ESPN Mosley: Ogletree turning heads in Dallas

[Stautner]

True and as a 4th WR his plays will still be limited but at least he will be getting them. Once you get down to 4th and 5th WR I would hope it is guys who have a future with the ball club

Gotta keep Ogletree because he does have the potential for a future. Between Crayton and Hurd though neither is probably long term. I just kind of like Crayton now because we got so many youngsters and having a more established guy keeps our butts covered a little.

 

[alancdc]

No... but they may make Roy Williams expendable.

:

I kid, I kid. [sort of]

Is it crazy to think that we could have 2 undrafted FA WR start over RW? Wow, I guess we have to look at this as glass half full that we found these players, but.

 

[WV Cowboy]

I root for the Dallas Cowboys, and not individual players.
I have my favorites like everyone does, but whoever helps us win is who I want in the game.

So without any bias on my part, .. what has anyone seen to think Roy Williams will rise up and be a No. 1 WR this season?

I'm not sure what has been his problem, but I just have not been impressed with him overall since he came to Dallas.

 

[speedkilz88]

Yeah, but supposedly everyone has jumped on the Ogletree bandwagon based on his game play, when the truth is he hasn't earned anything by his game play except a roster spot and a chance to continue to try and prove himself. I cana't give him credit for more until he gets more chances and is used to run a variety of pass routes.

Go ahead and put your head in the sand then, he's already done enough to get the coaches and a lot of us fans excited about his future.

 

[chuffly]

It doesn't matter. All that matters is what someone does, and until they do something you can't say they deserve credit for doing something. I can give a thousand excuses for why a lot of players don't do this or that, but in the end they have to go out and do it. The team would really suck if we just assumed things and put too much faith in guys that haven't proven anything yet.

And someone can't do anything if they aren't given the chance to flourish. If the Cowboys took this attitude last year, Austin would have never hit the field. Actually, they did sort of take this attitude with regard to Austin, and it almost bit them in the butt. Who knows what would have happened if Roy hadn't ever gone down with an injury.

These coaches see these guys every day in practice and should have a pretty good feeling of what they are capable of. From there, sometimes you have to just take a leap of faith. All I know is that Ogletree produced with every opportunity he was given last year in both the preseason and regular season. He apparently produced in practice as well since the coaching staff seems to be really high on him.

 

[Stautner]

I root for the Dallas Cowboys, and not individual players.
I have my favorites like everyone does, but whoever helps us win is who I want in the game.

So without any bias on my part, .. what has anyone seen to think Roy Williams will rise up and be a No. 1 WR this season?

I'm not sure what has been his problem, but I just have not been impressed with him overall since he came to Dallas.

I won't hold my breath on Roy becoming a No. 1.

Go ahead and put your head in the sand then, he's already done enough to get the coaches and a lot of us fans excited about his future.

You haven't paid very close attention to the discussion. I never said there wasn't reason to be exicted. In fact, I've said I like Ogletree too. I just said we can only be sure about what we have seen him do, which is catch 7 NFL passes, and mostly on uncontested bubble screens. Until we have seen him actually catch a number of NFL passes in a variety of pass patterns we can't say there is any proof that he is ready or able to handle a big role or to be as good as or better than Crayton. Sorry, but there is a lot more certainty in 200 NFL receptions than in 7.

 

[chuffly]

I won't hold my breath on Roy becoming a No. 1.



You haven't paid very close attention to the discussion. I never said there wasn't reason to be exicted. In fact, I've said I like Ogletree too. I just said we can only be sure about what we have seen him do, which is catch 7 NFL passes, and mostly on uncontested bubble screens. Until we have seen him actually catch a number of NFL passes in a variety of pass patterns we can't say there is any proof that he is ready or able to handle a big role or to be as good as or better than Crayton. Sorry, but there is a lot more certainty in 200 NFL receptions than in 7.

Did you watch the preseason? He caught some passes there too. Some of them were even against quality NFL cornerbacks, like Nate Clements.

 

[Stautner]

And someone can't do anything if they aren't given the chance to flourish. If the Cowboys took this attitude last year, Austin would have never hit the field. Actually, they did sort of take this attitude with regard to Austin, and it almost bit them in the butt. Who knows what would have happened if Roy hadn't ever gone down with an injury.

