DMN Blog: Here's Troy Aikman on the ill-fated Romo to Hurd incompletion

[skinsscalper]

was that before or after he led us to three super bowl wins in route to becoming a hall of famer?

That would have been after, actually.

 

[khiladi]

That is not a matchup anyone would want. HOF CB vs #4 receiver.

I meant the defense...

 

[khiladi]

GAC is talking about a story -- I missed the source -- that Mike Nolan told his team all week that when Romo's first read was covered, he *always* went to his RB. So they covered the RB tight in advance and Romo got sacked because his second option was covered.

And Nolan also told them that when the offense was spread and there were more defenders on the side with more receivers, Romo always went to the side with fewer receivers (and defenders)... As in, Champ x2.

Then Mosley said this is exactly the kind of things he heard from opposing defenses -- like Pittsburgh -- last year down the stretch.


Don't kill the messenger.

Philly did the exact same thing in 2007, when they smothered Marion Barber, taking away Romo's check-downs on pass plays. Watch the tape again. Garett hasn't changed since the end of 2007.

 

[khiladi]

This stuff is so freaking overstated and overrated

There was no team in the history of modern NFL football more predictable and less varied an offense than the 91-95 Cowboys, yet their offense was virtually unstoppable.

They ran the vast majority of their plays from standard sets. You almost never saw a set with more than 3 WR's on the field. They even ran alot of 3rd down pass plays with a RB and FB on the field. They'd get a lead and go to a 2TE, 1 WR set the majority of the time in fourth quarters of games. They had almost NO motion whatsoever in their plays. They never used the shotgun. I believe it was Nate Newton who once said there were 8 running plays in the entire playbook.

One of the reasons they were so good is the QB didnt turn the ball over and threw the football with extreme accuracy. He might miss one or two here or there, but it was a rarity to see Aikman miss guys running scott free. He also didnt miss many reads. He could check off primary and secondary receivers, he could find mismatches at the LOS.


Our QB is not playing well right now, in fact other than his rookie yr in TC/PS, I cant remember him ever playing worse, especially for this many games in a row.Once he starts hitting those open guys, we'll start scoring alot of points, period.

Simple is not the same thing as predictable. Norv Turner's call to Harper was not predictable. That team was predicated on play-action pass, meaning it was anything but predictable. It is called keeping the defense honest and forcing the backs up. If it was about execution, then Deion Anderson should be running it in everytime for a touchdown provided his team executes.

 

[khiladi]

Spot on dbair. When the Cowboys first went to the Norv Turner offense, in 1991, Troy was more mechanical with it. He threw that flair pass to the RB over and over and over again. (check down) In 1992 it was different. He still checked down to that at times, but he became more and more proficient in reading defenses and finding open guys.


If indeed Romo was that predictable, it is up to him to be able to find secondary targets. But I actually think that Romo is usually pretty good at that. He just is in a slump it seems.

You mean in year 2 Troy Aikman started getting better under Norv Turner, like Phillip Rivers has gotten better under Norv Turner. And where is Romo going with Garrett as the OC? Oh yeah, that's right... he's regressing...But it's Romo's fault..Did the Cowboys changed OC with Troy Aikman as their QB? Yes, they did. Dave Schula was the OC and he was god awful, despite the fact the Cowboys had Irvin and Aikman. When Norv left, the Cowboys offense had Zampese as the DC and we sucked. Our red zone offense started to be ineffective and then we ended with Bruce Coslet.... Now we are with Jason garrett..

 

[khiladi]

Jason Garrett, one more time, is NOT Norv Turner...Norv Turner is one of the most brilliant OC in the game today. Norv Turner doesn't run his primary passing game out of shot-gun let Garrett. Norv Turner runs plenty of short passing plays, and flares. Nor Turner runs plenty of play-action passes and very rarely out of the shot-gun draw, from what i've seen.Garrett is akin to Mike Martz...

 

[skinsscalper]

Jason Garrett, one more time, is NOT Norv Turner...Norv Turner is one of the most brilliant OC in the game today. Norv Turner doesn't run his primary passing game out of shot-gun let Garrett. Norv Turner runs plenty of short passing plays, and flares. Nor Turner runs plenty of play-action passes and very rarely out of the shot-gun draw, from what i've seen.Garrett is akin to Mike Martz...

Actually, it seems to me that he is trying to be like the Patriots offense. I could be wrong though.

 

[khiladi]

Actually, it seems to me that he is trying to be like the Patriots offense. I could be wrong though.

If he is, it isn't even close. The Patriots offense exploits match-ups with Wes Walker against the LBs in a short passing game. Garrett has none. Our short passing game is the check-down to the RB, when our first receiving option is taken away.

 

[rcaldw]

Simple is not the same thing as predictable. Norv Turner's call to Harper was not predictable. That team was predicated on play-action pass, meaning it was anything but predictable. It is called keeping the defense honest and forcing the backs up. If it was about execution, then Deion Anderson should be running it in everytime for a touchdown provided his team executes.

Here is one of the problems, in my opinion, that we keep having in this discussion.

