Did I see the 4-3 on passing downs ??

[Jarv]

Did I see the 4-3 on passing downs ??

I saw the Game late Sat. night in CT here (Thank you NFL network and channel 213). I haven't re-watched the tape yet, so I may be wrong, it has happened before....But I thought I saw the 4-3 being used, or at least 4 down linemen on passing downs ? Maybe Ware or another LB lined up in a 3 point stance ?

Now, I thought the 4-3 was better against the run and the 3-4 against the pass because you can blitz from sooo many spots. So why would we use the 3-4 on the running (1st down) and the 4-3 on passing downs ?

Why were we doing that ? Could that have contributed to the fact that we had a poor pass rush...A BP setup maybe ?

 

[Rush 2112]

Most 3-4 teams use a 4 man line in the nickel.

Simple as that.

 

[Jarv]

Most 3-4 teams use a 4 man line in the nickel.

Simple as that.

How does that help disguise the blitz then ?

 

[jterrell]

How does that help disguise the blitz then ?

They go 4-2-5 with Ware our OLB moving up to a DE position. So its really just a 3-3-5 same as moving RW up to the box just puts 8 men in the box but doesn't change us to a 4-4.

It disguises the blitz same way it did prior to the move: You have 5 DBs, 2 LBs to cover at most 6 receivers so 1 more is probably coming. That 1 can be any DB or LB. You can zone blitz and drop a DE and blitz from elsewhere also.

When we go nickel we don't send an extra DE onto the field we pull a LB and replace him with a DB. Its a 1 man sub.

 

[ravidubey]

BP said we'll go 4-2-5 -- that's our $.05 about 50% of the time overall. If we play a base 4-3 at all that means a lot less 3-4 then people have been screaming about.

 

[dougonthebench]

Most 3-4 teams use a 4 man line in the nickel.

Simple as that.

exactly right.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

BP said we'll go 4-2-5 -- that's our $.05 about 50% of the time overall. If we play a base 4-3 at all that means a lot less 3-4 then people have been screaming about.

Exactly right.

That's why Nors isn't posting as much... the 3-4 won't be used anywhere near as often as he thinks.

Plus his hero QB looked like crap so that helps.

 

[blindzebra]

We used 3-4 as base, 4-2-5 a lot, and 4-3 with Ware at OLB in short yardage.

It will be interesting to see what we do when Fergy and Spears come back.

We used Glover, Carson, Ratliff, Pepper, Canty, and Van Hoy at DT during the game, and all but Canty played DT in the 3-4.

 

[jlust22]

Parcells said at the PC today that they will be in their nickel defense 33-40% of the time. He said he is still debating how much 3-4 vs. 4-3 they will be playing the rest of the time. He said he is not sure if it will be 30-30, 50-10, 40-20, it's just a matter of what works best in regards to player deployment.

 

[Rack]

You have 5 DBs, 2 LBs to cover at most 6 receivers

That's impossible unless the QB is throwing the ball to himself.

11 players on offense. 5 of them are offensive linemen. That leaves 6. 1 of those 6 is the QB. So the most they'd have to cover is 5, again, unless the QB is throwing passes to himself.

 

[playit12]

One minor adjustment... It sounds like our nickel 4-3 is actually just the same 'over center' 'over tackle' alignment for the front 3 with our rush linebacker being moved to probably a 7 technique as a full time rusher. There is really no point in disguising the rush from the rush backer as you are certainly not going to put him back on coverage in a nickle situation.

So I really don't see much of a difference. This is certainly not a 4-3 alignment as the front four are not playing gaps.

I haven't seen the cards game yet, can anyone tell me if this is infact what we run for the nickle?

 

[Rack]

We do not have a "Nickel 4-3". The nickel is one defense and the 4-3 is another. When we go out in our 3-3-5 we aren't running a 3-4 either.

 

[playit12]

We do not have a "Nickel 4-3". The nickel is one defense and the 4-3 is another. When we go out in our 3-3-5 we aren't running a 3-4 either.

If that was in response to my post, I know it's not really a 4-3... But the nickel is generally based upon either the 4-3 or the 3-4 in the sense that you either are running one gap defenders or two gap defenders along the front line.

We use 4 down linemen for our Nickel defence, but I don't think we are using one gap schemes... instead we are basically running a 3 man front (a la 3-4) but moving our rush linebacker onto the line as a 7 technique (sort of like Freeney).

Perhaps someone that watched the game can tell me if this is right, but it seems to be what Parcells was saying... and it makes a lot of sense... much less for our rookie starters to learn.

 

[jterrell]

If that was in response to my post, I know it's not really a 4-3... But the nickel is generally based upon either the 4-3 or the 3-4 in the sense that you either are running one gap defenders or two gap defenders along the front line.

We use 4 down linemen for our Nickel defence, but I don't think we are using one gap schemes... instead we are basically running a 3 man front (a la 3-4) but moving our rush linebacker onto the line as a 7 technique (sort of like Freeney).

Perhaps someone that watched the game can tell me if this is right, but it seems to be what Parcells was saying... and it makes a lot of sense... much less for our rookie starters to learn.

Parcells answered this today in his press conference saying his nickel has the same principles as the 3-4 with only one player changing. He wanted it to be easy for the players to adjust from 3-4 to nickel.

If Ware is at DE it's not our 4-3 because he plays OLB.
If we don't have 4 LB's we aren't playing a 3-4.

Our best defense will probably be the nickel if our Cbs stay healthy because they are so good.

 

[jterrell]

That's impossible unless the QB is throwing the ball to himself.