These coaches see these guys every day in practice and should have a pretty good feeling of what they are capable of. From there, sometimes you have to just take a leap of faith. All I know is that Ogletree produced with every opportunity he was given last year in both the preseason and regular season. He apparently produced in practice as well since the coaching staff seems to be really high on him.

You haven't paid attention to the discussion either.

I've never said he doesn't deserve a chance. I'm all for giving him chances to show me something. I've just said that until he gets the chance to show it, we can't be sure of it.

As for Austin, he was on the team for 3 years before last year. He wasn't given the chance to play a big role after one year and 7 uncontested bubble screen receptions, so your own analogy actually works against you.

 

[Stautner]

Did you watch the preseason? He caught some passes there too. Some of them were even against quality NFL cornerbacks, like Nate Clements.

That's fine. That means is he can be put in the same category as Jamaica Rector and Reggie Swinton.

Do you have any idea how many players show a little something one preseason and fade, or even catch a handful of passes as a rookie and never go much beyond that, or if they do it may take a few years?

What does everyone have against Ogletree actually proving he can do certain things and grow into a bigger role as he does? Why is everyone so ready to claim he has already proven things he hasn't?

Why not have him come out and get more time in this training camp and this preseason and actually run some downfield routes and catch some passes in traffic over the middle? If he does that, he gets more credibility than a half dozen uncontested bubble screens could ever get him.

 

[chuffly]

That's fine. That means is he can be put in the same category as Jamaica Rector and Reggie Swinton.

Were Reggie Swinton and Jamaica Rector making plays against Pro Bowl-caliber cornerbacks? And Jamaica Rector isn't really even a comparison here. Did Jamaica Rector force his way onto the field during a playoff run with a fairly decent receiving corps in place during his rookie year? Can you even say the same for Swinton?

Do you have any idea how many players show a little something one preseason and fade, or even catch a handful of passes as a rookie and never go much beyond that, or if they do it may take a few years?

Do you know how many Patrick Crayton-caliber receivers there are in this league?

What does everyone have against Ogletree actually proving he can do certain things and grow into a bigger role as he does? Why is everyone so ready to claim he has already proven things he hasn't?

I don't have anything against him proving something because he already has.

Why not have him come out and get more time in this training camp and this preseason and actually run some downfield routes and catch some passes in traffic over the middle? If he does that, he gets more credibility than a half dozen uncontested bubble screens could ever get him.

I'm pretty sure he's probably done this plenty in practice. Probably did it in preseason too (I can't remember all of his catches but I do remember him flashing a little bit of everything). I know people like Theebs who were at regular season games said they saw him running open deep multiple times but Tony didn't see him for whatever reason.

 

[chuffly]

You haven't paid attention to the discussion either.

I've never said he doesn't deserve a chance. I'm all for giving him chances to show me something. I've just said that until he gets the chance to show it, we can't be sure of it.

As for Austin, he was on the team for 3 years before last year. He wasn't given the chance to play a big role after one year and 7 uncontested bubble screen receptions, so your own analogy actually works against you.

The problem is I've paid attention to the discussion, and all you've really done here is use circular logic. You complain that he hasn't shown anything yet so you want to bring back a player that will knock him down to fifth on the depth chart, which will again never give him the opportunity to show something. So you'd be back here complaining next year that he only has a handful of receptions.

How's he ever going to get a chance as the fifth wide receiver? And if you don't think he's going to be the fifth wide receiver, why do you think Patrick Crayton will be happy in that position? And why would the Cowboys pay ~$2 million for a 5th wide receiver?

As for Miles, I don't recall him being a 5th wide receiver after Glenn got hurt in his second year. So he was getting opportunities. Again, all anybody is asking here is for Ogletree to be the 4th wide receiver on the depth chart. I don't know why you are upset about this, a 4th wide receiver isn't going to break your season, which is the reason why Crayton is pretty expendable at this point.

 

[nyc-cowboy]

That's fine. That means is he can be put in the same category as Jamaica Rector and Reggie Swinton.

Do you have any idea how many players show a little something one preseason and fade, or even catch a handful of passes as a rookie and never go much beyond that, or if they do it may take a few years?

What does everyone have against Ogletree actually proving he can do certain things and grow into a bigger role as he does? Why is everyone so ready to claim he has already proven things he hasn't?

