Deion at it again

[Seven]

Oh, he should get to pick his own coaching staff, and who makes the team and who doesn't, but I don't think he should be able to override the work Tom Ciskowski does all year.

Agreed, CL. For all the right reasons.

 

[Randy White]

Shanahan had final say in Denver. Vermeil had final say in St. Louis. Belichick has final say in New England.

Shannahan didn't get GM powers until after Elway retired. Belichick always had this guy named Scott Pioli for all the Superbowls he's been to in New England, as for Vermeil, I don't know how much power did he truly have in terms of personnel in 1999 when Charlie Armey was brought in as Vice President of Player Personnel due to the awful 2 years he previously had.

It depends on the person making the call. Based on Garrett's backing of Brad Johnson, I would be inclined to say stick to coaching.

I don't mean it because of that. Everybody makes mistakes. The " great Jimmah Jenius " had to be convinced to take Emmitt Smith and took Steve Walsh with what turned out to be the #1 pick of the 1990 draft costing the Cowboys the great Junior Seau, so that's not here or there..

The thing is that JG doesn't need anymore work. Let the scouts do their jobs and he does his.

 

[Randy White]

Given the Cowboys' drafts of the last 5 years, I don't see how Ciskowski has work at all.

2010 - Dez Bryant, Sean Lee, Akwasi Owusu-Ansah, Sam Young, Sean Lissemore

2009 - Roy Williams, Jason Williams, Robert Brewster, Stephen McGee, Victor Butler, Brandon Williams, Mike Hamlin, David Buehler, John Phillips, Manuel Johnson.

2008 - Felix Jones, Mike Jenkins, Martelleous Bennett, Tashard Choice, Orland Scandrick, Erik Walden

2007 - Anthony Spencer, Isaiah Stanback, Doug Free, Nick Folk, Courtney Brown, Deon Anderson, Alan Ball

2006 - Bobby Carpenter, Anthony Fasano, Jason Hatcher, Pat Watkins, Montavious Stanley, Pat McQuistan


Wether they're with the Cowboys or not, that's a very impressive list of just drafted players who are still on NFL rosters, meaning his evaluations were correct. He recommends them but he doesn't coach or develops them.

 

[TNCowboy]

2010 - Dez Bryant, Sean Lee, Akwasi Owusu-Ansah, Sam Young, Sean Lissemore

2009 - Roy Williams, Jason Williams, Robert Brewster, Stephen McGee, Victor Butler, Brandon Williams, Mike Hamlin, David Buehler, John Phillips, Manuel Johnson.

2008 - Felix Jones, Mike Jenkins, Martelleous Bennett, Tashard Choice, Orland Scandrick, Erik Walden

2007 - Anthony Spencer, Isaiah Stanback, Doug Free, Nick Folk, Courtney Brown, Deon Anderson, Alan Ball

2006 - Bobby Carpenter, Anthony Fasano, Jason Hatcher, Pat Watkins, Montavious Stanley, Pat McQuistan


Wether they're with the Cowboys or not, that's a very impressive list of just drafted players who are still on NFL rosters, meaning his evaluations were correct. He recommends them but he doesn't coach or develops them.

5 starters out of 5 drafts. That's dreadful by anyone's standard.

You can take any teams' drafts and make a long list of guys who are still in the league. Still in the league is irrelevant for a guy like Bobby Carpenter (not that you can pin that pick on Ciskowski, since Ireland and Parcells were still here). Fact is, very few of those guys are making a significant impact in the league, and far fewer still are making a big impact for Dallas.

 

[big dog cowboy]

5 starters out of 5 drafts. That's dreadful by anyone's standard.

As I count thru that list, I come up with more than 5. And that isn't including the kickers.

 

[Randy White]

5 starters out of 5 drafts. That's dreadful by anyone's standard.

No it isn't. Especially for a team that has been in and out of contention, talent wise, since 2006.

You can take any teams' drafts and make a long list of guys who are still in the league

.

No, you can't.. Go ahead and try it. Most teams draft picks, since that time, are pretty much out of the league.

Still in the league is irrelevant for a guy like Bobby Carpenter (not that you can pin that pick on Ciskowski, since Ireland and Parcells were still here). Fact is, very few of those guys are making a significant impact in the league, and far fewer still are making a big impact for Dallas.

Well, go ahead and show which drafts have had " significant impacts " over the same time, according to YOUR standards.

 

[Plankton]

Shannahan didn't get GM powers until after Elway retired. Belichick always had this guy named Scott Pioli for all the Superbowls he's been to in New England, as for Vermeil, I don't know how much power did he truly have in terms of personnel in 1999 when Charlie Armey was brought in as Vice President of Player Personnel due to the awful 2 years he previously had.

