Did Michael Irvin cost the Cowboys a Super Bowl?

[OhSnap]

It certainly hurt them in the early going of 1996. They likely wouldn't have started 2-3 if Irvin hadn't been suspended.

There are a lot of factors there that have nothing to do with Irvin however. I mean if Irvin didn't get in trouble does that mean Lett wouldn't have been suspended later that year? Doubtful. Leon probably still would have been and that would have still hurt the defense in a bad way.

If Irvin had been there those first 5 games would Kevin Smith have magically not been a shell of his former self? Doubtful. That achilles injury destroyed him and Irvin playing, or not playing, had absolutely nothing to do with that fact.

Now lets say he doesn't get hurt against Carolina and we do win that game and go to Greenbay. We would NOT have gone to Greenbay and beaten that Packers team in Greenbay to make it to the Superbowl.

People can hope and wish for that all they want but if we had to go to Greenbay for the NFC Championship game in 1996 the Cowboys defense would have been destroyed. They couldn't stop the run without Lett, so Greenbay would have pounded the ball nicely on them, and Kevin Smith would have been torched by a wide array of WR's.

Now if we could have had a better start to the year and got them in Dallas I'd say we'd have had a chance, despite those factors, simply because Favre sucked so bad in games in Texas Stadium. That's the only reason we'd have had a shot. But the thing is I don't know if we got to the Superbowl that we'd have even been able to win. Glenn would have eaten Smith alive and the Patriots certainly would have run the ball all day long on use without Lett. So that's just way to much speculation as to what they might have done there.


Now lets move beyond 1996. There is only 1 area that I will absolutely agree that would have changed for sure. If Irvin didn't get arrested in 1996, and everything else stayed pretty much the same, Dallas absolutely would have drafted Randy Moss. Of this I have no doubt. It's pretty obvious they decided not to draft Moss soley on the fact that they already had one WR with off the field issues.

But here is something else that I am 100% certain about if we did draft Moss. The Dallas Cowboys WOULD NOT have gotten the Randy Moss that we all saw dominate the league. There are two HUGE reasons for this.

#1) Moss wouldn't have been playing with the extremely large chip on his shoulder for being passed over by so many teams, especially the Cowboys, as we all know he did. He wouldn't have had that motivation that drove him like it did.

Couple that with....

#2) He wouldn't have had Cris Carter to mentor him and keep him out of trouble off the field at a time when Moss sorely needed that guidence. In Dallas he'd have had Irvin partying it up with him and doing stupid things off the field and Moss would have landed in trouble and would have been a mess.

The best thing that ever happened to Randy Moss was Michael Irvin screwing up so bad in 1996 that Jerry Jones refused to draft him.

I respect and reject your alternate version of events because I like mine better. Nice post.

 

[BAT]

Micheal Irvin' arrest during the 96 off season was the beginning of the end of the great 90's team. It lead to him missing the first 5 games and the Cowboys lost 3 of those games. The Cowboys had put together 3 straight 12-4 seasons leading up to this year and likely could have forced the Panthers to play on the road where the 2nd year expansion team wouldn't have been so comfortable. A win in that game would have led to a game with the Super Bowl bound Packers, a team that the Cowboys had owned in the playoffs for the 3 previous years.

It's possible that Irvin' birthday party cost a SB, then cost Barry Switzer his Job the next year because with a SB win he doesn't get fired the following year. That party also caused the Cowboys to pass on Randy Moss who would have still have had Troy Aikman for 3 more years and most definitely would have been a huge factor for the Cowboys in the next couple years while they still had a potent defense ranking in the top 10 in points allowed in 98 and 99. Passing on Moss also led to the deal for Joey Galloway as the Cowboys struggled to find a replacement for Irvin, a deal that used 2 first round picks for a guy that played one game his first year.

This, the Lett suspension and lack of a pass rusher to replace a crippled Charles Haley. In hindsight the inability to draft capable replacements and/or competent depth has been the true culprit for the fall of the dynasty in the 90's and the Cowboys overall lack of success since Jimmy.

 

[viman96]

 

[viman96]

http://i153.***BLOCKED***/albums/s204/johnnyboi798/2rngg29.gif

 

[GimmeTheBall!]

more useless and rather intellectually lazy speculation. Bottom line is that the team was going downhill and nothing was going to stop that.