Why not have him come out and get more time in this training camp and this preseason and actually run some downfield routes and catch some passes in traffic over the middle? If he does that, he gets more credibility than a half dozen uncontested bubble screens could ever get him.

I think most are excited about Tree cause of what he has shown in the very little time that he had.
He has that burst off the line, he can beat the jam by the CB, has quickness AND speed, seems to run nice routes with sharp cuts, had a very nice catch vs NO where he kept his feet inbounds and seems to have Tony s trust.

Does he still have a ways to go - sure he does but he sure has some pretty good tools there.

The problem for him is going to be getting the ball, cause you just know they are going to give Roy every opportunity to prove that he was worth trading for (which will be nearly impossible) plus they'er going to want to work Dez in, and not to mention Miles,Wit, Marty and Felix coming out of the backfield.
His best opportunity will come early in the season - if Crayton is not on the team - while Dez gets acclimated to the pro game.

 

[Stautner]

Were Reggie Swinton and Jamaica Rector making plays against Pro Bowl-caliber cornerbacks? And Jamaica Rector isn't really even a comparison here. Did Jamaica Rector force his way onto the field during a playoff run with a fairly decent receiving corps in place during his rookie year? Can you even say the same for Swinton?

You are acting as if last preseason Ogletree routinely caught passes against Pro-Bowl caliber CB's, and you are also ignoring that it was preseason where there may have been no quality pass rushers in the game, no experienced safeties, etc ...... preseason is not the real thing, only a simulation. Besides, rRector caught 20 passes for 210 yards one preseason. It just happens - it doesn't prove much. It's one preseason one year.

Do you know how many Patrick Crayton-caliber receivers there are in this league?

A hell of a lot fewer than there are receivers that have caught 7 NFL passes and never did much more. The day 7 NFL receptions and one preseason outweighs 200 NFL receptions and 6 NFL preseasons is the day the NFL starts going down the tubes. I'm glad you aren't running the team.

I don't have anything against him proving something because he already has.

7 NFL receptions on uncontested bubble screens is proof of a high quality NFL receiver? It is proof of being a better player than one who has 200 receptions, has caught passes over the middle just before getting hit by a safety, and who has been a regular part of NFL game plans? Once again, I'm glad you aren't running the team.

I'm pretty sure he's probably done this plenty in practice. Probably did it in preseason too (I can't remember all of his catches but I do remember him flashing a little bit of everything). I know people like Theebs who were at regular season games said they saw him running open deep multiple times but Tony didn't see him for whatever reason.

Sure he's done things in practice. That's whay he made the team to begin with. Same applies to Miles Austin, yet it took him 3 years of development to start playing a serious role. As for running open deep, great. Hell, I could take a top US sprinter and do that. When it results in catches it will be proof.

Apparently the words "potential" and "proof" are interchangeable in your vocabulary, but they really aren't the same thing. Proof comes in the doing, not in showing the potential for doing.

 

[speedkilz88]

I don't believe Jamaica Rector ever made the squad so I don't know why he's even in the discussion.

 

[chuffly]

You are acting as if last preseason Ogletree routinely caught passes against Pro-Bowl caliber CB's, and you are also ignoring that it was preseason where there may have been no quality pass rushers in the game, no experienced safeties, etc ...... preseason is not the real thing, only a simulation. Besides, rRector caught 20 passes for 210 yards one preseason. It just happens - it doesn't prove much. It's one preseason one year.



A hell of a lot fewer than there are receivers that have caught 7 NFL passes and never did much more. The day 7 NFL receptions and one preseason outweighs 200 NFL receptions and 6 NFL preseasons is the day the NFL starts going down the tubes. I'm glad you aren't running the team.



7 NFL receptions on uncontested bubble screens is proof of a high quality NFL receiver? It is proof of being a better player than one who has 200 receptions, has caught passes over the middle just before getting hit by a safety, and who has been a regular part of NFL game plans? Once again, I'm glad you aren't running the team.



Sure he's done things in practice. That's whay he made the team to begin with. Same applies to Miles Austin, yet it took him 3 years of development to start playing a serious role. As for running open deep, great. Hell, I could take a top US sprinter and do that. When it results in catches it will be proof.

Apparently the words "potential" and "proof" are interchangeable in your vocabulary, but they really aren't the same thing. Proof comes in the doing, not in showing the potential for doing.

