Derrick Henry vs Ezekiel Elliott

[G2]

Well a few advanced statistical sites say the OL hasn't been nearly as bad as the pro-Zeke crowd wants to claim. Great OL play? No. Awful OL play? Yeah that's an overstatement too. At this point, the pro-Zeke crowd is just digging for any excuse they can.

An elite RB should be able to be much more effective behind a mediocre OL than Zeke is. And blaming the OL for the fact Zeke is loose with the football is weak too.

Lmao, no. The O line is a much more important factor than you know or are willing to admit.

 

[kskboys]

we have plenty of cap,


whoever this we do not are ignorant to the how the cap can be massaged i see it al around the league..KC paid everyone lol ive seen somehow team with under a million in cap space sign 4 players to new deals..dont assume you know what the deal is, again i said this Zekes deal is not effecting our cap use for future signing's.

let the pros handle money and business side of this

watch football

KC was able to pay Chris Jones strictly due to Mahomes taking a team friendly deal. Dak should pay attention.

 

[Playmaker3128]

Again seem literally Carried this team early in his career. It isn’t his fault once again hat this organization wasted the years he had in his prime.

I’m in the pro zeke crowd. I think he gets a lot of hate for no reason. Especially for a guy that was so important in helping Dak early in his career as well.

What concerns me about him? I don’t understand why he takes himself out of the game after every two runs... and also isn’t in on some of the most important drives of the game when we play.

 

[quickccc]

Emmitt was a different time and a different era. Further, it's not like ALL TBs fall off the map. Adrian Peterson somehow stayed really good despite getting older and Smith was similar. But that's rare. Gurley, David Johnson, Murray, etc. these guys all started to show decline way earlier than other positions.

And citing all those team that overpaid their TBs doesn't move me. I wouldn't have signed any of those guys to what they got. Well, I would have signed McCaffery but that's because McCaffery is a well more rounded player than Zeke. McCaffery can actually play in the slot, return kicks, etc. He caught over 100 passes in each of the last two seasons. But even now, how's that big contract working out considering he's now showing some signs of wear and tear himself, first having to sit out with a bad ankle and then later missing games this year due to a banged up shoulder?

Yep because McCaffrey, ..like the other big name backs you're mentioning in the " decline" group, ..is also showing concerns with durability issues as well.
Despite his catches, slot and return skills etc, he cannot be excluded from the RB decline group because he is showing wear and tear as well.

But would you have passed McCaffrey over at draft time … because you're worried about RB durability and wear and tear ?
Would you have turned away from re-signing him because you're worried or thought against RB durability and wear and tear ?

Because once he displays skill set and production, you're faced with franchise tagging him, re-signing him as a contract demand -high paid RB, or letting him go in FA
when his rookie contract is up.

 

[LACowboysFan1]

An elite RB should be able to be much more effective behind a mediocre OL than Zeke is.

Then following that logic an elite back behind a great o-line would rush for like 3,000 yards, because if he can make yards behind a poor line, which actually equates to not having many holes to run through, with holes every carry should be 10 yards or so.

Of course that's not the way it works. Let's put it this way - if an elite back gets a carry and there is a solid wall of defensive linemen in front of him, with DEs on either side, what is going to happen nearly every time? No gain, or a loss, in yardage. Don't care how elite the back, he needs an opening somewhere to run through, and too often Zeke can't even get to the los before he's met by a defender. NO back is going to do well in that case, not even Barry Sanders... But Zeke can at least get a few yards, the "dime a dozen" backs likely wouldn't be able to...

 

[kskboys]

Better to overpay a DB than a RB.

Disagree. It's the same thing.

 

[LACowboysFan1]

Again seem literally Carried this team early in his career. It isn’t his fault once again hat this organization wasted the years he had in his prime.

I’m in the pro zeke crowd. I think he gets a lot of hate for no reason. Especially for a guy that was so important in helping Dak early in his career as well.

What concerns me about him? I don’t understand why he takes himself out of the game after every two runs... and also isn’t in on some of the most important drives of the game when we play.

I wonder about that too, though if it keeps him from missing games due to injury it's worth it...

 

[quickccc]

Well a few advanced statistical sites say the OL hasn't been nearly as bad as the pro-Zeke crowd wants to claim. Great OL play? No. Awful OL play? Yeah that's an overstatement too. At this point, the pro-Zeke crowd is just digging for any excuse they can.

