Cutler/Young at 12-15

[dbair1967]

ya, Matt Jones totally tore up the Rose Bowl and beat one of the best college teams ever... and the sad thing is, Young did that so often it's expected of him... he's just that good... people trying to knock Young didn't watch him enough, that's all there is to it...

sure I watched him enough...and he cant escape what I see are the flaws he wont be able to overcome

1) poor mechanics, both in terms of throwing itself and footwork
2) no ability to play from a traditonal offense under center
3) limited ability to throw downfield, only an average arm at best
4) played in a very basic, option style offense no NFL team uses
5) played on a team that overmatched virtually every opponent badly in terms of talent on the field, results were grossly inflated passing stats not truly indicative of his ability
6) like Michael Vick, his best plays are almost all running plays

great college player, but destined to be a major flop in the NFL

David

 

[StonetheCrow77]

ya, they over matched every team in talent... USC and Ohio State were totally talentless... his mechanics were so bad, his accuracy suffered at 65.2%... his arm so weak, that he only threw a pass over 20 yards every single game (8 of those games with passes over 40 yards)...



by the way, did any one take a second to look at the WRs he was working with this year? And his stats improved... he spread the ball effectively to 7 different receivers...

if you want to knock Young... you knock him about the style of offense he ran... shot gun, modified option... yes... if you think he can't handle the conversion mentally, I can see that... but, to knock him any way physically, be it running or passing... you have a holes in your logic...

 

[dbair1967]

ya, they over matched every team in talent... USC and Ohio State were totally talentless... his mechanics were so bad, his accuracy suffered at 65.2%... his arm so weak, that he only threw a pass over 20 yards every single game (8 of those games with passes over 40 yards)...



by the way, did any one take a second to look at the WRs he was working with this year? And his stats improved... he spread the ball effectively to 7 different receivers...

if you want to knock Young... you knock him about the style of offense he ran... shot gun, modified option... yes... if you think he can't handle the conversion mentally, I can see that... but, to knock him any way physically, be it running or passing... you have a holes in your logic...

the evidence is all there to back up what I said about him...average arm, limited downfield passing ability, rarely if ever had to hit WR's on the run..

and sure, you can look at USC and Ohio St...thats two games....the rest of this years schedule was pretty weak and his conference was medicore at best...same thing last yr

David

 

[StonetheCrow77]

the evidence is all there to back up what I said about him...average arm, limited downfield passing ability, rarely if ever had to hit WR's on the run..

and sure, you can look at USC and Ohio St...thats two games....the rest of this years schedule was pretty weak and his conference was medicore at best...same thing last yr

David

if the evidence is there, why did Young defy that every game? you truly believe that the proof he laid down on the field is not as sound as your beliefs? If so, you shouldn't be on a message board, you should be a Pro... go get you a scouting job and educate us the right way...

 

[BHendri5]

sure I watched him enough...and he cant escape what I see are the flaws he wont be able to overcome

1) poor mechanics, both in terms of throwing itself and footwork
2) no ability to play from a traditonal offense under center
3) limited ability to throw downfield, only an average arm at best
4) played in a very basic, option style offense no NFL team uses
5) played on a team that overmatched virtually every opponent badly in terms of talent on the field, results were grossly inflated passing stats not truly indicative of his ability
6) like Michael Vick, his best plays are almost all running plays

great college player, but destined to be a major flop in the NFL

David

Thank You, thank you very much. I too have watched Young, in fact I watched him play every game since he arrived at UT, I live in Austin. Everything that you stated about VY, is true, and in my opinion the only way he shines as an NFL star is from the WR position.

 

[Novacek84]

I'm not sure why everybody loves Cutler so much. What has he done? I live in the Northeast and the Jets seem to love him. (Which is why they're the Jets) As for Young, I see him as a similar player to McNair and if he is and you have a chance to go get him you do it and don't worry about the possible downside. He's a big player and I think he'll be fine as a pro. If he drops, I'd consider trading up if I'm Jerry & Bill. Bledsoe ain't gonna last forever and they don't seem to believe in Henson so where is our future QB? I've said it before and I'll say it again- Parcells needs to leave us with a concrete future at QB when he is ready to leave. If he doesn't then I say his tenure here was a failure (unless he wins a Super Bowl). He left the Jets with Pennington who was just fine until he was injured. I expected him to implement a similar plan while here and so far all he's given us is Henson who he had no confidence in playing despite a 5-7 record in 2004. If Young drops, go get him. I think he'll be a big NFL winner.