Sigh. The sad thing that is you don't realize your logic very easily could be applied to Dez Bryant. How many NFL catches does he have? I could just as easily bring up the many great college players that flamed out in the NFL. Should we just deny Dez of opportunities simply due to the fact that he hasn't had any opportunities yet? No, it would be foolish because of all the talent Dez has flashed before and continues to flash in practice opportunities.

A player can only make the most of the opportunities he's given. You don't seem willing to give players opportunities simply due to the fact that you haven't given them opportunities before. If the only reason you are denying Ogletree the opportunity to be ahead of Crayton on the depth chart is because he hasn't had a lot of opportunities in a live game, how is he ever going to get those opportunities?

Again, it's circular logic you are using here. The only thing that counts is what a player does in the game. So you're not going to give him any opportunities because he hasn't done it in a game. And the reason he hasn't had a chance to do it in a game is that you never gave him opportunities to do it in a game. Since you don't seem willing to consider ANY outside circumstances, it becomes a circular argument.

And let me reiterate, we are talking about making Ogletree the #4 wide receiver, not the cog of the team. If this team fails because it has the wrong #4 wide receiver, I'm pretty sure it would be the first. So let's not act like cutting Crayton to provide a little playing time for Ogletree is going sink the Titanic here. When you throw in the fact that Crayton doesn't seem to want to be the #4 or #5 receiver anyways, it's makes for a pretty easy decision.

 

[Stautner]

The problem is I've paid attention to the discussion, and all you've really done here is use circular logic. You complain that he hasn't shown anything yet so you want to bring back a player that will knock him down to fifth on the depth chart, which will again never give him the opportunity to show something. So you'd be back here complaining next year that he only has a handful of receptions.

How's he ever going to get a chance as the fifth wide receiver? And if you don't think he's going to be the fifth wide receiver, why do you think Patrick Crayton will be happy in that position? And why would the Cowboys pay ~$2 million for a 5th wide receiver?

As for Miles, I don't recall him being a 5th wide receiver after Glenn got hurt in his second year. So he was getting opportunities. Again, all anybody is asking here is for Ogletree to be the 4th wide receiver on the depth chart. I don't know why you are upset about this, a 4th wide receiver isn't going to break your season, which is the reason why Crayton is pretty expendable at this point.

First, you didn't pay attention because you acted as if I were against Ogletree getting a chance. I never said that, and I'm all for it.

Second, if Crayton knocks Ogletree back to the No. 5 WR, then Ogletree isn't quite as ready as you guys all claim he is.

Third, who cares if Crayton is happy as the 5th receiver if that's what he earns? This isn't a matter of asking the players for their permission on where to put them on the depth chart, it's a matter of keeping your best players and seeing what they earn.

As for Miles in his second year, he only caaught 5 passes all year despite Glenn getting hurt, so you aren't remembering right. Hurd was the one that got the extra play, not Austin, and we see where Hurd is now. The truth is it's not uncommon for even WR's who are highly rated prospects coming out of college to learn and develop for a few years, much less undrafted free agents.

I don't believe Jamaica Rector ever made the squad so I don't know why he's even in the discussion.

That's exactly the point. He's claimiing that Ogletree having a pretty good preseason last year helps prove he is a high quality NFL receiver, and the example of Rector shows that preseason shows no such thing. Hell, Ogletree didn't have half the preseason Rector did. Frankly we all should be glad that preseason isn't treated as a true measure because otherwise we might be stuck with Rector and Ogletree may not have been given a shot.

By the way, all this talk about Ogletree having success against Nate Clements .... the truth is Ogletree caught 2 passes in that game. Not exactly a schooling, nor do we know if he caught both passes against Clements.

 

[speedkilz88]

First, you didn't pay attention because you acted as if I were against Ogletree getting a chance. I never said that, and I'm all for it.

Second, if Crayton knocks Ogletree back to the No. 5 WR, then Ogletree isn't quite as ready as you guys all claim he is.

Third, who cares if Crayton is happy as the 5th receiver if that's what he earns? This isn't a matter of asking the players for their permission on where to put them on the depth chart, it's a matter of keeping your best players and seeing what they earn.