Quote - "Norv Turner's call to Harper was not predictable." I assume you are talking about the 1992 NFC Championship game in SF, the deep slant.

The play was 896 F Flat, if I remember correctly hearing Aikman talk about it.

You have 4 routes on that play.

8 route - post
9 route - fly
6 route - hitch
fullback to the flat

Previous to that play you had Irvin running that post (8 route), you had someone else, clearing (9 route), and you had Harper running the hitch on the right side. (6 route)

They had called the play twice before and Aikman had chosen the hitch both times. The result?

Irvin, wanting the ball in the biggest situation, switched sides with Harper, thinking that Aikman would go to the hitch again.

The outcome? Aikman got to the line of scrimmage, saw the coverage, saw the blitz, determined that the right throw was the 8 route and trusted Harper to be at the right spot and threw it.

My point? TURNER DIDN'T CALL A POST. He called a PLAY. That play had multiple options. Indeed they had run the same play at least 3 times that day and not once, until the 3rd time, had Aikman chosen the POST PORTION of that play.

I hear people on the board talking about Garrett calling a post, or calling fly pattern, or calling this or that. DO YOU REALIZE THAT PLAYS HAVE OPTIONS?

Do you realize that QB's can make choices?

If defenses know that Romo goes to a checkoff any time you take away his 1st choice, that is on Romo. (I'm guessing, because I don't pretend to completely understand it either.)

I think, as fans, we just look at it in too simplistic a fashion sometimes.

 

[aikemirv]

Why do you homers always do that .,...... just because he always bad mouths the Cowboys and hates everything about this current team ..... it does not make him any less of a fan.

People like you need a reality check ....

I think the above would qualify him as not a fan.... wouldn't it?

 

[Doomsday101]

Here is one of the problems, in my opinion, that we keep having in this discussion.

Quote - "Norv Turner's call to Harper was not predictable." I assume you are talking about the 1992 NFC Championship game in SF, the deep slant.

The play was 896 F Flat, if I remember correctly hearing Aikman talk about it.

You have 4 routes on that play.

8 route - post
9 route - fly
6 route - hitch
fullback to the flat

Previous to that play you had Irvin running that post (8 route), you had someone else, clearing (9 route), and you had Harper running the hitch on the right side. (6 route)

They had called the play twice before and Aikman had chosen the hitch both times. The result?

Irvin, wanting the ball in the biggest situation, switched sides with Harper, thinking that Aikman would go to the hitch again.

The outcome? Aikman got to the line of scrimmage, saw the coverage, saw the blitz, determined that the right throw was the 8 route and trusted Harper to be at the right spot and threw it.

My point? TURNER DIDN'T CALL A POST. He called a PLAY. That play had multiple options. Indeed they had run the same play at least 3 times that day and not once, until the 3rd time, had Aikman chosen the POST PORTION of that play.

I hear people on the board talking about Garrett calling a post, or calling fly pattern, or calling this or that. DO YOU REALIZE THAT PLAYS HAVE OPTIONS?

Do you realize that QB's can make choices?

If defenses know that Romo goes to a checkoff any time you take away his 1st choice, that is on Romo. (I'm guessing, because I don't pretend to completely understand it either.)

I think, as fans, we just look at it in too simplistic a fashion sometimes.

I explaind the same thing regarding this play and it went in one ear and out the others evidently because he continues to harp on that play.

 

[khiladi]

Here is one of the problems, in my opinion, that we keep having in this discussion.

Quote - "Norv Turner's call to Harper was not predictable." I assume you are talking about the 1992 NFC Championship game in SF, the deep slant.

The play was 896 F Flat, if I remember correctly hearing Aikman talk about it.

You have 4 routes on that play.

8 route - post
9 route - fly
6 route - hitch
fullback to the flat

Previous to that play you had Irvin running that post (8 route), you had someone else, clearing (9 route), and you had Harper running the hitch on the right side. (6 route)

They had called the play twice before and Aikman had chosen the hitch both times. The result?

Irvin, wanting the ball in the biggest situation, switched sides with Harper, thinking that Aikman would go to the hitch again.

The outcome? Aikman got to the line of scrimmage, saw the coverage, saw the blitz, determined that the right throw was the 8 route and trusted Harper to be at the right spot and threw it.

My point? TURNER DIDN'T CALL A POST. He called a PLAY. That play had multiple options. Indeed they had run the same play at least 3 times that day and not once, until the 3rd time, had Aikman chosen the POST PORTION of that play.

I hear people on the board talking about Garrett calling a post, or calling fly pattern, or calling this or that. DO YOU REALIZE THAT PLAYS HAVE OPTIONS?

Do you realize that QB's can make choices?

If defenses know that Romo goes to a checkoff any time you take away his 1st choice, that is on Romo. (I'm guessing, because I don't pretend to completely understand it either.)




I think, as fans, we just look at it in too simplistic a fashion sometimes.

Who draws up the valid options? Who tells his QB how to switch or rotate or choose another play or read a defense? And even if we give you the championship game what part of the following is incorrect:

That team was predicated on play-action pass, meaning it was anything but predictable. It is called keeping the defense honest and forcing the backs up. If it was about execution, then Deion Anderson should be running it in everytime for a touchdown provided his team executes.