Don't you just love when a response seeks to denigrate a post that is so useless that he NOT ONLY READS IT BUT RESPONDS TO IT?

Then the responser posts something equally intellectually lazy speculation by resorting to the bottom line: the team was going downhill. Really? I never would half guesed that.
In the hells of academia and in the centers of learning, your response is to be termed intellectually lazy speculations too because you go to cliche and do not seek to rebut, refute or renounce it with reasoning and logic. Just a phony, puny colokwialism that might define your education or mindset.

If you seek to denigrate, at least dress it up with some logic, some grounds of support. Some approbation of the masses. Some straw of reason.
Denigration be easy. Laying out a well-thought-out premise for your disgust is difficult. So try again.

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

Micheal Irvin' arrest during the 96 off season was the beginning of the end of the great 90's team. It lead to him missing the first 5 games and the Cowboys lost 3 of those games. The Cowboys had put together 3 straight 12-4 seasons leading up to this year and likely could have forced the Panthers to play on the road where the 2nd year expansion team wouldn't have been so comfortable. A win in that game would have led to a game with the Super Bowl bound Packers, a team that the Cowboys had owned in the playoffs for the 3 previous years.

It's possible that Irvin' birthday party cost a SB, then cost Barry Switzer his Job the next year because with a SB win he doesn't get fired the following year. That party also caused the Cowboys to pass on Randy Moss who would have still have had Troy Aikman for 3 more years and most definitely would have been a huge factor for the Cowboys in the next couple years while they still had a potent defense ranking in the top 10 in points allowed in 98 and 99. Passing on Moss also led to the deal for Joey Galloway as the Cowboys struggled to find a replacement for Irvin, a deal that used 2 first round picks for a guy that played one game his first year.

a whole bunch of speculation and what if this and what if that..... what if Irvin would have had an extra step on Deion when we played SF in NFC championship game in 1994....we would have beaten the niners and go one to demolish SD for a 3rd straight superbowl...what if.....(fill the blank).

I don't buy it. we could have still lost to GB regardless of you thinking we owned them.

plus who cares!!!!!

 

[GimmeTheBall!]

It certainly hurt them in the early going of 1996. They likely wouldn't have started 2-3 if Irvin hadn't been suspended.

There are a lot of factors there that have nothing to do with Irvin however. I mean if Irvin didn't get in trouble does that mean Lett wouldn't have been suspended later that year? Doubtful. Leon probably still would have been and that would have still hurt the defense in a bad way.

If Irvin had been there those first 5 games would Kevin Smith have magically not been a shell of his former self? Doubtful. That achilles injury destroyed him and Irvin playing, or not playing, had absolutely nothing to do with that fact.

Now lets say he doesn't get hurt against Carolina and we do win that game and go to Greenbay. We would NOT have gone to Greenbay and beaten that Packers team in Greenbay to make it to the Superbowl.

People can hope and wish for that all they want but if we had to go to Greenbay for the NFC Championship game in 1996 the Cowboys defense would have been destroyed. They couldn't stop the run without Lett, so Greenbay would have pounded the ball nicely on them, and Kevin Smith would have been torched by a wide array of WR's.

Now if we could have had a better start to the year and got them in Dallas I'd say we'd have had a chance, despite those factors, simply because Favre sucked so bad in games in Texas Stadium. That's the only reason we'd have had a shot. But the thing is I don't know if we got to the Superbowl that we'd have even been able to win. Glenn would have eaten Smith alive and the Patriots certainly would have run the ball all day long on use without Lett. So that's just way to much speculation as to what they might have done there.


Now lets move beyond 1996. There is only 1 area that I will absolutely agree that would have changed for sure. If Irvin didn't get arrested in 1996, and everything else stayed pretty much the same, Dallas absolutely would have drafted Randy Moss. Of this I have no doubt. It's pretty obvious they decided not to draft Moss soley on the fact that they already had one WR with off the field issues.

But here is something else that I am 100% certain about if we did draft Moss. The Dallas Cowboys WOULD NOT have gotten the Randy Moss that we all saw dominate the league. There are two HUGE reasons for this.

#1) Moss wouldn't have been playing with the extremely large chip on his shoulder for being passed over by so many teams, especially the Cowboys, as we all know he did. He wouldn't have had that motivation that drove him like it did.