 

[StonetheCrow77]

Thank You, thank you very much. I too have watched Young, in fact I watched him play every game since he arrived at UT, I live in Austin. Everything that you stated about VY, is true, and in my opinion the only way he shines as an NFL star is from the WR position.

Another Pro... people... quit confusing your opinions with facts... you have no idea how he WILL do, but you continue to say that's how it'll be... come on, your a fan... it's all speculation...

 

[phammac18]

I wouldn't trade up for Vince Young but I would for Cutler. Will be a better QB down the road. Vince Young has Michael Vick written all over him.

Vince Young will be a star or bust depending on how he's handled in the NFL. If they let Him play his style of game then he will do well. If they try and turn him into a pure pocket-passer, he will fail.

 

[phammac18]

sure I watched him enough...and he cant escape what I see are the flaws he wont be able to overcome

1) poor mechanics, both in terms of throwing itself and footwork
2) no ability to play from a traditonal offense under center
3) limited ability to throw downfield, only an average arm at best
4) played in a very basic, option style offense no NFL team uses
5) played on a team that overmatched virtually every opponent badly in terms of talent on the field, results were grossly inflated passing stats not truly indicative of his ability
6) like Michael Vick, his best plays are almost all running plays

great college player, but destined to be a major flop in the NFL

David

I may be new to the board, but I do not believe you have watched VY enough.

1. Yes, he has a side-arm motion but he's 6'5" and puts the ball where it needs to be. Besides, not every NFL QB has a "perfect" throwing motion.
2. This is really the only legit concern in my opinion
3. Weak arm? You must be drunk! His first college pass was a completion for like 60 yards.
4.No, he didn't run the Colts offense in college. But it wasn't the Wing-T. He can learn and make all the throws he needs to in the NFL.
5. If this is a real concern then the same thing needs to be said about every player from USC. VY did what he was supposed to do...spanked every weak team he played against.
6. You simply have not watched enough of VY. He made many great throws this year and has really grown as a passer. (Ask OSU,OU,CU,& USC if he can throw.)

Yes, I am a Longhorn homer. No, I'm not just looking at it with orange-tinted glasses. The unorthodoxed style of offense and wether he can make the change is a concern. But if whoever gets him lets Vince be Vince then he'll be great IMO.

 

[kartr]

Unconventional as he is, Vick has won a lot of games including a couple of playoff games. He's got two young potential stud WR's in Jenkins and White so I think the best is yet to come from Vick.

I agree completely,also Vick doesn't have a good pass blocking OL. When that changes and they stick with one offense, he'll be much better. He did have some good passing games last year, so it's not without precedent.

 

[kartr]

If you want Brady Quinn, you better be rooting for a 2-14 kind of year, because that is the only way Dallas gets a shot at Brady Quinn.

Agreed, plus we don't know if Quinn will have the same success next year as last year.

 

[silver]

*** are you thinking? This thread has NOTHING to do with TO!!! ****!!!

:laugh2: who does TO want at 18 shoud be the question.

 

[Pokes28]

Cutler... Tell me the last time a great pro QB wasn't good enough to at least take his college team to a bowl game? I don't believe it has happened in the last 20-30 years. The college game is one that a QB that has pro talent will elevate his team to at least win 6 games.

Young... Perhaps the QB under the biggest microscope. This is 100% my opinion, but I do have a pretty darn good track record when it comes to QB analysis for the pros (totally missed on Harrington, but that is another story). Young has a lot of things that are positives.

