Defensive Holding Penalt\y Yardage Tacked on

[conner01]

Rules of the game they have to compensate you for the penalty

Most do but not all. PI doesn’t, you have to take the play or the penalty. I get why they add on a run since the hold could effect the yardage gained on the run

 

[Proof]

Yes but if you have a successful play you add that on to it decline it. Same when a DL goes off sides and it's a FREE PLAY you get yards, good, then you add on the penalty

that's just not true lol.

 

[CanadianCowboysFan]

yeah seems like an odd rule to me.
You could complete a 30 yard pass and get an extra 5 yards because of holding.

only on runs iirc

 

[Proof]

Right? How does one claim to be right while asking a question?

because it's the genesis of the confusion and the question? obviously he saw the application and that's what sparked the question / discussion.

also for what it's worth, I didn't see any additional information re: running play holding. maybe @MarcusRock can clarify.

ARTICLE 6. DEFENSIVE HOLDING​

It is a foul for defensive holding if:

1. a defensive player tackles or holds any opponent other than a runner, except as permitted in Article 5.
   Note: Any offensive player who pretends to possess the ball, and/or one to whom a teammate pretends to give the ball, may be tackled until he crosses the line of scrimmage between the tackles of a normal tight offensive line.

1. during a punt, field goal attempt, or Try-kick attempt, B1 grabs and pulls an offensive player out of the way, allowing B2 to shoot the gap (pull-and-shoot) in an attempt to block an apparent kick, except if B1 is advancing toward the kicker.

Penalty: For defensive holding: Loss of five yards and an automatic first down.

 

[Runwildboys]

because it's the genesis of the confusion and the question? obviously he saw the application and that's what sparked the question / discussion.

also for what it's worth, I didn't see any additional information re: running play holding. maybe @MarcusRock can clarify.

ARTICLE 6. DEFENSIVE HOLDING​

It is a foul for defensive holding if:

1. a defensive player tackles or holds any opponent other than a runner, except as permitted in Article 5.
   Note: Any offensive player who pretends to possess the ball, and/or one to whom a teammate pretends to give the ball, may be tackled until he crosses the line of scrimmage between the tackles of a normal tight offensive line.

1. during a punt, field goal attempt, or Try-kick attempt, B1 grabs and pulls an offensive player out of the way, allowing B2 to shoot the gap (pull-and-shoot) in an attempt to block an apparent kick, except if B1 is advancing toward the kicker.

Penalty: For defensive holding: Loss of five yards and an automatic first down.

I just did a quick scroll, but I didn't see anything regarding adding 15 yards "to the end of the play" in the personal foul section either.

 

[AbeBeta]

You want to add to the conversation or just be a D?

Maybe you can think before posting -- "gee, I thought the rules was this ... but they kept calling it differently in the game ... I must be right" -- just a basic exercise in logic bro

 

[MarcusRock]

because it's the genesis of the confusion and the question? obviously he saw the application and that's what sparked the question / discussion.

also for what it's worth, I didn't see any additional information re: running play holding. maybe @MarcusRock can clarify.

ARTICLE 6. DEFENSIVE HOLDING​

It is a foul for defensive holding if:

1. a defensive player tackles or holds any opponent other than a runner, except as permitted in Article 5.
   Note: Any offensive player who pretends to possess the ball, and/or one to whom a teammate pretends to give the ball, may be tackled until he crosses the line of scrimmage between the tackles of a normal tight offensive line.
2. during a punt, field goal attempt, or Try-kick attempt, B1 grabs and pulls an offensive player out of the way, allowing B2 to shoot the gap (pull-and-shoot) in an attempt to block an apparent kick, except if B1 is advancing toward the kicker.

Penalty: For defensive holding: Loss of five yards and an automatic first down.

The part that's pertinent here is the "and an automatic first down" piece for the penalty yardage which is what you get with personal fouls, unsportsmanlike conduct, roughing, etc. There are 2 fouls spelled out specifically for the defense this way (illegal use of hands by defense is the other, also 5 yards). It's yardage that has to be taken, similar to a roughing the passer call where the pass was complete AND they gained a first down but then have 15 yards added on to the end of the play. These are the only two 5-yard variety "automatic first down" penalties in the rulebook from what I can see (I don't have an Approved Rulings version for this season).

