Dr. Z Mailbag

[AbeBeta]

Just like the stats show, he was the 2nd best WR in the game. He also won 3 SBs while Rice and Brown only won 1 each and Carter zero. (Obviously I know that Rice won others but not in the 90s)

and at this point Carter and Brown are ..... not in the HoF. So until those guys get in -- and I doubt both will on first ballots unless the field is really weak -- then there is no legitimate argument here.

 

[SultanOfSix]

If Swann is in the HOF, no way Irvin is "borderline".

 

[AbeBeta]

In the 90's
Irvin in the 90's amassed 10,872 yards, in 139 games he averaged about 78 yards a game, with 58 touchdowns, five pro bowls, and seven 1000 yard seasons

Here's Mike's stats - 96-99 were not fantastic years. 1996 was a real blemish as his absence pretty much screwed a very talented team in what would be their last real shot at the SB. These #s are exactly what gave voters pause -- now if he played a few more years, even just hitting the relatively pedestrian 1997/98 numbers in those years - then it would have been more of a slam dunk.

Year G Rec Yards Y/R TD
1988 14 32 654 20.4 5
1989 6 26 378 14.5 2
1990 12 20 413 20.6 5
1991 16 93 1523 16.4 8
1992 16 78 1396 17.9 7
1993 16 88 1330 15.1 7
1994 16 79 1241 15.7 6
1995 16 111 1603 14.4 10
1996 11 64 962 15.0 2
1997 16 75 1180 15.7 9
1998 16 74 1057 14.3 1
1999 4 10 167 16.7 3

 

[AbeBeta]

If Swann is in the HOF, no way Irvin is "borderline".

I am going to say this one last time.

It is idiotic to use the WORST WR in the hall as a comparison. You use the average WR in the hall for a meaningful comparison.

By your logic Rahib Ismail should be in the Hall too.

 

[percyhoward]

3 rings, 5 Pro Bowls, wide receiver, no-brainer.

 

[AbeBeta]

3 rings, 5 Pro Bowls, wide receiver, no-brainer.

you might ask yourself why such a talented player only made 5 probowls....

 

[percyhoward]

you might ask yourself why such a talented player only made 5 probowls....

What's the average number of Pro Bowls for WR's with mutiple championships in the HOF?

 

[2233boys]

Here's Mike's stats - 96-99 were not fantastic years. 1996 was a real blemish as his absence pretty much screwed a very talented team in what would be their last real shot at the SB. These #s are exactly what gave voters pause -- now if he played a few more years, even just hitting the relatively pedestrian 1997/98 numbers in those years - then it would have been more of a slam dunk.

Year G Rec Yards Y/R TD
1988 14 32 654 20.4 5
1989 6 26 378 14.5 2
1990 12 20 413 20.6 5
1991 16 93 1523 16.4 8
1992 16 78 1396 17.9 7
1993 16 88 1330 15.1 7
1994 16 79 1241 15.7 6
1995 16 111 1603 14.4 10
1996 11 64 962 15.0 2
1997 16 75 1180 15.7 9
1998 16 74 1057 14.3 1
1999 4 10 167 16.7 3

His stats were pretty damn good still... He caught 70 + passes for over 1000 yrds in both seasons he played all 16 games. You are fooling yourself if you think that the drug suspension season of 1996 he wouldn't have put up similar numbers. Before getting hurt he was putting together a hell of a season.

To another idiotic point you made, about my argument being the same as saying Sanders would have rushed for more yrds had he ran behind Dallas line. Ahhh No it isn't even close. If you threw the ball to Mike more he would have caught more passes and therefore had more yrds. That isn't a stretch that is logic. The Barry argument isn't even the same, one you are supposing the other, is logic.

You really have no argument whatsoever. But yet you continue on.

 

[2233boys]

you might ask yourself why such a talented player only made 5 probowls....

Because ******** fans like you vote...

 

[AbeBeta]

What's the average number of Pro Bowls for WR's with mutiple championships in the HOF?

Difficult to say since Largent having retired in 89 was the most recent WR in the hall before Irvin. It is difficult if not impossible to compare across generations with so few WR in the hall from the vaguely modern era and changes in probowl selection procedures, etc.

You do realize that there are only 18 WR from the "modern era" in the Hall right? That is pretty much guys who played in the 50's onward. I think Largent is the only guy in the Hall who actually played during Irvin's career at all.

 

[AbeBeta]

Because ******** fans like you vote...

Dude -- have a discussion of the issue -- don't call me ******** or an idiot -- I'm the one making an actual point here while you parrot lame talk radio arguments. You may not agree but you can discuss this like a grown up.

 

[percyhoward]

Difficult to say since Largent having retired in 89 was the most recent WR in the hall before Irvin. It is difficult if not impossible to compare across generations with so few WR in the hall from the vaguely modern era and changes in probowl selection procedures, etc.

You do realize that there are only 18 WR from the "modern era" in the Hall right? That is pretty much guys who played in the 50's onward. I think Largent is the only guy in the Hall who actually played during Irvin's career at all.

They may reckon that there are too many WR's in the hall already, which I'd disagree with anyway. It's not a case of too many, just the wrong ones, sometimes. For example, I put Cliff Branch (4 Pro Bowls, 3 rings) in there instead of Charlie Joiner (3 Pro Bowls, no rings).

