Dr. Z Mailbag

[AbeBeta]

Borderline case?

Yea right.

I've detailed this before -- Irvin was a borderline case because although he had great years, his career ended a bit early -- that makes him compare poorly on a statistical basis to the average WR in the hall. His receptions put him just a bit ahead of Andre Rison and Eric Moulds -- and those dudes aren't getting in the Hall. Even two more mediocre years and he's top 10 rather than top 20 in receptions and yards - and that's very important to many voters. Especially those who don't write for the Cowboys so they didn't follow the team as closely as the folks on the board.

Yes, he was part of 3 SB winners and the intangibles were outstanding. But those things do get offset in the minds of some of the voters by off the field stuf which is why his ended up a borderline case.

 

[AbeBeta]

I can't believe how many people act like these mediots who make up the HoF Selection committee are members of the Supreme Court, who have taken a sacred oath or something. The mediots who make up the selection committee are a bunch of sportswriters who represent each of the 32 NFL cities as well as a number of "at large" reps like "The Peter King".

The idea that a sportswriter who represents the city of a particular team would be in any way biased is unthinkable! Come on folks, wake up to a dose of reality. Every one of the members of the selection committee has biases and works for or against certain players or teams for their own personal reasons. Since we spent a lot of years beating up on the teams these guys cover it is no wonder that they are biased against us.

There are also a lot of personal biases at work so guys who screwed up like Irvin aren't judged solely on what they accomplished on the field but by what they did off it and even after they retired from the game, as Dr. Z admitted.

That's why Bob Hayes hasn't made it in. He should have been a first ballot inductee after he retired but he got busted for drugs and they didn't want anything to do with him. Now they say his numbers don't compare with the other WRs that are currently eligible but they certainly did when he was first eligible. Not to mention how he changed the game, which should have been enough to get him in a couple of years ago when he was a finalist but too many of these mediots still held him out from personal bias.

The HoF selection process is a joke because it uses the most biased people in the country as members of the committee. They might as well use fan voting like for the Pro-Bowl and would come up with the same results.

The committee should be made up of HoF members as well as some key NFL personnel, it shouldn't be left up to the mediots to decide as they are far from qualified and even farther from objective.

This "objective" angle makes me laugh. Everyone holds opinions and many will interpret the HoF criteria in different manners. Some of you think that there is some sort of gold standard that you can compare to. It isn't that simple -- deciding whether a guy is a yes or no for the hall involves 100s of subjective judgments and reasonable people will differ in their decisions at every step of the way.

Everyone holds biases -- that the folks who post regularly on a COWBOYS board don't recognize that is amazing. Did anyone stop to think that maybe, just maybe, we are biased toward favoring the Cowboys more than others are biased against them? HoF members aren't going to be any different than sportswriters in this regard.

 

[THUMPER]

This "objective" angle makes me laugh. Everyone holds opinions and many will interpret the HoF criteria in different manners. Some of you think that there is some sort of gold standard that you can compare to. It isn't that simple -- deciding whether a guy is a yes or no for the hall involves 100s of subjective judgments and reasonable people will differ in their decisions at every step of the way.

Everyone holds biases -- that the folks who post regularly on a COWBOYS board don't recognize that is amazing. Did anyone stop to think that maybe, just maybe, we are biased toward favoring the Cowboys more than others are biased against them? HoF members aren't going to be any different than sportswriters in this regard.

I disagree with your final statement. I think the HoF members would have a vested interest in bringing in only the best to their fraternity and would tend to be a bit less biased against certain players. I also think they would be less critical of a player who had off the field problems and focus more on what they did during the games.

They should also have a better idea of who was actually "great" rather than who was "famous" and be less inclined to go strictly by numbers or stats.

For the most part, the players know who the best guys are, they know who was tough to face, and they know who really had it and who didn't. Staubach said that Wehrli was the best shut-down corner he ever faced yet it took Wehrli a long time to get into the HoF because he didn't have the INT totals that some others did. That's because QBs avoided throwing in his direction.

If you asked most of the DTs from the 70s who the best Center was many would tell you Jeff Van Note of the Falcons yet to my knowledge, Van Note has never even been a finalist. He played for 18 seasons and made the Pro-Bowl 5 times but because the Falcons sucked he is overlooked by the selection committee.

There are dozens of similar stories about guys that the players feel were great but the media never got behind due to the lack of team success and/or notoriety.

The mediots are going to vote in the guys who were most "famous" not necessarily the "greatest" since it is their JOB to focus on fame rather than on greatness.