Shanahan and Belichick had control from day one. Shanahan's title was head coach/executive vice president of football operations. Belichick hired Pioli to work for him (Pioli came with him from the Jets). Shanahan hired Ted Sundquist for a similar role in Denver.

The thing is that JG doesn't need anymore work. Let the scouts do their jobs and he does his.

Don't disagree at all with this.

 

[Randy White]

a taste of what you're going to find: The Green Bay Packers.

They've drafted 8 starters since 2006: Bulaga, B.J. Raji, Clay Matthews, Jermichael Finley, Desmond Bishop, A.J. Hawk, Greg Jennings, and Daryn Colledge. That's just 3 more starters in 5 years than the Cowboys " dreadful " drafts.

With a couple of exceptions here and there ( The Patriots might be one of them ), you're going to find that the Cowboys' rate is about the norm for most teams in the NFL. Some will have a few less, some will have a few more ( like the Packers ), depending on wether they've decide to rebuild completely during that time.

For the most part, if a team finds just ONE consistent starter in any draft, it's good enough. Rarely will teams find drafts that have 2 or 3 long term starters ( particularly in this free agency age ), much less finding multiple of such drafts.

 

[Randy White]

Shanahan and Belichick had control from day one. Shanahan's title was head coach/executive vice president of football operations. Belichick hired Pioli to work for him (Pioli came with him from the Jets). Shanahan hired Ted Sundquist for a similar role in Denver.
.

Good enough.. but you understand where I'm coming from.

 

[Plankton]

Good enough.. but you understand where I'm coming from.

Absolutely. I think Garrett should focus on the on-field operation, and assist in setting the prototype for the desired player that he wants at each position to aid in the scouting operation.

He shouldn't be selecting the players because he didn't scout them, and wouldn't be effectively knowledgeable enough to do so. I do think that this team needs a GM whose focus is the on-field product, and not conflicted by marketing and money making motivations. This is the biggest failing of the organization.

 

[theebs]

Absolutely. I think Garrett should focus on the on-field operation, and assist in setting the prototype for the desired player that he wants at each position to aid in the scouting operation.

He shouldn't be selecting the players because he didn't scout them, and wouldn't be effectively knowledgeable enough to do so. I do think that this team needs a GM whose focus is the on-field product, and not conflicted by marketing and money making motivations. This is the biggest failing of the organization.

where does this stuff start? Do people just read headlines or do they actually listen and pay attention.

He has already said he doesnt believe in one person doing it by themselves, he said after his pc last week that he believes it takes everybody together to make the right decisions.

Norv turner told josh lewin last week that garrett gets it and understands to be good you need to surround yourself with good people.

And his brother is the directo of pro personnel.

the draft and free agent process will be a a team thing.

Garrett is in charge of putting the team together at this point and seeting the groundwork for where he wants to go, how he wants to get there and what types of people he needs to get there....

 

[Randy White]

Absolutely. I think Garrett should focus on the on-field operation, and assist in setting the prototype for the desired player that he wants at each position to aid in the scouting operation.

He shouldn't be selecting the players because he didn't scout them, and wouldn't be effectively knowledgeable enough to do so. I do think that this team needs a GM whose focus is the on-field product, and not conflicted by marketing and money making motivations. This is the biggest failing of the organization.

 

[Randy White]

where does this stuff start? Do people just read headlines or do they actually listen and pay attention......

It's just a discussion. We all know JG will not have " the final say " on personnel, per say, or be a dicatator, and that's a good thing. He doesn't need anymore work.

Some folks, though, confuse the " there isn't anybody that's going to be on the roster without JG's approval " with " he's going to pick every player in the draft and free agency ".

 

[Plankton]

where does this stuff start? Do people just read headlines or do they actually listen and pay attention.

He has already said he doesnt believe in one person doing it by themselves, he said after his pc last week that he believes it takes everybody together to make the right decisions.

Norv turner told josh lewin last week that garrett gets it and understands to be good you need to surround yourself with good people.

And his brother is the directo of pro personnel.

the draft and free agent process will be a a team thing.

Garrett is in charge of putting the team together at this point and seeting the groundwork for where he wants to go, how he wants to get there and what types of people he needs to get there....

Take a breath - it was a discussion about head coaches having final say.

 

[Manwiththeplan]

I can.

Green was better and did it for longer in an extremely talented and tough division.

He did it for longer certainly, but how many times was Green DPOY? How many All-pros did Green have vrs Sanders?

And while the NFC east was a better division in the, he had a bi-annual meeting with a certain Jerry Rice while in the NFC west