Drafting a safety ......

[supercowboy8]

Kiffin more than likely (albeit a miracle) won't be here next season.

Expect a miracle

 

[xwalker]

I don't think that drafting a safety high priority. I think it is a want, not a need for us at this point. It is not a "must have".

If the Safeties on the roster are not the answer in 2014, then I don't know if a draft pick will be either. The problem is that there is too much youth and instability around the current Safeties. Church is the leader but is still not all that experienced or talented.

If you put Wilcox into Seattle's defense next to Earl Thomas, he would probably be a good player; however, in Dallas with both a new scheme for everybody and limited talent surrounding him, it's much more difficult. I don't know if a draft pick, even Ha Ha, would solve the problem in 2014. By 2015, there is a good chance that at least one of Wilcox, Heath, and Matt Johnson step up and play great because they all have physical talent.

If the young guys project to be good by 2015 and a draft pick does not really help that much in 2014, then my conclusion is that a Free Agent is a better option than a draft pick.

I think it's much easier to put DLine draft picks in the rotation immediately as compared to a Safety. This is especially true in Marinelli's DL style where physical talent is the primary requirement and the mental side much easier than some other schemes.

 

[xwalker]

What do y'all think about LaMarcus Joyner? I like Bailey but his knock is his range and hes seems more a Church type player. Bailey could drop to 4-5 round since he lacks speed and range for safety and some may feel he's too small for LB.

Joyner is 5'7-3/4", 190. We're already seeing problems with the Cowboys DBs matching up the the monster sized WRs this year. IMO, the Cowboys need to focus on adding bigger players to the secondary, not smaller ones.

 

[cowboys1981]

Joyner is 5'7-3/4", 190. We're already seeing problems with the Cowboys DBs matching up the the monster sized WRs this year. IMO, the Cowboys need to focus on adding bigger players to the secondary, not smaller ones.

We need guys with range more than anything else IMO. Reed and Palomalu both are under 6 and don't play like it. Not to say Joyner is in that class, but we need to look beyond measurements.

 

[xwalker]

We need guys with range more than anything else IMO. Reed and Palomalu both are under 6 and don't play like it. Not to say Joyner is in that class, but we need to look beyond measurements.

Did you see Scandrick (5-10, 191) trying to cover Alshon Jeffery (6-3, 216)? Scandrick had tight coverage on several occasions but Jeffery was just too big and took the ball. It's the same problem with Megatron, Brandon Marshall, and the slew of pass catching TEs in the league. We'll see more big WRs and TEs that look like big WRs in the upcoming Packers game.

 

[ABQcowboyJR]

Did you see Scandrick (5-10, 191) trying to cover Alshon Jeffery (6-3, 216)? Scandrick had tight coverage on several occasions but Jeffery was just too big and took the ball. It's the same problem with Megatron, Brandon Marshall, and the slew of pass catching TEs in the league. We'll see more big WRs and TEs that look like big WRs in the upcoming Packers game.

I understand the point your trying to make, but it is really hard to evaluate these corners because of the lack of pressure IMO. I'm not sure Seattle would have a good day against those guys with zero pressure.

 

[xwalker]

I understand the point your trying to make, but it is really hard to evaluate these corners because of the lack of pressure IMO. I'm not sure Seattle would have a good day against those guys with zero pressure.

My point is more of a general concept. The NFL is getting more and more big receivers. If the Cowboys are going to invest the time in developing DBs, they should put a priority on bigger players.

I will note that although Claiborne is only 5-11, he has very long arms which gives him the reach of a taller player.

 

[ABQcowboyJR]

My point is more of a general concept. The NFL is getting more and more big receivers. If the Cowboys are going to invest the time in developing DBs, they should put a priority on bigger players.

I will note that although Claiborne is only 5-11, he has very long arms which gives him the reach of a taller player.

Yeah I don't disagree with your assessment here. Its tough though cause a lot of those big guys end up playing offense.

 

[LatinMind]

I think in today's NFL it is a must have. Your safeties generally have to be pretty darn good. And the top defense in the NFL, Seattle, has 2 great ones.