He's played big time football in front of big crowds in pressure situations and shined.
He has strong leadership skills
He's the perfect size/weight for the position
Amazing runner

Things that I'm not sold on. His ability to see the field and read a defense. These are both critical. At Texas his read system was similar to the read system that Dallas put in place for Quincy when it was obvious that he couldn't scan the entire field. He read one quadrant where there were two or three receivers at various depths. If they weren't open, tuck it and run. You simply can't be successful doing that in the NFL and I have my doubts if he will be able to get where he needs to go. I also think that his emotional manner will work against him at least in the beginning. He's got a lot of heart, but QBs tend to not be firey outspoken guys. Yes there is Brett Favre who breaks a lot of the norms in being a great NFL QB, but odds aren't with anybody that can let their emotions get away from them. One emotional outburst at the wrong time and a QB will never recover from negative labels (see Ryan Leaf). We also have no clue how Young will be able to play in a normal NFL situation where a QB has to be rid of the ball in less than 4 seconds or be dog food. He had all day most of the time at Texas. There aren't many teams in the NFL that can provide that kind of time.

I don't put a ton into the arm-strength argument pro or con. I've seen Chad Pennington (a weak armed QB) throw the ball 50+ yards. He just can't throw it that far on a rope. Elway was perhaps the strongest armed QB of the modern era, but until he had a tendon problem in his throwing arm, he had trouble adjusting down to dump off passes. So arm strength is one thing that tends to be over-rated in my view. Accuracy however is not. I watched a lot of Texas games and I do have doubts about his ability to be pin-point with his passes. He rarely had to squeeze a ball into a tight spot. His receivers always seemed to be a full step open. In the NFL, half a body is the norm on short to middle passes. If a QB can't squeeze it into a small window, he's not going to be successful. I'm not saying VY can't do it, I just haven't seen him do it enough to list that is a strength.

To me it boils down to percentages for failure. Yes, there is the chance that VY could become the most dominating player in the NFL. But there is a more likely chance that one of these concerns that I've brought up (and there only has to be one) end up on the negative end. Just one means the differnece between a great QB, an OK QB, a sideshow QB (like Vick), or a bust. Anybody that argues that VY is a lock or has a great chance at greatness is putting too much credit on his college results and not enough on his manner of play.

Every year I rate players that have a high bust potential. This year, VY has to be at the top of that list. That is no guarantee that he will not be a great pro, simply that he has more things that he has to overcome to achieve greatness.

David Harrell - Pokes
dwh

 

[Derinyar]

I still think the problem with Young is very simple. Hes either going to be a great pro player, or hes going to be a bust. I don't see him having any possible midground.

Leinart I think has midground, ie even if he doesn't become a top QB he will probably still be a decent QB.

Cutler is probably more in the mode of Young in that he either has to make some jumps or fail, but Cutler has a couple of things going for him. They are a more traditional offense in college and is probably going to be a better bet to really get the full playbook down quick.

Whats the first thing everyone talks about with Young, his legs. That to me is a problem. You never hear about his passing abilities or his ability to read a defense. Its always something like hes an amazing runner or great physical talents. That bothers me, the main job of a QB is to pass the football.

 

[kartr]

I still think the problem with Young is very simple. Hes either going to be a great pro player, or hes going to be a bust. I don't see him having any possible midground.

Leinart I think has midground, ie even if he doesn't become a top QB he will probably still be a decent QB.

Cutler is probably more in the mode of Young in that he either has to make some jumps or fail, but Cutler has a couple of things going for him. They are a more traditional offense in college and is probably going to be a better bet to really get the full playbook down quick.

Whats the first thing everyone talks about with Young, his legs. That to me is a problem. You never hear about his passing abilities or his ability to read a defense. Its always something like hes an amazing runner or great physical talents. That bothers me, the main job of a QB is to pass the football.

Young had the best passing efficiency of all the top qb's last year, yet his critics talk about his legs, that bothers me, cause it shows that they can't be objective. Whatever deficits there are in Young's game,reading defenses is the least of his worries, that comes with time. His main worries are if he goes to a team that will put a decent supporting cast around him and give him adequate time to develop(2-3 years in one system). Vince's hype is based on his production and leading a team to a National Championship win. Cutler's is hype is based solely on potential(physical attributes). He has a high int rate cause he makes poor decisions and throws the deep ball poorly. His leadership skills are also poor and he doesn't make his team better. Vince lifted a team with pedestrian 'skill players' to a National Championship win over the 2 time defending National Champs in their backyard. Nuff said.

 

[wick]

Young is much closer to Ben Roethlisberger than to Michael Vick.