Couple that with....

#2) He wouldn't have had Cris Carter to mentor him and keep him out of trouble off the field at a time when Moss sorely needed that guidence. In Dallas he'd have had Irvin partying it up with him and doing stupid things off the field and Moss would have landed in trouble and would have been a mess.

The best thing that ever happened to Randy Moss was Michael Irvin screwing up so bad in 1996 that Jerry Jones refused to draft him.

It certainly hurt them in the early going of 1996. They likely wouldn't have started 2-3 if Irvin hadn't been suspended.

There are a lot of factors there that have nothing to do with Irvin however. I mean if Irvin didn't get in trouble does that mean Lett wouldn't have been suspended later that year? Doubtful. Leon probably still would have been and that would have still hurt the defense in a bad way.

If Irvin had been there those first 5 games would Kevin Smith have magically not been a shell of his former self? Doubtful. That achilles injury destroyed him and Irvin playing, or not playing, had absolutely nothing to do with that fact.

Now lets say he doesn't get hurt against Carolina and we do win that game and go to Greenbay. We would NOT have gone to Greenbay and beaten that Packers team in Greenbay to make it to the Superbowl.

People can hope and wish for that all they want but if we had to go to Greenbay for the NFC Championship game in 1996 the Cowboys defense would have been destroyed. They couldn't stop the run without Lett, so Greenbay would have pounded the ball nicely on them, and Kevin Smith would have been torched by a wide array of WR's.

Now if we could have had a better start to the year and got them in Dallas I'd say we'd have had a chance, despite those factors, simply because Favre sucked so bad in games in Texas Stadium. That's the only reason we'd have had a shot. But the thing is I don't know if we got to the Superbowl that we'd have even been able to win. Glenn would have eaten Smith alive and the Patriots certainly would have run the ball all day long on use without Lett. So that's just way to much speculation as to what they might have done there.


Now lets move beyond 1996. There is only 1 area that I will absolutely agree that would have changed for sure. If Irvin didn't get arrested in 1996, and everything else stayed pretty much the same, Dallas absolutely would have drafted Randy Moss. Of this I have no doubt. It's pretty obvious they decided not to draft Moss soley on the fact that they already had one WR with off the field issues.

But here is something else that I am 100% certain about if we did draft Moss. The Dallas Cowboys WOULD NOT have gotten the Randy Moss that we all saw dominate the league. There are two HUGE reasons for this.

#1) Moss wouldn't have been playing with the extremely large chip on his shoulder for being passed over by so many teams, especially the Cowboys, as we all know he did. He wouldn't have had that motivation that drove him like it did.

Couple that with....

#2) He wouldn't have had Cris Carter to mentor him and keep him out of trouble off the field at a time when Moss sorely needed that guidence. In Dallas he'd have had Irvin partying it up with him and doing stupid things off the field and Moss would have landed in trouble and would have been a mess.

The best thing that ever happened to Randy Moss was Michael Irvin screwing up so bad in 1996 that Jerry Jones refused to draft him.

OK, here is a well-thought out response.
Delivered with courtesy, grace and logic. I hate you, Braveheart for your good writing.
I could write this good if i could.

 

[GimmeTheBall!]

Don't you just love when a response seeks to denigrate a post that is so useless that he NOT ONLY READS IT BUT RESPONDS TO IT?

Then the responser posts something equally intellectually lazy speculation by resorting to the bottom line: the team was going downhill. Really? I never would half guesed that.
In the hells of academia and in the centers of learning, your response is to be termed intellectually lazy speculations too because you go to cliche and do not seek to rebut, refute or renounce it with reasoning and logic. Just a phony, puny colokwialism that might define your education or mindset.

If you seek to denigrate, at least dress it up with some logic, some grounds of support. Some approbation of the masses. Some straw of reason.
Denigration be easy. Laying out a well-thought-out premise for your disgust is difficult. So try again.

Burma, ignore my stridency. I am gearing up for a adult education test and my teacher want me to espand my critical horizons. Nothing personal, think of it as heping me attain education when they tolt me i could not.
Your fiend,, gimme

 

[TwoDeep3]

I might agree with the OP. But to suggest Irvin is the sole reason why the team lost ignores Switzer and his permissive leadership that allowed the insane to run the asylum.