The issue I think is that Jerry is still stuck in the 90's when 'cover corners' were fashionable and thinks that any of these guys have 1/10th the ability of Deion.

These days corners have to tackle well. Teams will just throw short passes at them time and time again. The ball *will* be completed, it's a case of preventing YAC. Also, corners have historically been the most injured position in the NFL. Lots of running, stopping, cutting, picks get set and they are playing in small padding. Better have physical corners.

I think you can do what the top defenses this year have done...like Seattle. Go after big, physical corners because they are not highly valued. So the price for them is low and you can now spend that money and take that high draft pick on a couple of dynamic safeties. And it will cost you less in the end.

Church is not starting safety material. He's a backup that should be a special teams ace. I like Wilcox, but I think Kiffin's scheme favors the FS and requires more talent at the SS position. Even if Kiffin is fired, we really need better safety play. It's the one common denominator we have had in our terrible pass defense seasons. Our best pass defense season in recent memory was 2003...when we had Darren Woodson and 2nd year Roy Williams.






YR

If you dont get any passrush it doesnt matter who you have in the secondary.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

If you dont get any passrush it doesnt matter who you have in the secondary.

The offenses have changed. You're not going to get a pass rush a lot of the time because the pass patterns are so short. How quickly is Peyton Manning releasing the ball? Less than 2 seconds.

So you're going to need corners and DB's that can play physical coverage on the short passes and tackle well when the ball is caught. You need a pass rush on those longer routes, but even if you have one, teams will switch to the shorter passes to avoid the rush. And we also need safeties that know where the coverage is supposed to be unlike Barry Church who constantly misses assignments.




YR

 

[LatinMind]

The offenses have changed. You're not going to get a pass rush a lot of the time because the pass patterns are so short. How quickly is Peyton Manning releasing the ball? Less than 2 seconds.

So you're going to need corners and DB's that can play physical coverage on the short passes and tackle well when the ball is caught. You need a pass rush on those longer routes, but even if you have one, teams will switch to the shorter passes to avoid the rush. And we also need safeties that know where the coverage is supposed to be unlike Barry Church who constantly misses assignments.




YR

Well if the passes are getting there quickly it still puts more emphasis on Lbers then Safety. Especially in a tampa 2 where the FS is more about covering over top of a CB. If you have pressure ur forcing that Qb to get the ball out alot quicker then he would like, and before the Wrs are into the the FS/SS space.

I agree on Church at this moment. But you have to remember this is basically his first yr starting. You get that knowledge with game experience. Church though should be played more up in the box.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

Well if the passes are getting there quickly it still puts more emphasis on Lbers then Safety. Especially in a tampa 2 where the FS is more about covering over top of a CB. If you have pressure ur forcing that Qb to get the ball out alot quicker then he would like, and before the Wrs are into the the FS/SS space.

I agree on Church at this moment. But you have to remember this is basically his first yr starting. You get that knowledge with game experience. Church though should be played more up in the box.

The LB's on short passes get more in the way of the passing lane. The safeties still have coverage responsibilities and we don't play Cover 2 all of the time. Maybe 50% at most. Teams use a lot of 4 WR personnel or 3 WR and 1 pass receiving TE, so the safeties often have to play man. There is also a lot of switching of assignments and being able to read what the offense is doing and figuring out where to help out. It's very much like the tight end position for the offense, you need very smart players because they need to figure out where to go depending on what the other side of the ball is doing. Church also plays in the box quite often. In fact, in the Giants game he was basically the weakside linebacker he was in the box so often.

LB is a problem because Carter has fallen off the face of the earth. Teams are playing much more man-to-man and more offenses like San Diego are employing pass receiving backs like Danny Woodhead and Giovanni Bernard because they can possibly get a good mismatch against a LB or poor coverage safety and the rest of the defense can't help because they are playing man-to-man.

I think it's safe to say that since the last Super Bowl the pass defense has been, at best, suspect. We've had some tremendous pass rushes, particularly in the Wade era. And the defense was still suspect. The one year where it was legitimately good was 2003, when we had Darren Woodson and Roy Wiliams at safety. While Newman wasn't a physical corner (nor was Aaron Glenn), they could tackle pretty well (outside of when Newman was playing hurt). And Mario Edwards, for all of his faults, was a solid tackler as well.