But Irvin's 5 Pro Bowls and 3 rings is what makes his induction a foregone conclusion, to me.

You think 5 Pro Bowls isn't much, but like I was saying you have to look at the WR's with more than one SB ring who are already in the HOF, and count the number of Pro Bowls each one went to in his career. If you do that, I don't believe 5 Pro Bowls is a low number at all.

WR'S with multiple SB rings in HOF
Swann 3 Pro Bowls
Stallworth 3 Pro Bowls
Warfield 8 Pro Bowls
Irvin 5 Pro Bowls

 

[AbeBeta]

They may reckon that there are too many WR's in the hall already, which I'd disagree with anyway. It's not a case of too many, just the wrong ones, sometimes. For example, I put Cliff Branch (4 Pro Bowls, 3 rings) in there instead of Charlie Joiner (3 Pro Bowls, no rings).

But Irvin's 5 Pro Bowls and 3 rings is what makes his induction a foregone conclusion, to me.

You think 5 Pro Bowls isn't much, but like I was saying you have to look at the WR's with more than one SB ring who are already in the HOF, and count the number of Pro Bowls each one went to in his career. If you do that, I don't believe 5 Pro Bowls is a low number at all.

WR'S with multiple SB rings in HOF
Swann 3 Pro Bowls
Stallworth 3 Pro Bowls
Warfield 8 Pro Bowls
Irvin 5 Pro Bowls

Different era -- Tim Brown has what? 8 Pro bowls. Hard to compare - especially with a sample of 4 receivers.

 

[SultanOfSix]

I am going to say this one last time.

It is idiotic to use the WORST WR in the hall as a comparison. You use the average WR in the hall for a meaningful comparison.

By your logic Rahib Ismail should be in the Hall too.

Nah. I'm using the example of someone who meant more to his team than just stats.

That's what you can't get through your skull.

 

[AbeBeta]

Nah. I'm using the example of someone who meant more to his team than just stats.

That's what you can't get through your skull.

So I'm just supposed to guess what you meant? Try to make a case before you tell someone they don't get it.

Swann did mean more than his stats show. He also never took away from his team like Irvin did in 1996 when his suspension cost the team a legit shot at another ring.

 

[DWhite Fan]

Dan of Colorado Springs asks whom I feel is the most overrated, undeserving member of the Hall. His candidate is Joe Namath, based on his overall statistics. I don't agree. There's another category for consideration called, How Did He Change The Game? Namath brought credence to an entire league, the AFL, and helped every wage-earner on those teams. Plus he was a master of the two-minute offense, and he rose to the heights when the stakes were highest. I think that in this case you've got to overlook lifetime stats. Most undeserving member? Doak Walker, HB-DB, Detroit Lions.

This is the very reason why Bob Hayes should have been in the Hall years ago:bang2:

 

[2233boys]

Dude -- have a discussion of the issue -- don't call me ******** or an idiot -- I'm the one making an actual point here while you parrot lame talk radio arguments. You may not agree but you can discuss this like a grown up.

You haven't made a valid point the entire discussion, but carry on...

 

[2233boys]

Different era -- Tim Brown has what? 8 Pro bowls. Hard to compare - especially with a sample of 4 receivers.

Pro Bowls are meaningless. So what Tim Brown has 8 appearances, until fans can't vote Pro Bowls are meaningless. Adams and Williams didn't belong in the pro bowl last year, but they went.

As an aside, I expanded the numbers I posted earlier to include their entire careers together.
From 1988-1999 Irvin 750 catches for 11904 yrds for 15.9 yrds a catch and 65 tds in 159 games

Tim Brown 798 catches for 10014 yrds for 12.5 yrds a catch and 77 tds in 176 games

Chris Carter 919 catches for 11604 for 12.6 yrds a catch and 112 tds in 188 games.

Granted both had more tds, but in the time the played together, Irvin had better stats than both of them in fewer games.

Jerry Rice the greatest wr ever in the same time frame had 1006 catches for 14867 yrds for 14.8 yrds a catch 127 tds in 178 games


All three of those guys will be first Ballot Hall of Famers without question. But Irvin in your mind was Borderline

 

[2233boys]

So I'm just supposed to guess what you meant? Try to make a case before you tell someone they don't get it.

Swann did mean more than his stats show. He also never took away from his team like Irvin did in 1996 when his suspension cost the team a legit shot at another ring.

And there it is... Our little friend let us know why Irvin is borderline.

 

[SultanOfSix]

So I'm just supposed to guess what you meant? Try to make a case before you tell someone they don't get it.

Why not? You guessed what I meant when you assumed that I mentioned Swann because of his stats. That is something you did because you were focused on this particular aspect as the key determining factor as to why people get selected for the HOF.

Swann did mean more than his stats show. He also never took away from his team like Irvin did in 1996 when his suspension cost the team a legit shot at another ring.

If I recall correctly, we finished that season 10-6, still made the playoffs, and Irvin got an extra game suspension for an illegitimate reason.

Since when did costing a team a "legit shot" (which is so debatable), while being a significant part of 3 teams that did win SBs (which is not debatable) become a factor of consideration for induction into the HOF?