 

[AbeBeta]

I disagree with your final statement. I think the HoF members would have a vested interest in bringing in only the best to their fraternity and would tend to be a bit less biased against certain players. I also think they would be less critical of a player who had off the field problems and focus more on what they did during the games.

Why would a former player be any less biased against an off-the-field problem? There would likely be far more bias of other sorts as guys here would naturally favor teammates -- NFC guys would have little experience with AFC guys, etc. With sportswriters at least you have a group of people who are involved in coving the game on a day to day basis. They all have to be reasonable mentally competent to hold down their jobs day in and day out. Now former players are going to be a far more mixed bag. They'll be able to make easy decisions like Emmitt going in to the Hall but because so many of these guys are older and possibly don't follow the game as much as they back in their 40's and 50's, you'll have a situation where it becomes even harder to get an adequate # of votes. Can you imagine those discussions, it would end up an "aww, that's not a player, let me tell you about a great player" snoozefest that would make hall membership impossible for many players.

 

[2233boys]

Z is man enough to admit that Irvin's personality was hurting his borderline case -- and he was grown up enough to actually analyze why he WASN'T supporting Irvin. That should be an example to all the writers -- not something that you get all po'ed about. If every writer admitted these biases, the selection process would be all that more fair. Far better to admit a problem than ignore it.

Irvin wasn't a borderline Hall of Famer, unless you were a complete moron. He was the second best WR of his generation, behind only Jerry Rice. The Hall of Fame Hacks will put in Tim Brown and Chris Carter as first ballor Hall of Famers and during the 90's and up until he retired Irvin Smoked them both, in a run first offense.

The only things that kept Irvin out was the Cowboys bais, his arrest record and his personality, all BS reasons

 

[AbeBeta]

Irvin wasn't a borderline Hall of Famer, unless you were a complete moron. He was the second best WR of his generation, behind only Jerry Rice. The Hall of Fame Hacks will put in Tim Brown and Chris Carter as first ballor Hall of Famers and during the 90's and up until he retired Irvin Smoked them both, in a run first offense.

The only things that kept Irvin out was the Cowboys bais, his arrest record and his personality, all BS reasons

Over and over again, I've explained why he was borderline. He was borderline b/c he couldn't put up ungodly stats b/c his career ended early. Stats are a huge part of a WR's legacy and how he gets evaluated. Irvin wasn't top 10 in any career category -- this in a time where 100 reception season were a norm. Had he played a few more years he would have been top 10 in most categories and made a stronger argument. Any weakness in his performance record was going to get compounded by his off the field issues -- that is clearly why he was borderline and needed a few cracks to get in.

But stick with your conspiracy theories -- those usually come out 100% correct.

 

[2233boys]

Over and over again, I've explained why he was borderline. He was borderline b/c he couldn't put up ungodly stats b/c his career ended early. Stats are a huge part of a WR's legacy and how he gets evaluated. Irvin wasn't top 10 in any career category -- this in a time where 100 reception season were a norm. Had he played a few more years he would have been top 10 in most categories and made a stronger argument. Any weakness in his performance record was going to get compounded by his off the field issues -- that is clearly why he was borderline and needed a few cracks to get in.

But stick with your conspiracy theories -- those usually come out 100% correct.

He was the second best wr in the league from 1991 to 1999 behind only Jerry Rice. Stats prove that point.

Dr. Z confirmed one of my conclusions, emails I have recieved from Hall of Fame Voters have confirmed others. But you go right ahead, thinking that the second best WR of his generation was only a borderline HOF...

 

[Idgit]

Irvin wasn't a borderline Hall of Famer, unless you were a complete moron. He was the second best WR of his generation, behind only Jerry Rice. The Hall of Fame Hacks will put in Tim Brown and Chris Carter as first ballor Hall of Famers and during the 90's and up until he retired Irvin Smoked them both, in a run first offense.

The only things that kept Irvin out was the Cowboys bais, his arrest record and his personality, all BS reasons

I can agree with this without even reading through abersonc's argument that he was borderline. There's no reasons for the HoF to exist if it isn't going to include the Triplets. Arguments to the contrary aren't convincing and aren't interesting.

And HoF voters who can't keep track of the simple evaluation criteria because they're either too drunk or too stupid to remember their objectivity deserve the damage they do to their own reputations.

 

[AbeBeta]

He was the second best wr in the league from 1991 to 1999 behind only Jerry Rice. Stats prove that point.

1991-1995 were great years. 1996-1999 were not so great. In fact, he didn't make a probowl in 96-99.

Stats prove that point too.