In the end, that pass defense fizzled down the stretch. Mainly because we didn't have a pass rush. However, it was still the best pass defense we've had since 2000 and I think safety play was the reason. In '04, Woodson got injured and had to retire and the pass defense fell apart. And when you look at the top pass defenses each year, they almost always have excellent safeties.

To me, it's not a coincidence.


YR

 

[visionary]

The LB's on short passes get more in the way of the passing lane. The safeties still have coverage responsibilities and we don't play Cover 2 all of the time. Maybe 50% at most. Teams use a lot of 4 WR personnel or 3 WR and 1 pass receiving TE, so the safeties often have to play man. There is also a lot of switching of assignments and being able to read what the offense is doing and figuring out where to help out. It's very much like the tight end position for the offense, you need very smart players because they need to figure out where to go depending on what the other side of the ball is doing. Church also plays in the box quite often. In fact, in the Giants game he was basically the weakside linebacker he was in the box so often.

LB is a problem because Carter has fallen off the face of the earth. Teams are playing much more man-to-man and more offenses like San Diego are employing pass receiving backs like Danny Woodhead and Giovanni Bernard because they can possibly get a good mismatch against a LB or poor coverage safety and the rest of the defense can't help because they are playing man-to-man.

I think it's safe to say that since the last Super Bowl the pass defense has been, at best, suspect. We've had some tremendous pass rushes, particularly in the Wade era. And the defense was still suspect. The one year where it was legitimately good was 2003, when we had Darren Woodson and Roy Wiliams at safety. While Newman wasn't a physical corner (nor was Aaron Glenn), they could tackle pretty well (outside of when Newman was playing hurt). And Mario Edwards, for all of his faults, was a solid tackler as well.

In the end, that pass defense fizzled down the stretch. Mainly because we didn't have a pass rush. However, it was still the best pass defense we've had since 2000 and I think safety play was the reason. In '04, Woodson got injured and had to retire and the pass defense fell apart. And when you look at the top pass defenses each year, they almost always have excellent safeties.

To me, it's not a coincidence.


YR

agree with you on safeties, YR
biggest needs in my mind still remain DL, FS, and OL
carter has too much talent, he needs someone to light a fire in his belly

 

[Yakuza Rich]

agree with you on safeties, YR
biggest needs in my mind still remain DL, FS, and OL
carter has too much talent, he needs someone to light a fire in his belly

I agree that D-Line is the top priority. I'd like to see us franchise Hatcher. We can keep Ware for another year (yes, I have faith in him). I would probably look to draft a strong side DE. That way we can make him the premier pass rusher after we cut Ware after 2014.

LB I think we can look for a reasonably priced FA that can play both the WILL and the MIKE. Perhaps look to move Carter to the SAM. This way we have somebody to compete for the WILL spot and if Lee gets injured, we've got a replacement. Somebody like a Jon Beason type would be nice.

Not so worried about FS as I am SS. Barry Church is not starting NFL material. He's a backup and nice special teams player. It would be nice to see a daring defensive mind to try and put Church at the WILL. I think he could do it.

I don't see much trouble with the O-Line, particularly with how Bernardeau has played since Waters got injured. Free and Smith both playing well. I'm not thrilled with Leary, particularly with his knees, but he's done well considering that he's basically a rookie. We need more depth there than anything else.

I know RB is a concern, but I would just find a good short yardage back. That way if Murray gets hurt, we can make Dunbar the starter and use the short yardage back in those situations where Dunbar probably isn't that good at.

I think our 1st priority should be to find out what is causing all of these hamstring issues. Otherwise we'll just keep running into the same problems.






YR

 

[xwalker]

They say that the Tampa-2 is a zone coverage defense, but I remember Ronde Barber playing a style that I would describe as man-under. He would often be physical with the WR off the line like press-man coverage but was otherwise in a zone where the Safety had deep responsibility and the LBs covered the inside. This disrupted the quick passes but allowed him to be aggressive because he was not worried about carrying the WR deep or across the field.