An elite RB should be able to be much more effective behind a mediocre OL than Zeke is. And blaming the OL for the fact Zeke is loose with the football is weak too.

- I agree with the fumbling issues. that's on Zeke himself and coaches/OL have no control over that.
Imo, his confidence and focus is that shot and he's not reacting well to that area.

- But with an elite RB making an mediocre OL better than what it is- i think it depends upon the skill set of each elite RB, and I can only think of two such big name backs.
if we see elite " elusive " runners like Barry Sanders or Saquon Barkley run successfully behind mediocre OL - they can get away with that on a frequent basis.

But I don't think Henry per his skill set, could do what he is doing ..behind an mediocre OL.
Sanders/Barkley have elite stop/re-start ability, .. Henry and Zeke don't have that.

- Can you please give me another RB example of elite backs successfully running behind an "mediocre" OL ?

 

[LACowboysFan1]

No but its a deeper OL..lol

Deep much of the time just means a lot of people, doesn't mean they're any good, necessarily....

 

[Sydla]

Lmao, no. The O line is a much more important factor than you know or are willing to admit.

Well for starters, nowhere have I acknowledged that the OL isn't a very important factor. It's the 2nd most important offensive factor behind the QB.

What I said is that if Zeke is truly an elite, upper echelon TB, then he should be more successful behind the mediocre OL we have than he has been.

What's truly funny here, is as pointed out by CalPoly earlier, is that you are actually undermining your own point here. The reason why guys like myself and CalPoly and others were against signing Elliott to a huge extension is what you just said. That the OL is a more important factor in the run game than a TB. But yet you are arguing out of both sides of your mouth, in one breath wanting everyone to acknowledge Elliott as a great TB worthy of his resigning but then turn around and say gee, a TB can only succeed with a really good OL.

You are proving our point.

 

[atlantacowboy]

This hasn't been a contest in 3 years. Zeke was the better prospect and had the faster start, but Henry has proven the better pro. I think it just boils down to one guy loves football/lives and breaths it.......and the other guy is lazy.

 

[Sydla]

- I agree with the fumbling issues. that's on Zeke himself and coaches/OL have no control over that.
Imo, his confidence and focus is that shot and he's not reacting well to that area.

- But with an elite RB making an mediocre OL better than what it is- i think it depends upon the skill set of each elite RB, and I can only think of two such big name backs.
if we see elite " elusive " runners like Barry Sanders or Saquon Barkley run successfully behind mediocre OL - they can get away with that on a frequent basis.

But I don't think Henry per his skill set, could do what he is doing ..behind an mediocre OL.
Sanders/Barkley have elite stop/re-start ability, .. Henry and Zeke don't have that.

- Can you please give me another RB example of elite backs successfully running behind an "mediocre" OL ?

If an elite TB can only succeed behind a good OL, then you probably shouldn't be paying a TB that kind of money since his production is directly tied to the OL, not his own skill set.

Is that what you guys are saying?

 

[quickccc]

Want 2016 Zeke version again ?
- Re-shape Zeke body to a lesser bulkier back (effort to regain explosiveness)
- Regain quality OL
- Improve better coaching scheme to the RBs
- Improve TE blocking on the edges- this why we’ll need Blake Bell more than Schultz as 2nd TE.

 

[Sydla]

Line stats from undroppables, they rank pass, run and combined overall. 29th before losing our 2nd set of tackles. They do a decent job with injury reports as well. There's a second source I'll find when I have time, but could be mistaken.

There's no way they're 7th or even middle of the pack.

Because you say so?

And what is undroppables? Good site? I like the stats based sits like Next Gen and Football Outsiders. Or are they more like PFF with their grades?

 

[LACowboysFan1]

- I agree with the fumbling issues. that's on Zeke himself and coaches/OL have no control over that.
Imo, his confidence and focus is that shot and he's not reacting well to that area.

- But with an elite RB making an mediocre OL better than what it is- i think it depends upon the skill set of each elite RB, and I can only think of two such big name backs.
if we see elite " elusive " runners like Barry Sanders or Saquon Barkley run successfully behind mediocre OL - they can get away with that on a frequent basis.

But I don't think Henry per his skill set, could do what he is doing ..behind an mediocre OL.
Sanders/Barkley have elite stop/re-start ability, .. Henry and Zeke don't have that.