I believe 95 they won because of this permissive attitude. The team could ease up a bit and breath without Jimmy cracking the whip. But by 96 the team needed a task master.

Just like they need one today.

So while Irvin was a contributing factor, I think he was emblematic of a deeper problem with the leadership of the team and lack of discipline.

 

[links18]

But yet they played that game w/o both starting receivers.

Wow, good memory.

 

[links18]

We lost to the Bills by 3 and to the Colts by 1. And yeah that bear game might have played out differently too.

I have been trying to find some video of the end around we ran to Herschel Walker in the red zone in the Bills game, but I can't seem to locate any. I remember him looking rather cumbersome running laterally across the field.

 

[Doomsday101]

I might agree with the OP. But to suggest Irvin is the sole reason why the team lost ignores Switzer and his permissive leadership that allowed the insane to run the asylum.

I believe 95 they won because of this permissive attitude. The team could ease up a bit and breath without Jimmy cracking the whip. But by 96 the team needed a task master.

Just like they need one today.

So while Irvin was a contributing factor, I think he was emblematic of a deeper problem with the leadership of the team and lack of discipline.

I think the things Irvin was doing and other Cowboy players were happening even when Jimmy was there. The notorious white house was bought under Alvin Harpers name and players like Eric Williams and Lett were already getting into trouble and other player may have been busted after Jimmy left but that only means they were not getting caught. I think Irvin was the highest profile player but a lot of guys were doing the same. Thing in Dallas when you are winning you are treated like a God and I think players can get to a point where they feel they are above the rules and the law.

 

[perrykemp]

But yet they played that game w/o both starting receivers.

True. They lost WR1 Robert Brooks to a torn ACL and WR2 Antonio Freeman to a broken arm the month before.

The Packers eventually went and picked up (after the Cowboys game) Andre Rison who was sitting on the couch and he played pretty well for them on their Superbowl run.

 

[Doomsday101]

No. The Cowboys were not as good as the Packers

Dallas had already played GB in 1996 and beat them 21 to 6 so not sure how you figure we would not have had a chance. Eric Williams was still kicking the crud out of Reggie White. That was the game white was getting upset and throwing a fit because Williams was beating him like a step child. lol

 

[perrykemp]

Dallas had already played GB in 1996 and beat them 21 to 6 so not sure how you figure we would not have had a chance. Eric Williams was still kicking the crud out of Reggie White. That was the game white was getting upset and throwing a fit because Williams was beating him like a step child. lol

I agree that people are going a bit to far saying the Cowboys wouldn't have had a chance.

All we know is the Cowboys completely dominated the Packers in Cowboys stadium -- which reasons only the scheduling gods understand, was all the games the Cowboys and Packers played against one another from 93-96.

When the two teams finally played at Lambeau, it was an epic beating, however, that doesn't mean the 96 club wouldn't have faired a lot better.

 

[links18]

When the two teams finally played at Lambeau, it was an epic beating, however, that doesn't mean the 96 club wouldn't have faired a lot better.

IIRC, even in the '97 game it was tied at halftime after Deion pick-sixed Favre at the end of the half. I think it was even as close as 24-17 at the end of the third quarter before the flood gates opened in the fourth.

 

[RonSpringsdaman20]

ha

 

[GimmeTheBall!]

IIRC, Irvin himself said this. He felt he cost the team another Super Bowl.

I agree. I love the guy. I love how he turned his life around....but the distraction the next season, the fact that he missed five games due to suspension, and the fact that we passed on Randy because of him, cost us a realistic shot at another Super Bowl.

Mikey said that?
He half a high opinon of hisself, huh?

 

[windward]

I have been trying to find some video of the end around we ran to Herschel Walker in the red zone in the Bills game, but I can't seem to locate any. I remember him looking rather cumbersome running laterally across the field.

What sticks in my craw is with the Bills leading 7-0, Woodson picks off Todd Collins and tries to lateral it after 12 yards or so. Instead buffalo recovers and goes down to take a 10-0 lead. We lost 10-7.

 

[OhSnap]

Yeah not only that he was glass and got injured when we needed him most. Too bad he was so injury prone, we should have cut him when we knew he had a bad neck. #Zone

I think he was one of the greatest players Schramm/Landry/Brandt ever drafted. If you tried to rank all the great players they drafted you would have a hard time not having him in the top 10 IMO.