st and second downs when defenses have to worry about the run as well. Teams aren't only passing when their backs are to the wall. Surely you wouldn't suggest that of the 30-35 or more times a team passes each game they are only doing so on "passing downs"?

All that said, the fact remains that when Bowen started playing EVERY DOWN where the opponent threw the ball, opponents passing stats went up dramatically.

If you are going to claim in one place that TEAM STATS before and after the Spears injury matters, then you have to be consistent.

The point of all that isn't that I think Bowen is solely responsible for teams havng more success throwing against us in the 2nd half, it's to help you understand that TEAM stats are influence by a lot of things - a LOT of things - and not just one player being lost or one player being plugged in.

I notice that you completely ignored that very strong possibility that teams having dramatically more success passing in the 2nd half of the season played a large part in opponents not running for more yardage - again, you only hear what you want and either twist or ignore what doesn't suit you.

Individual stats are what the individual does - team stats are what 16 rotating players do. Accordingly, individual stats aren't diluted and shaped by overall team performance to remotely to the same degree as team stats are. That's a very simple concept that really isn't disputable by a rational mind. Yes, Bown had 3 more tackles, in dramatically more playing time. If one QB has 100 more passing yards in a season, but throws the ball 50% more often than the other, is he the more successful QB?

 

[casmith07]

Lol at the presumption that Spears didn't play in passing situations. Apparently our opponents only passed the ball on 3rd down until Week 8?

I'll just leave this here -> :laugh1:

 

[ThreeSportStar80]

He peformed at a C level honestly... I like his push rush skills but he must improve stopping the run.

 

[Stautner]

How does # of tackles by Bowen vs Spears = run-stopping ability?
Yardage given up = run-stopping ability (or lack thereof) and it was unchanged when Spears went down. You may even be able to argue that it improved. And you said it yourself, Spears only played on 1st & 2nd down.....so he was playing primarily on running downs and he was fresher than, say, someone who had to play every down when Spears was injured? That someone being Stephen Bowen.
I know we agree on the grade. I'm not arguing that. I'm trying to figure out why you think Spears is a run stopper.
Can you provide a link to the above stat? Also, as someone stated earlier, DE's free up the linebackers to make the tackles against the run. Just ask Brian Urlacher and Ray Lewis about this. Let's take a look at one simple stat.....avg rushing yards per game
with Spears: 106.6 yds
without Spears: 97.9 yds

The point of all that isn't that I think Bowen is solely responsible for teams havng more success throwing against us in the 2nd half, it's to help you understand that TEAM stats are influence by a lot of things - a LOT of things - and not just one player being lost or one player being plugged in.

I notice that you completely ignored that very strong possibility that teams having dramatically more success passing in the 2nd half of the season played a large part in opponents not running for more yardage - again, you only hear what you want and either twist or ignore what doesn't suit you.

Hey Dan - I decided to spend a minute or two looking for stats that you love so much (well, as long as they are only the ones you want to acknowledge). I don't think you will like these ......

I found that in the 1st half of the season opponents averaged 28.13 rushes per game against us, and in the 2nd half the averaged dropped to 22.13 per game.

And to think we thought holding opponents to about the same rushing yardage in the 2nd half was all about Bowen playing the run as well as Spears ..........

BUT WAIT - THERE's MORE!

Opponents averaged 3.79 yards per carry against us when Spears was healthy, and 4.42 yards per carry after Spears went down and Bowen was playing every down.

HOW'S THAT FOR STATS?

 

[jjktkk]

Solid player, good enought to start, but I can see Lassimore cutting into his playing time.