 

[AbeBeta]

But you go right ahead, thinking that the second best WR of his generation was only a borderline HOF...

He was the best between 1991 and 1995 -- before and after that he wasn't even close. This isn't Irvin hatred talking it is just the facts.

 

[THUMPER]

Why would a former player be any less biased against an off-the-field problem? There would likely be far more bias of other sorts as guys here would naturally favor teammates -- NFC guys would have little experience with AFC guys, etc. With sportswriters at least you have a group of people who are involved in coving the game on a day to day basis. They all have to be reasonable mentally competent to hold down their jobs day in and day out. Now former players are going to be a far more mixed bag. They'll be able to make easy decisions like Emmitt going in to the Hall but because so many of these guys are older and possibly don't follow the game as much as they back in their 40's and 50's, you'll have a situation where it becomes even harder to get an adequate # of votes. Can you imagine those discussions, it would end up an "aww, that's not a player, let me tell you about a great player" snoozefest that would make hall membership impossible for many players.

It wouldn't be just a bunch of guys who played in the 40s & 50s but a committee made up of a mix of players from different eras, including recent guys like Aikman or Bruce Matthews. I'm not talking about just a random group either but guys who have stayed abreast of the game, like Aikman, Marv Levy, and John Madden. Guys like Chuck Bednarik and Art Donovan might be considered as part of the seniors committee but not for the general selection committee.

As for how they would think about a guy who has some off field problems, unless you have completely closed your eyes and ears to what has been going on with Michael Vick you would see that players stick together, even to the point of almost condoning the criminal actions of "one of their own". I'm not talking about just his current teammates but guys like Emmitt & Irvin who are retired and never played with Vick.

 

[tyke1doe]

Posters argue that a player's selection should only be based on his on-field accomplishments, but when there's a limited number of candidates who can be placed in the Hall any given year and you have equally qualified players, off-field controvery will be taken into consideration.

And I don't care how self-righteous some want to get on the issue, you would do the same thing - unless you treat everyone equally in all cases, and no one does that, protests to the contrary. And we're not talking about a decision between a veteran vs. a rookie. We're talking about people who have the credentials to be mentioned as Hall of Fame worthy.

 

[tyke1doe]

This "objective" angle makes me laugh. Everyone holds opinions and many will interpret the HoF criteria in different manners. Some of you think that there is some sort of gold standard that you can compare to. It isn't that simple -- deciding whether a guy is a yes or no for the hall involves 100s of subjective judgments and reasonable people will differ in their decisions at every step of the way.

Everyone holds biases -- that the folks who post regularly on a COWBOYS board don't recognize that is amazing. Did anyone stop to think that maybe, just maybe, we are biased toward favoring the Cowboys more than others are biased against them? HoF members aren't going to be any different than sportswriters in this regard.

 

[tyke1doe]

Irvin wasn't a borderline Hall of Famer, unless you were a complete moron. He was the second best WR of his generation, behind only Jerry Rice. The Hall of Fame Hacks will put in Tim Brown and Chris Carter as first ballor Hall of Famers and during the 90's and up until he retired Irvin Smoked them both, in a run first offense.

The only things that kept Irvin out was the Cowboys bais, his arrest record and his personality, all BS reasons

Uh, unfortunately, you're comparing Irvin with other receivers and not comparing Irvin with the class of nominees.

Comparing Irvin with Tim Brown and Chris Carter is disingenious and meaningless because neither was being considered with Irvin.

Irvin DID beat out Art Monk. That's a more fitting comparison. But notice who Irvin had to compete with ...

DAN MARINO
Position: Quarterback
Team: Miami Dolphins
Years: 1983-1999
Seasons: 17
Honors and Achievements:
• 9-time Pro Bowl selection
• 8-time All-Pro selection
• 6-time All-AFC selection
• 1983 Rookie of the Year
• 1984 NFL Most Valuable Player
Marino's career statistics

STEVE YOUNG
Position: Quarterback
Teams: Tampa Bay Buccaneers
San Francisco 49ers
Years: 1985-1999
Seasons: 15
Honors and Achievements:
• 7-time Pro Bowl selection
• 4-time All-Pro selection
• 3-time All-NFC selection
• 2-time NFL Most Valuable Player
• Super Bowl XXIX Most Valuable Player
Young's career statistics

FRITZ POLLARD
Position: Running Back, Coach
Teams: Akron Pros, Milwaukee Badgers, Hammond Pros, Gilberton Cadamounts (independent), Providence Steam Roller
Years: 1919-1926
Seasons: 8
Honors and Achievements:
• 2-time All-America, Brown University
• All-NFL in 1920
• First African-American head coach in NFL history

BENNY FRIEDMAN
Position: Quarterback
Teams: Cleveland Bulldogs, Detroit Wolverines, New York Giants, Brooklyn Dodgers
Years: 1927-1934
Seasons: 8
Honors and Achievements:
• 4-time All-NFL selection
• 4-time league leader in TD passes
• Led league in TDs passing and rushing (1928)

Excluding the later two - who probably were due induction based on history alone, where is there a receiver on the list and do you think Irvin should have been inducted before Marino and Young?

