Twitter: ESPN Analyst Louis Riddick on Cowboys 2013 Defense

[jobberone]

You mean other than stating the obvious?

Heck, just about everyone on this board could do that job.

Yeah and a few who would rather die first.

 

[jobberone]

Sounds like a boxer.

LOL. Riddick Bowe's cousin

 

[Toruk_Makto]

What qualifies our current group who will receive significant snaps to be a "far more legitimate group of defensive linemen."

We have second-round choice DeMarcus Lawrence (vs. second-round choice Everette Brown), Jeremy Mincey (vs. DeMarcus Ware), Henry Melton (vs. Jason Hatcher), Terrell McClain (vs. Landon Cohen), Tyrone Crawford (vs. Jarius Wynn), Ben Bass (vs. Corey Irvin), George Selvie, Nick Hayden, Anthony Spencer (vs. Edgar Jones), Amobi Okoye (vs. Drake Nevis), Ben Gardner (vs. Jason Vega), Dartwan Bush (vs. Jerome Long), Ken Bishop (vs. Marvin Austin), Caesar Rayford, Martez Wilson, Davon Coleman (vs. Frank Kearse)

So is the defense better because we don't know if Lawrence is a bust while we do know Brown is one?

Is the defense better with Mincey and his three sacks the last time he started 16 games (and two sacks last year) vs. Ware and his six sacks in 13 games, with Ware also providing more pressure?

Is the defense better with Melton coming off injury vs. Hatcher's 11 sacks last year?

Is the defense better McClain having not started a game last year and finishing with 10 tackles vs. Cohen having 14 tackles in 13 games and 3 starts with Chicago?

Is the defense better with Tyrone Crawford coming off injury (after totaling 20 tackles in his only season) vs. Wynn who has had at least one sack each year he's played, including 19 tackles and 3 sacks the one year he played in 16 games?

Is the defense better with Bass, who has only played in two games with one tackle, coming off injury vs. Irvin, who had three tackles in six games for Dallas last year?

I'll quit there because hopefully my point is made.

I'm not saying I want any of the scrubs back that we had last year, just that we don't know if we've replaced them with similar scrubs. This group certainly doesn't have to turn out to be any more legitimate than those, which included several early-round draft choices that someone once thought wouldn't be scrubs either.

The unknown is always more excited than the known, and I certainly hope this group turns out better.

You really need to have it explained the difference in working with a group of guys you've hand picked all off-season? OTAs and mini camps... Verses guys you sign on Wednesday to play on Sunday?

Really?

 

[Toruk_Makto]

Ware will have one of his usual years in Denver. A dozen sacks at the minimum.

I get that we haven't seen it much and so people are shocked by it happening in Dallas and consider it mismanagement.... But... It'd ALWAYS better to let a guy go a year early than a year late.

Bill over in NE and Ozzie up in Bmore have made it a habit. I'd say it's worked out well for them.

We should be celebrating its occurrence here in Dallas rather than cursing it.

 

[xwalker]

What qualifies our current group who will receive significant snaps to be a "far more legitimate group of defensive linemen."

We have second-round choice DeMarcus Lawrence (vs. second-round choice Everette Brown), Jeremy Mincey (vs. DeMarcus Ware), Henry Melton (vs. Jason Hatcher), Terrell McClain (vs. Landon Cohen), Tyrone Crawford (vs. Jarius Wynn), Ben Bass (vs. Corey Irvin), George Selvie, Nick Hayden, Anthony Spencer (vs. Edgar Jones), Amobi Okoye (vs. Drake Nevis), Ben Gardner (vs. Jason Vega), Dartwan Bush (vs. Jerome Long), Ken Bishop (vs. Marvin Austin), Caesar Rayford, Martez Wilson, Davon Coleman (vs. Frank Kearse)

So is the defense better because we don't know if Lawrence is a bust while we do know Brown is one?

Is the defense better with Mincey and his three sacks the last time he started 16 games (and two sacks last year) vs. Ware and his six sacks in 13 games, with Ware also providing more pressure?

Is the defense better with Melton coming off injury vs. Hatcher's 11 sacks last year?

Is the defense better McClain having not started a game last year and finishing with 10 tackles vs. Cohen having 14 tackles in 13 games and 3 starts with Chicago?

Is the defense better with Tyrone Crawford coming off injury (after totaling 20 tackles in his only season) vs. Wynn who has had at least one sack each year he's played, including 19 tackles and 3 sacks the one year he played in 16 games?

Is the defense better with Bass, who has only played in two games with one tackle, coming off injury vs. Irvin, who had three tackles in six games for Dallas last year?