- Can you please give me another RB example of elite backs successfully running behind an "mediocre" OL ?

So an elite back should be able to get yards behind a poor line, as some say, right?

So Derrick Henry goes 25 carries for 84 yards against Jacksonville, 19 for 57 against Buffalo, and 21 for 68 against Chicago. Why didn't he go for 178 yards like he just did, against a top defense? If he's really elite, and shouldn't need a good line?

Because in the 3 games mentioned just maybe those teams keyed on Henry, and made stopping him their priority? Gee, maybe teams do that against Zeke most of the time? Why not, with Dalton or Denucci or Gilbert at quarteback?

It's not as simple as "if he's elite he should do well"....

 

[quickccc]

If an elite TB can only succeed behind a good OL, then you probably shouldn't be paying a TB that kind of money since his production is directly tied to the OL, not his own skill set.

Is that what you guys are saying?

But if that RB has had the chance to show you how much/how big of a production he can give you, then you would think you'd do everything within your power to
give him as much support cast as possible to keep that structure around him to better the team and keep bringing that level and skill set against opposing teams.

Zeke has done that - he had a resume. You've seen him at his best and highest level and how he has impacted the game.
Zeke was made the highest paid RB, based off what he did his first 3 years.
Team thought Zeke was at the time of his signing, what Titans thought Henry was at his re-signing.

 

[Sydla]

How much are we under the cap?

$27 million under the cap now, which will get rolled into 2021. If you go by Over the Cap's projection that the salary cap next year will be $176 million, the Cowboys would have around $28 million in cap space for 2021. Note, that doesn't include Dak. So if he's tagged at $37 million, we are over the cap (based on the projected cap of $176 million for the league).

Now if the cap comes in at $198 million which it was this year, the Cowboys would have $50 million in space. But again, if they tag Dak, that leaves only $13 million in space. If they sign him, his first year cap hit could be say, $20-23MM. So using $20 million, that leaves $30 million but there are a lot of holes - secondary needs a total overhaul. You have to figure out what to do with Aldon Smith. You could restructure some deals but do people want to restructure Elliott and kick more money on him into the future?

The reality is the Cowboys will likely be fringe players in FA in 2021. They simply won't have the cap space to go and grab a bunch of upper tier FAs.

 

[Sydla]

Yep because McCaffrey, ..like the other big name backs you're mentioning in the " decline" group, ..is also showing concerns with durability issues as well.
Despite his catches, slot and return skills etc, he cannot be excluded from the RB decline group because he is showing wear and tear as well.

But would you have passed McCaffrey over at draft time … because you're worried about RB durability and wear and tear ?
Would you have turned away from re-signing him because you're worried or thought against RB durability and wear and tear ?

Because once he displays skill set and production, you're faced with franchise tagging him, re-signing him as a contract demand -high paid RB, or letting him go in FA
when his rookie contract is up.

McCaffery is an interesting case. Normally, I am against signing any TB to a huge deal but he's a unique player that can play in the slot as a WR and be very effective. He's a way more multi-dimensional offensive player than Elliott or Henry or even Mixon.

I guess a better way to put it is this way. If the Cowboys had McCaffery, it wouldn't bother me as much if we had signed him long term as opposed to Elliott or Henry.

 

[G2]

Not talking about any 2nd contracts, just the rookie ones.

The real question is would Henry have been as effective as Elliott was in his rookie season? That offense ran through the RB and was the main reason they had such a good season and the QB had such a great rookie season.

I bet he misses those hogs up front.

 

[quickccc]

If an elite TB can only succeed behind a good OL, then you probably shouldn't be paying a TB that kind of money since his production is directly tied to the OL, not his own skill set.

Is that what you guys are saying?

Besides the puzzling current fumbling issues, my concern with Zeke clearly is, we're just not seeing the burst and breakaway speed of the 2016 version.
- That's why he was drafted 4th overall.
-That's why we thought we should be getting Adrian Peterson like big plays and skill set into this offense.
-That's why we wanted to add explosiveness/run ball control to Tony Romo offense at the time.

If we're seeing backup Tony Pollard pulling off 20 and 40 yard burst-splash runs and home run TDs,.. then we should also be seeing Zeke 4th overall/among highest paid backs also
having his own fair share of 20 and 40 yard burst-splash runs too.