11 players on offense. 5 of them are offensive linemen. That leaves 6. 1 of those 6 is the QB. So the most they'd have to cover is 5, again, unless the QB is throwing passes to himself.

You do have to account for the QB as an eligible Receiver. 5 guys are ineligible 6 are eligible. Some teams direct snap to RBs and others have the Qb go out for patterns as Brees did last season.

 

[playit12]

Parcells answered this today in his press conference saying his nickel has the same principles as the 3-4 with only one player changing. He wanted it to be easy for the players to adjust from 3-4 to nickel.

If Ware is at DE it's not our 4-3 because he plays OLB.
If we don't have 4 LB's we aren't playing a 3-4.

Our best defense will probably be the nickel if our Cbs stay healthy because they are so good.

Yeah I heard that today as well.. was just curious to see if it was used like that in the game. I've not heard of many teams using a 4 man front with guys in 0 tech, and 5 tech. I thought the Pats for instance just use three down linemen in their nickle D.

Also, I'd be surprised if BP didn't consider using Ware as the 4th down lineman in the Nickel D. That certainly seems to be almost identical to his rush linebacker role, although with less run responsibilities. Also he's probably our best speed rusher on the team, and if you are playing out in the 7 tech, then you'd need some serious speed out there.

And I wouldn't focus too much on the number of linebackers when defining the 3-4 or 4-3. I think it's much more about defining gaps and running lanes. If you have 3 guys on the line playing two gap defense, a fourth guy on the line rushing the QB, and 3 line backers playing Middle and Weakside OLB, it might count up as a 4-3 but is really just a 3-4 with your second OLB inched up to the line showing blitz.

On the same page, if you take a standard 3-4 and pull one backer to replace him with a DB, then you are still keeping essentially the same gap responsibilities as the 3-4.

 

[playit12]

You do have to account for the QB as an eligible Receiver. 5 guys are ineligible 6 are eligible. Some teams direct snap to RBs and others have the Qb go out for patterns as Brees did last season.

Not sure many teams that aren't playing against Atlanta would specify coverage responsibilites to the QB though? I certainly can't see the Eagles keeping and extra nickle back to cover Bledsoe when he runs an out pattern.

 

[Rack]

If that was in response to my post, I know it's not really a 4-3... But the nickel is generally based upon either the 4-3 or the 3-4 in the sense that you either are running one gap defenders or two gap defenders along the front line.

We use 4 down linemen for our Nickel defence, but I don't think we are using one gap schemes... instead we are basically running a 3 man front (a la 3-4) but moving our rush linebacker onto the line as a 7 technique (sort of like Freeney).

Perhaps someone that watched the game can tell me if this is right, but it seems to be what Parcells was saying... and it makes a lot of sense... much less for our rookie starters to learn.

They are two completely different defenses with differents objectives. Just cuz they have the same amount of DL doesn't make them similiar. A "nickel 4-3" would suggest we're running a 4-3 but with mainly pass rushers on the DL and better coverage LBs. But a Nickel doesn't even have 3 LBs so it can't be termed a "4-3". Technically, it's a 4-2, or the "42" or the "4-2-5".


And when we go to our Nickel D , the guy playing RE is playing RE. It's nothing similiar to Freeney cuz Freeney is a DE Fulltime.

 

[playit12]

They are two completely different defenses with differents objectives. Just cuz they have the same amount of DL doesn't make them similiar. A "nickel 4-3" would suggest we're running a 4-3 but with mainly pass rushers on the DL and better coverage LBs. But a Nickel doesn't even have 3 LBs so it can't be termed a "4-3". Technically, it's a 4-2, or the "42" or the "4-2-5".


And when we go to our Nickel D , the guy playing RE is playing RE. It's nothing similiar to Freeney cuz Freeney is a DE Fulltime.

4-3 and 3-4 only defines the play of the front 7, and in that regard is mostly concerned with gap responsibility.

the reason I don't like just calling this D a 4-2-5 is that a 4-2-5 where your each of your front four are playing one gap penetration is very different then if 3 of your front 4 are playing two gap and your fourth is lined up well outside the tackle in a 7,8, or 9 technique.

If you like it better I could call it a two gap based Nickel... but that seems a little flaky as many good one gap systems use one lineman in a two gap role (Green bay for instance).

Also, I know Freeny is a DE, but against some matchups he plays well outside the tackle box as a 7 or even a 9 technique rusher. He did this almost exclusively last year against Baltimore and Ogden. In this role he has little or no run responsibility inside the tackles and as such is not a traditional DE, more of a rush OLB. That is the role I would forsee Ware running.

Finally I'm not sure what the role of our 4th lineman is in our nickle package. If the rest of the line is playing the same gaps as with our traditional 3-4 then I would guess he would be well on the outside is a pure speed rush role.

Again I haven't seen the tapes so I don't know if this is really what we are running, but that is what Parcells seems to have suggested, and it does make sense to teach Spears, Canty, and Thompson a more limited scope of responsibilities.

 

[Rack]

4-3 and 3-4 only defines the play of the front 7, and in that regard is mostly concerned with gap responsibility

4-3 and 3-4 only has to do with the front 7 allignment. It has nothing to do with gap responsibility cuz you can different types of responsibilities (in the 4-3).

The Nickel consists of 4 linemen and 3 LBs. The Nickel consists of 4 Linemen, 2 LBs, and 5 DBs. Therefore "4-3" can't be used to describe the Nickel cuz the nickel isn't a 4-3. Can't make it any simpler.