When Romo broke free ofthe pressure and found Hurd for a 53 yard gain on 4th down, was that a play design by Garrett or Romo? I'm sure Garrett didn't draw that up as one of Romo's options... Garrett was in the position to make the call, despite his crappy play-calling on the drive that set up the red-zone field position in the first place, because of Romo...

 

[Doomsday101]

Who draws up the valid options? Who tells his QB how to switch or rotate or choose another play or read a defense? And even if we give you the championship game what part of the following is incorrect:When Romo broke free ofthe pressure and found Hurd for a 53 yard gain on 4th down, was that a play design by Garrett or Romo? I'm sure Garrett didn't draw that up as one of Romo's options... Garrett was in the position to make the call, despite his crappy play-calling on the drive that set up the red-zone field position in the first place, because of Romo...

QB determins where he will go once he is at the line and yes we have slants in our options and yes have ran them.

 

[khiladi]

QB determins where he will go once he is at the line and yes we have slants in our options and yes have ran them.

I wasn't asking if we have slants in our options. What I stated is the same Norv Turner that drew up the primary plays for Troy Aikman is the same Norv Turner that draws up the options plays and helps him analyze formations and what to choose. Jason Garrett is the same OC that draws up the options for Romo. It doesn't mean his options are valid. He is the same one that draws up the check-down that we see so often. Every damn play of Garrett has that check-down.

 

[rcaldw]

I wasn't asking if we have slants in our options. What I stated is the same Norv Turner that drew up the primary plays for Troy Aikman is the same Norv Turner that draws up the options plays and helps him analyze formations and what to choose. Jason Garrett is the same OC that draws up the options for Romo. It doesn't mean his options are valid. He is the same one that draws up the check-down that we see so often. Every damn play of Garrett has that check-down.

In the 896 F Flat play (the Harper play), there was a check down also - the throw to the flat. That is actually a Zampese, Turner, Coryell, offense thing. You always have a dump off option in case all else is covered up. You always have an outlet.

As I said in another post, when Aikman first started learning that offense, in 1991, he threw that flair pass A LOT. As he got more experienced reading defenses, you saw it less and less, though you still saw him do that.

I actually think everything will be fine before the year is over. We just need to stay patient.

 

[Doomsday101]

I wasn't asking if we have slants in our options. What I stated is the same Norv Turner that drew up the primary plays for Troy Aikman is the same Norv Turner that draws up the options plays and helps him analyze formations and what to choose. Jason Garrett is the same OC that draws up the options for Romo. It doesn't mean his options are valid. He is the same one that draws up the check-down that we see so often. Every damn play of Garrett has that check-down.

Every damn team has check downs as well. Right now plays are there to be made the players are not executing Romo has been so far off the mark in 2 or the 4 games but the plays are there to be made.

 

[khiladi]

I didn't say there was no check-down in Norv's offense. What I stated was the following:

I wasn't asking if we have slants in our options. What I stated is the same Norv Turner that drew up the primary plays for Troy Aikman is the same Norv Turner that draws up the options plays and helps him analyze formations and what to choose. Jason Garrett is the same OC THAT DRAWS UP THE OPTIONS FOR ROMO. It doesn't mean his options are valid. He is the same one that draws up the check-down THAT WE SEE SO OFTEN. Every damn play of Garrett has that check-down.

Like I said before:

When Romo broke free ofthe pressure and found Hurd for a 53 yard gain on 4th down, was that a play design by Garrett or Romo? I'm sure Garrett didn't draw that up as one of Romo's options... Garrett was in the position to make the call, despite his crappy play-calling on the drive that set up the red-zone field position in the first place, because of Romo...

As I said in another post, when Aikman first started learning that offense, in 1991, he threw that flair pass A LOT. As he got more experienced reading defenses, you saw it less and less, though you still saw him do that.

And Garrett has been here 3 years and Romo is regressing... Defenses know what is coming...

 

[dbair1967]

Like I said before:And Garrett has been here 3 years and Romo is regressing... Defenses know what is coming...

I still think its just a product of Romo being hurt. He's never had accuracy problems. The coordinator has very little to do with a guy who was accurate suddenly being unable to throw it in the ocean.

Guys are getting open, if we saw play after play of nobody open maybe you'd have something to whine about, but that isnt the case. Clearly there's one guy holding back the offense right now, and unfortunately its the QB. Hopefully he will get back to normal soon.

 

[craig71]

I just watched Cowboys Insider and they had a breakdown of three plays.Quick summary:

Larry Brown broke down the Marshall catch for a touchdown,he atttributed bad technique by Newman at the line that put him in a trail position and the rest is history.

On the Romo fumble which lead to a touchdown.Spagnola showed Choice motion out left while the DB creeped up,Romo never scanned the field(pre-snap) he was locked on Roy W. the whole way.

Romo to Hurd at the end.Shows that Hurd and Austin were open on the 4th down play,but once again Romo was locked onto Hurd.From the camera angle they showed it looked like he had time to glance left at Austin.

Ofcoarse none of this matters as it's time to get ready for K.C.

Craig