I'll quit there because hopefully my point is made.

I'm not saying I want any of the scrubs back that we had last year, just that we don't know if we've replaced them with similar scrubs. This group certainly doesn't have to turn out to be any more legitimate than those, which included several early-round draft choices that someone once thought wouldn't be scrubs either.

The unknown is always more excited than the known, and I certainly hope this group turns out better.

The problem is that if you include the games that Ware missed and how many snaps he missed in the games that he did play, he probably played about 40% of the snaps for the season. The backup that got the most snaps appeared to be Everette Brown followed by Wilber and Wynn. That would mean that Brown/Wilber/Wynn played about 60% of the snaps at RDE. Those snaps are likely to go to Lawrence and Mincey this season. If Lawrence is not better than Brown then all hope is lost for this scouting dept. Mincey is a solid but unspectacular DE which is more than you can say about Brown/Wilber/Wynn. That all adds up to them being better 60% of the time this season and not quite as good 40% of the time.

 

[dfense]

If this team can waste millions on an irrelevant player like Brandon Carr they can pay Ware.

The only way this was a good decision is if Ware truly is shot physically, which I don't believe to be the case.

I'm a big Ware fan, but he's breaking down. He would impress me this year if he gets at least one sack in each of the last 4 games. My bet is, he'll be playing injured like the warrior he is in those games, but getting pushed around again. If they paid him to stay, it would be another year not looking for his replacement. It's tough to watch him get 6 sacks when a guy like Selvie gets 8 on effort alone and gets paid less than a fraction of what Ware would get..

 

[DCBoysfan]

LOL. Riddick Bowe's cousin

Thats a good one.

 

[gimmesix]

The problem is that if you include the games that Ware missed and how many snaps he missed in the games that he did play, he probably played about 40% of the snaps for the season. The backup that got the most snaps appeared to be Everette Brown followed by Wilber and Wynn. That would mean that Brown/Wilber/Wynn played about 60% of the snaps at RDE. Those snaps are likely to go to Lawrence and Mincey this season. If Lawrence is not better than Brown then all hope is lost for this scouting dept. Mincey is a solid but unspectacular DE which is more than you can say about Brown/Wilber/Wynn. That all adds up to them being better 60% of the time this season and not quite as good 40% of the time.

IF Lawrence isn't a bust like Brown was. I don't like to count on players being better until they show it, no matter what that says about the scouting department.

 

[gimmesix]

You really need to have it explained the difference in working with a group of guys you've hand picked all off-season? OTAs and mini camps... Verses guys you sign on Wednesday to play on Sunday?

Really?

Handpicked doesn't automatically mean better, especially when you are dealing with a bunch of guys who have little to show for their careers outside of Melton.

We seem to believe that Marinelli has some kind of magic powers because he got seven sacks out of Selvie last year. He couldn't turn a bunch of cast-offs into gold last year when Dallas had to keep bringing them in in bunches, and there's no reason to believe that these players are suddenly become better than they have been because of Marinelli.

There's reason to hope, but no reason to believe.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

Handpicked doesn't automatically mean better, especially when you are dealing with a bunch of guys who have little to show for their careers outside of Melton.

We seem to believe that Marinelli has some kind of magic powers because he got seven sacks out of Selvie last year. He couldn't turn a bunch of cast-offs into gold last year when Dallas had to keep bringing them in in bunches, and there's no reason to believe that these players are suddenly become better than they have been because of Marinelli.

There's reason to hope, but no reason to believe.

Nothing is ever necessarily better. But that's a cop out answer. We are talking probability.

And it'd be stupid to think that having guys in your system all summer is not materially better than signing guys off a couch mid week.

Just such a silly thing to even have to argue.

And Selvie is a perfect example actually. We got him in camp and Rod had months to work with him. Rather than hours when guys showed up on Wednesday to play Sunday.

Rod has now had months with this entire group. Thanks for proving my point.

 

[silver]

Just take a look at the players we added on defense. I doubt any offensive coordinator around the league will be game planning to stop or contain any of them. Not one of our front seven guys possess any speed or strenght or a combination of the two to scare anybody. You can train Ben Bass all year long and at the end you still have ol Ben Bass, he's not turning into Reggie White anytime soon.

 

[gimmesix]

Nothing is ever necessarily better. But that's a cop out answer. We are talking probability.

And it'd be stupid to think that having guys in your system all summer is not materially better than signing guys off a couch mid week.

Just such a silly thing to even have to argue.

And Selvie is a perfect example actually. We got him in camp and Rod had months to work with him. Rather than hours when guys showed up on Wednesday to play Sunday.