TROY AIKMAN
Position: Quarterback
Team: Dallas Cowboys
Years: 1989-2000
Seasons: 12
Honors and Achievements:
• No. 1 overall pick in 1989
• 6-time Pro Bowl selection
• Led Dallas to three Super Bowl titles
• Super Bowl XXIX Most Valuable Player XXVII
• A leader and a winner

HARRY CARSON
Position: Linebacker
Teams: New York Giants
Years: 1976-1988
Seasons: 13
Honors and Achievements:
• 9-time Pro Bowl selection
• 2-time All-Pro selection
• 5-time All-NFC selection
• Carson finally headed to Hall

JOHN MADDEN
Position: Coach
Teams: Oakland Raiders
Years: 1969-1978
Honors and Achievements:
• 103-32-7 regular-season record
• Led Raiders to Super Bowl XI title
• AFL Coach of the Year in 1969
• Coaching credentials Hall worthy

WARREN MOON
Position: Quarterback
Teams: Houston Oilers, Minnesota Vikings, Seattle Seahawks, Kansas City Chiefs
Years: 1984-2000
Seasons: 17
Honors and Achievements:
• All-Pro in 1990
• Began career with CFL's Edmonton Eskimos
• Threw for 49,325 yards
• Moon starred in NFL and CFL

REGGIE WHITE
Position: Defensive lineman
Teams: Philadelphia Eagles, Green Bay Packers, Carolina Panthers
Years: 1985-1998; 2000
Seasons: 15
Honors and Achievements:
• Named All-Pro 13 of 15 seasons
• Elected to 13 straight Pro Bowls
• 3-time Defensive Player of the Year
• White mixed faith and football

RAYFIELD WRIGHT
Position: Offensive tackle
Teams: Dallas Cowboys
Years: 1967-1979
Seasons: 8
Honors and Achievements:
• Named to NFL's All-Decade Team of the 1970s
• Picked for six consecutive Pro Bowl (1971-1976)
• Move to tackle keys Hall career

Again, where is the receiver on that list?

So it's not as clear cut as you say it is.

 

[AbeBeta]

It wouldn't be just a bunch of guys who played in the 40s & 50s but a committee made up of a mix of players from different eras, including recent guys like Aikman or Bruce Matthews. I'm not talking about just a random group either but guys who have stayed abreast of the game, like Aikman, Marv Levy, and John Madden. Guys like Chuck Bednarik and Art Donovan might be considered as part of the seniors committee but not for the general selection committee.

As for how they would think about a guy who has some off field problems, unless you have completely closed your eyes and ears to what has been going on with Michael Vick you would see that players stick together, even to the point of almost condoning the criminal actions of "one of their own". I'm not talking about just his current teammates but guys like Emmitt & Irvin who are retired and never played with Vick.

1. How are you going to select the players for the committee -- we'd be hearing tons of crying about how it wasn't representative if everyone was not part of it.

2. You hear about players who are coming out in favor of Vick because that is newsworthy. You rarely hear guys talking crap about other players unless they are really stupid. Going by what you hear in the media is likely totally misleading as you'll never see an interview with someone who says "gee, I really hope Vick didn't do that b/c that would be really terrible and inhumane if he did." I expect that's what most players would express publicly. That just doesn't make good TV.

 

[2233boys]

He was the best between 1991 and 1995 -- before and after that he wasn't even close. This isn't Irvin hatred talking it is just the facts.

In the 90's
Irvin in the 90's amassed 10,872 yards, in 139 games he averaged about 78 yards a game, with 58 touchdowns, five pro bowls, and seven 1000 yard seasons

Tim Brown in the 90's amassed 10211 yards, in 159 games he averaged about 64 yards per game, with 70 touchdowns, seven pro bowls, and seven 1000 yard seasons

Chris Carter in the 90's amassed 10,238 yards, in 156 games he averaged 65 yards a game, with 95 touchdowns, seven pro bowls, and seven 1000 yard seasons

Jerry Rice in the 90's amassed 12,078 yards, in 146 games he averaged 82 yards a game, with 103 touchdowns, eight pro bowls, and eight 1000 yard seasons.