 

[Derinyar]

Young had the best passing efficiency of all the top qb's last year, yet his critics talk about his legs, that bothers me, cause it shows that they can't be objective. Whatever deficits there are in Young's game,reading defenses is the least of his worries, that comes with time. His main worries are if he goes to a team that will put a decent supporting cast around him and give him adequate time to develop(2-3 years in one system). Vince's hype is based on his production and leading a team to a National Championship win. Cutler's is hype is based solely on potential(physical attributes). He has a high int rate cause he makes poor decisions and throws the deep ball poorly. His leadership skills are also poor and he doesn't make his team better. Vince lifted a team with pedestrian 'skill players' to a National Championship win over the 2 time defending National Champs in their backyard. Nuff said.

I think its sorta funny that you use my post as your quote and basically address nothing in there other than to gloss over it. Also, your incorrect on your assertion that its only detractors that discuss Youngs legs/athletic ability. In fact I would make the claim that his supporters lean on that more than his detractors decry it.

The offense Young was in had a lot to do with his accuracy last year. Thats good for UT and their Championship, but honestly doesn't have much to do with his ability to be a top teir NFL QB. That type of offense is unlikely to be a big player in his NFL career. To be objective about his passing abilities I think we have to discuss things like only having to read one side of the field, ie the Quincy offense. And that gets into reading defenses, simplifing his reads last year was good for him and for the offense, but likely will worry NFL teams. College offenses are usually much simpler than NFL offenses, and Young had to have his college offense simplified for him. Reading Defenses is what makes the difference between a Peyton Manning and a Trent Dilfer, ie a very good QB and a middle of the road QB.

As far as Cutler you have to realize that his INT rate is acutally much lower than Youngs. Young was averaging 1/32 attempts, where Cuttler was averaging 1/51 attempts. Young's numbers should look better than Cuttler's. Young was on a good team with a lot of talent around him. His WR's, while below par for Texas's talent pool, would likely have been the best players other than Cuttler on Vandy. Texas is probably going to put 4-5 players into the NFL on offense Day 1 this year; Vandy probably won't put anyone other than Cuttler into the NFL this year. Texas doesn't have "pedestrian" players at virtually any position, and to say otherwise is idiotic. How many other teams in even the Big 12 would have liked having Texas's WR corps, or at least a player off of it? The TE is likely a day one pick. Basically you give Young credit for taking one of the two or three most talented teams in the NCAA to the house and dog Cuttler for being on one of the least talented Division I teams. Vince Young didn't single handedly lift UT to a national title this year, he had a big part in it for sure, but it definately wasn't Atlas putting the world on his shoulders.

I stand by my earlier statments and basically say that both Young and Cuttler have a way to go to be successful NFL QB's, much further than Leinart. They both have signinficant questions and those will only be answered by time.

 

[Derinyar]

Young is much closer to Ben Roethlisberger than to Michael Vick.

If your talking about the number of throws per game from last year I'll agree. I'm not ready to call any QB coming out of this draft anywhere near Big Ben yet. Hes definately not in a throwing heavy offense, but he runs it exceptionally well, something I will wait to see any of the QB's in this draft do at the NFL level before I put their names near any highly successful NFL QB.

 

[kartr]

I think its sorta funny that you use my post as your quote and basically address nothing in there other than to gloss over it. Also, your incorrect on your assertion that its only detractors that discuss Youngs legs/athletic ability. In fact I would make the claim that his supporters lean on that more than his detractors decry it.

The offense Young was in had a lot to do with his accuracy last year. Thats good for UT and their Championship, but honestly doesn't have much to do with his ability to be a top teir NFL QB. That type of offense is unlikely to be a big player in his NFL career. To be objective about his passing abilities I think we have to discuss things like only having to read one side of the field, ie the Quincy offense. And that gets into reading defenses, simplifing his reads last year was good for him and for the offense, but likely will worry NFL teams. College offenses are usually much simpler than NFL offenses, and Young had to have his college offense simplified for him. Reading Defenses is what makes the difference between a Peyton Manning and a Trent Dilfer, ie a very good QB and a middle of the road QB.