This is also why there's confusion when there is a 15-yard penalty vs. a 5-yard penalty that seem to offset but they ignore the 5-yarder because the 15-yarder has an "automatic first down" component but the 5-yarder does not. But if the 5-yarder is one of these above with an automatic first down component, then they do offset.

 

[Proof]

The part that's pertinent here is the "and an automatic first down" piece for the penalty yardage which is what you get with personal fouls, unsportsmanlike conduct, roughing, etc. There are 2 fouls spelled out specifically for the defense this way (illegal use of hands by defense is the other, also 5 yards). It's yardage that has to be taken, similar to a roughing the passer call where the pass was complete AND they gained a first down but then have 15 yards added on to the end of the play. These are the only two 5-yard variety "automatic first down" penalties in the rulebook from what I can see (I don't have an Approved Rulings version for this season).

This is also why there's confusion when there is a 15-yard penalty vs. a 5-yard penalty that seem to offset but they ignore the 5-yarder because the 15-yarder has an "automatic first down" component but the 5-yarder does not. But if the 5-yarder is one of these above with an automatic first down component, then they do offset.

thank you. so what’s that mean wrt tacking penalty yardage on to the end of a running play?

 

[MarcusRock]

thank you. so what’s that mean wrt tacking penalty yardage on to the end of a running play?

I don't think it's a running play only, but any play. Same for a 15-yarder with an automatic component. They work exactly the same except only against the defense for those two fouls. It probably mostly happens on running plays which is why you've heard "added onto the end of the run" but it's yardage that's tacked on regardless.

 

[Proof]

I don't think it's a running play only, but any play. Same for a 15-yarder with an automatic component. They work exactly the same except only against the defense for those two fouls. It probably mostly happens on running plays which is why you've heard "added onto the end of the run" but it's yardage that's tacked on regardless.

Sorry, I don't mean to belabor the point, but I'm still confused. What yardage would be added on to the end of the run (or play in general) just the yardage that gives them a first down? or..? Give a scenario please for how a holding play would unfold where there was positive yardage gained. Please

 

[MarcusRock]

Sorry, I don't mean to belabor the point, but I'm still confused. What yardage would be added on to the end of the run (or play in general) just the yardage that gives them a first down? or..? Give a scenario please for how a holding play would unfold where there was positive yardage gained. Please

Yeah, no worries and I think I misspoke on the running play only. That part might be accurate (see below). The 5 yards AND an automatic first down piece means you get a first down IF you didn't make it on the play. So if you run 3 yards on 1st and 10 from your 20, you get the 3 yards plus the 5 yard penalty to take you to the 28 and then it's 1st and 10 again (automatic first down). But if you're on the 20 and run 12 yards to the 32 and get a defensive holding, you get the penalty tacked on and moved up to the 37 and it's 1st and 10 again.

RULE 14: PENALTY ENFORCEMENT​

SECTION 4 SPOTS OF ENFORCEMENT​

ARTICLE 2. FOUL COMMITTED DURING RUNNING PLAY. For a foul committed during a running play when there is not a​

subsequent change of possession during the down, the basic spot is the dead ball spot. The three-and-one method of enforcement​

is used (see Section 3, Article 6).​

Note: A foul during a run prior to a forward pass or kick from behind the line is enforced as a foul during a passing play or​

during a scrimmage kick.​

​

So based on this, if you are on the 20 and pass to get you to the 28 yard line, you get the result of the play and stay at the 28 for 2nd and 2 (decline the penalty) or get moved to the 25 and have 1st and 10. If you pass to get you to the 32 yard line, you get the result of the play and can decline the defensive holding and take your 12 yards or take the penalty and get 1st and 10 from the 25 (obviously you decline).

 

[Cowboys5217]

Maybe you can think before posting -- "gee, I thought the rules was this ... but they kept calling it differently in the game ... I must be right" -- just a basic exercise in logic bro

You are engaged in that right now, and you are being a D about it. You are mad at the OP and insulting him for asking a question that you have somehow straw manned into him stating he is "right". You got called on it so now you are doubling down on being a D.