Irvin did that in a run first offense, an offense that didn't light the scoreboard up through the air. Yeah Irvin wasn't the best wr's of his time, and just a borderline HOF.

 

[THUMPER]

In the 90's
Irvin in the 90's amassed 10,872 yards, in 139 games he averaged about 78 yards a game, with 58 touchdowns, five pro bowls, and seven 1000 yard seasons

Tim Brown in the 90's amassed 10211 yards, in 159 games he averaged about 64 yards per game, with 70 touchdowns, seven pro bowls, and seven 1000 yard seasons

Chris Carter in the 90's amassed 10,238 yards, in 156 games he averaged 65 yards a game, with 95 touchdowns, seven pro bowls, and seven 1000 yard seasons

Jerry Rice in the 90's amassed 12,078 yards, in 146 games he averaged 82 yards a game, with 103 touchdowns, eight pro bowls, and eight 1000 yard seasons.


Irvin did that in a run first offense, an offense that didn't light the scoreboard up through the air. Yeah Irvin wasn't the best wr's of his time, and just a borderline HOF.

Just like the stats show, he was the 2nd best WR in the game. He also won 3 SBs while Rice and Brown only won 1 each and Carter zero. (Obviously I know that Rice won others but not in the 90s)

 

[2233boys]

Uh, unfortunately, you're comparing Irvin with other receivers and not comparing Irvin with the class of nominees.

Comparing Irvin with Tim Brown and Chris Carter is disingenious and meaningless because neither was being considered with Irvin.

Irvin DID beat out Art Monk. That's a more fitting comparison. But notice who Irvin had to compete with ...



Excluding the later two - who probably were due induction based on history alone, where is there a receiver on the list and do you think Irvin should have been inducted before Marino and Young?




Again, where is the receiver on that list?

So it's not as clear cut as you say it is.

It is clear cut, Irvin made the final ballot in 2005 and they didn't elect their full compliment of players, he should have been first ballot. I read the comments by the HOF voters, that said, he didn't compare to any wr in his era. The voters who said Art Monk's stats put Irvins to shame. The Voters who said, Irvin would never get in until Monk did. But yeah I am taking it out of context.

As an aside, Irvin> Moon. He should have been in both years there was no excuse not to put him in.

 

[2233boys]

Just like the stats show, he was the 2nd best WR in the game. He also won 3 SBs while Rice and Brown only won 1 each and Carter zero. (Obviously I know that Rice won others but not in the 90s)

There is no question in my mind that Jerry Rice was the greatest wr ever. There is also no question in my mind that some of these people discredit what Irvin meant to this team and just how good of a WR he really was.

 

[AbeBeta]

In the 90's
Irvin in the 90's amassed 10,872 yards, in 139 games he averaged about 78 yards a game, with 58 touchdowns, five pro bowls, and seven 1000 yard seasons

Tim Brown in the 90's amassed 10211 yards, in 159 games he averaged about 64 yards per game, with 70 touchdowns, seven pro bowls, and seven 1000 yard seasons

Chris Carter in the 90's amassed 10,238 yards, in 156 games he averaged 65 yards a game, with 95 touchdowns, seven pro bowls, and seven 1000 yard seasons

Jerry Rice in the 90's amassed 12,078 yards, in 146 games he averaged 82 yards a game, with 103 touchdowns, eight pro bowls, and eight 1000 yard seasons.


Irvin did that in a run first offense, an offense that didn't light the scoreboard up through the air. Yeah Irvin wasn't the best wr's of his time, and just a borderline HOF.

The HoF isn't about how you perform in a specific decade -- the HUGE difference between those guys and Irvin is that 88 didn't have a good season outside of that decade. Rice had 8 other very good seasons and about 3 weak ones in his career. Tim Brown had another 3 big seasons that weren't in the 90s. Even Carter had two great, non-90s years.

Rice isn't even in the discussion -- he's the greatest WR I've ever seen.

Carter and Brown you characterize as being in Pass first offenses. So what, those are also offenses where you have the safety back in coverage rather than being forced to play close to the line. You can play the 'oh, he played in this sort of O game all day.' Do you also want to argue that Barry Sanders would have gained 3000 yards a year if he ran behind the Cowboy line? B/c that is where that logic will get you.

And if you look at his 96-99 performance, you'll see there is nothing there that screams "best"