Rod has now had months with this entire group. Thanks for proving my point.

So Houston had all summer to work with Terrell McClain last year and got what out of him exactly? 10 tackles and no starts.

So Green Bay had all summer to work with rookie first-round pick Datone Jones last year and got what out of him exactly? 10 tackles and 3.5 sacks ... which I hope we can get out of Lawrence at the least. (I picked Jones because he was drafted near the bottom of the first round and closest to Lawrence in 2013 at No. 26.)

Jacksonville had all summer to work with Jeremy Mincey, got 16 tackles and two sacks out of him in eight games (no starts) and released him.

Those guys we signed off the couch at least had an excuse for their mediocre play since they didn't have someone working with them all summer. Can we possibly get more out of the ones we've had all summer than their previous teams did, or more out the rookies than a lot of teams do? Certainly. But it'd be stupid to just think that's automatic because we've had them all summer.

There are reasons McClain and Mincey have been cut by other teams. There are reasons Lawrence was available at the top of the second round or Gardner and Bishop in the seventh round. Maybe we won't ever see those reasons in Dallas, but it's likely that we will at least see some of them.

Consider this quote by Mincey's former coach Gus Bradley, who bragged about Mincey's physical ability:

“I just think he had maybe too many distractions. To be in another environment where there are less of those I think maybe is good."

So do you believe that Mincey is in an environment where there are less distractions? We'll see.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

So Houston had all summer to work with Terrell McClain last year and got what out of him exactly? 10 tackles and no starts.

So Green Bay had all summer to work with rookie first-round pick Datone Jones last year and got what out of him exactly? 10 tackles and 3.5 sacks ... which I hope we can get out of Lawrence at the least.

Jacksonville had all summer to work with Jeremy Mincey, got 16 tackles and two sacks out of him in eight games (no starts) and released him.

Those guys we signed off the couch at least had an excuse for their mediocre play since they didn't have someone working with them all summer. Can we possibly get more out of the ones we've had all summer than their previous teams did, or more out the rookies than a lot of teams do? Certainly. But it'd be stupid to just think that's automatic because we've had them all summer.

There are reasons McClain and Mincey have been cut by other teams. There are reasons Lawrence was available at the top of the second round or Gardner and Bishop in the seventh round. Maybe we won't ever see those reasons in Dallas, but it's likely that we will.

Consider this quote by Mincey's former coach Gus Bradley, who bragged about Mincey's physical ability:



So do you believe that Mincey is in an environment where there are less distractions? We'll see.

The question was comparing this line to last year's.

You then proceeded to link our current guys to guys we signed off the street.

You seem unwilling or incapable of seeing the massive difference between having guys on your roster all summer to those you have on your roster for 3 days.

The point is even if the players are similar the former situation should lead to a better outcome than the latter. This is what we call common sense.

When you consider that these players on the roster are considered better (by most) to those we signed off the street last year... The obvious conclusion that this line SHOULD be more productive than last year's is self evident.

Well.... To everyone except you apparently.

 

[gimmesix]

Actually, Tank Carradine was drafted 40th in 2013, so he's the closest DE to Lawrence's spot, but he missed his rookie season.

 

[gimmesix]

The question was comparing this line to last year's.

You then proceeded to link our current guys to guys we signed off the street.

The comparison showed that some of our current guys haven't been better either last year or in their careers than those guys we signed off the street ... and certainly not better than the two we lost in free agency.

Your expectation seems to be that they will be better even if they haven't been because they've had all summer with Marinelli. My hope is that Marinelli will make them better, but my expectation is more in line with what Parcells always said, "You are what you are," which is what common sense should tell you.

It doesn't mean they won't prove to be better, but I see no reason to harbor unrealistic expectations for players who have flamed out elsewhere (just like those street free agents we signed) or haven't done anything yet because they are rookies (just like the countless other former draft picks we signed who flamed out elsewhere).

People tend to put unrealistic expectations on players because a) they are in a new situation or b) we simply haven't seen them before, but Mincey didn't get cut by Jacksonville because he was a great starter or reliable backup, McClain isn't on his fourth team in a four-year career because of his greatness.

Tell me what's the difference between McClain and Landon Cohen that makes McClain better?

McClain had 10 tackles in 16 games for Houston. Cohen had 15 tackles and in 15 games (3 starts) with Dallas and Chicago. So are we supposed to believe that McClain will be better because he had all summer to work with Marinelli, when Cohen was the better player last year when he went to Chicago after the season started while McClain had all summer to work with Wade Phillips?