As far as Cutler you have to realize that his INT rate is acutally much lower than Youngs. Young was averaging 1/32 attempts, where Cuttler was averaging 1/51 attempts. Young's numbers should look better than Cuttler's. Young was on a good team with a lot of talent around him. His WR's, while below par for Texas's talent pool, would likely have been the best players other than Cuttler on Vandy. Texas is probably going to put 4-5 players into the NFL on offense Day 1 this year; Vandy probably won't put anyone other than Cuttler into the NFL this year. Texas doesn't have "pedestrian" players at virtually any position, and to say otherwise is idiotic. How many other teams in even the Big 12 would have liked having Texas's WR corps, or at least a player off of it? The TE is likely a day one pick. Basically you give Young credit for taking one of the two or three most talented teams in the NCAA to the house and dog Cuttler for being on one of the least talented Division I teams. Vince Young didn't single handedly lift UT to a national title this year, he had a big part in it for sure, but it definately wasn't Atlas putting the world on his shoulders.

I stand by my earlier statments and basically say that both Young and Cuttler have a way to go to be successful NFL QB's, much further than Leinart. They both have signinficant questions and those will only be answered by time.

You're comparing the supporting casts of Vanderbilt to Texas, I'm comparing the talent of U.T. to Southern Cal, which is pretty close. Young was the leading rusher(200 yards) and passer(267 yards). He had no Heisman back such as Bush and no first round back such as Lendale White. Leinart had the better TE and WR's, yet Young put up monster numbers that rivaled Leinart and his more talented team. If Young can put those numbers with his college team,imagine what he could put up with Julius Jones,Terry Glenn and TO and Jason Witten. As for the style of offense he played in, the best offense to play in is a simple one,you know like the one we had when Aikman and Smith and Irvin played here. Even Bill Walsh said that complicated offenses confuse offensive players. The Patriots offense is much more simple than the one the Colts play in, yet who has the rings. Charlie Wiess even said that Brady only has 2 reads when he comes to the line of scrimmage,unlike Peyton Manning. So much for complicated offenses being better.

 

[Derinyar]

You're comparing the supporting casts of Vanderbilt to Texas, I'm comparing the talent of U.T. to Southern Cal, which is pretty close. Young was the leading rusher(200 yards) and passer(267 yards). He had no Heisman back such as Bush and no first round back such as Lendale White. Leinart had the better TE and WR's, yet Young put up monster numbers that rivaled Leinart and his more talented team. If Young can put those numbers with his college team,imagine what he could put up with Julius Jones,Terry Glenn and TO and Jason Witten. As for the style of offense he played in, the best offense to play in is a simple one,you know like the one we had when Aikman and Smith and Irvin played here. Even Bill Walsh said that complicated offenses confuse offensive players. The Patriots offense is much more simple than the one the Colts play in, yet who has the rings. Charlie Wiess even said that Brady only has 2 reads when he comes to the line of scrimmage,unlike Peyton Manning. So much for complicated offenses being better.

Your comparing that sandlot offense that Texas ran last year to what we ran in the Early 90's? I did just read that? Any offense in which the QB, after the snap, only looks at half the field isn't going to succeed in the NFL, at least not for long, see the offense we ran with Quincy that got less successful as the year went on.

You were calling UT's skill position players pedestrian in the middle of your argument between Cutler and Young, therefore any logical human would consider those statments to be directed toward that discussion. This is especially likely as you never mentioned Leinart directly in your entire post.

I suspect Vince Youngs numbers here in Dallas for 2-3 years would be bad enough that everyone would want him run out of town. We are not running any form of an offense he could be successful in, and aren't likely to while Parcells is here. Frankly, I think Young here in Dallas would be a disaster waiting to happen. Cuttler or Leinart would be a much better immedate fit here, but I don't think we are drafting a QB anyway.

What Vince Youngs passing leadership of the Longhorns says in the Rose Bowl game is meaningless. His rushing stats says either he wasn't seeing the players to throw too or he was tucking the ball and running a lot because they weren't open. Not sure which was the case, and I doubt anyone who wasn't at the game is. The RB's yes the USC backs were better, but they also got more carries, their YPA wasn't that different. I think that says something as the Big 12 is a better defensive conference than the Pac 10, at least in my esitmation.