As for Miles in his second year, he only caaught 5 passes all year despite Glenn getting hurt, so you aren't remembering right. Hurd was the one that got the extra play, not Austin, and we see where Hurd is now. The truth is it's not uncommon for even WR's who are highly rated prospects coming out of college to learn and develop for a few years, much less undrafted free agents.



That's exactly the point. He's claimiing that Ogletree having a pretty good preseason last year helps prove he is a high quality NFL receiver, and the example of Rector shows that preseason shows no such thing. Hell, Ogletree didn't have half the preseason Rector did. Frankly we all should be glad that preseason isn't treated as a true measure because otherwise we might be stuck with Rector and Ogletree may not have been given a shot.

By the way, all this talk about Ogletree having success against Nate Clements .... the truth is Ogletree caught 2 passes in that game. Not exactly a schooling, nor do we know if he caught both passes against Clements.

I dispute that and I know the coaches would agree. Numbers aren't the whole story.

 

[chuffly]

First, you didn't pay attention because you acted as if I were against Ogletree getting a chance. I never said that, and I'm all for it.

How is he going to get opportunities as the #5 wide receiver?

Second, if Crayton knocks Ogletree back to the No. 5 WR, then Ogletree isn't quite as ready as you guys all claim he is.

The Cowboys won't keep Crayton on the team to be a #5 wide receiver because they aren't going to pay $2 million for that luxury. This is part of the reason he wants out. He can see the writing on the wall and knows he will be camp fodder.

Third, who cares if Crayton is happy as the 5th receiver if that's what he earns? This isn't a matter of asking the players for their permission on where to put them on the depth chart, it's a matter of keeping your best players and seeing what they earn.

This doesn't change that the Cowboys very likely won't pay him $2 million for a #5 WR, which is what you are proposing here.

As for Miles in his second year, he only caaught 5 passes all year despite Glenn getting hurt, so you aren't remembering right. Hurd was the one that got the extra play, not Austin, and we see where Hurd is now. The truth is it's not uncommon for even WR's who are highly rated prospects coming out of college to learn and develop for a few years, much less undrafted free agents.

No I'm pretty confident that I'm remembering right. It doesn't matter how many passes he caught, all I argued was who was ahead of him on the depth chart. You wanna name the four receivers who were ahead of him to prove me wrong instead of throwing out some irrelevant stat. All you are doing is strengthening my point that there's no point in getting worked up about the #4 wide receiver anyways.

 

[chuffly]

Second, if Crayton knocks Ogletree back to the No. 5 WR, then Ogletree isn't quite as ready as you guys all claim he is.

One more thing on this point. If the Cowboys use your logic, Ogletree doesn't ever get a chance to beat Crayton out. Crayton has to enter the season as the #4 wide receiver because you've stated that nothing Ogletree has done in practice, camp, or preseason is worthy of being considered as evidence of ability. As you've mentioned, a bunch of busts have looked good then too.

Therefore, Ogletree enters the season as the #5 WR by default since he can't do anything in camp or preseason this year to change that (as you've made perfectly clear). And if he enters the season as the #5 WR, when is he going to get all of these opportunities when it matters to beat out Crayton? Teams don't exactly give the #5 WR a lot of time out on the field.

This is why your dismissal of anything Ogletree has demonstrated outside of regular season catches is absurd, especially when he's had so few chances during the regular season. The coaching staff is very high on him, and I think it's because he's been showing a lot of flashes outside of regular season games. If he keeps rising to the occasion on every opportunity given, they are going to have to eventually make a leap of faith on the guy.

By the way, all this talk about Ogletree having success against Nate Clements .... the truth is Ogletree caught 2 passes in that game. Not exactly a schooling, nor do we know if he caught both passes against Clements.

Actually we do know that he caught two passes against Clements. All you have to do is search the forums for game recaps of that preseason game. There were a number of the posters talking about it after the game, and it was one of the reasons why the buzz on him started growing.

As far as whether or not it was "a schooling" is irrelevant. He didn't play the entire game so he wasn't going to put up huge numbers. Furthermore, "schooling" high quality cornerbacks isn't something that's generally required from #4 wide receivers. I only pointed this out to distinguish him from the camp fodder who ran up their stats against bottom-of-the-roster cornerbacks.

 

[john van brocklin]

Crayton to Miami for a 7th rounder .......... either now , or at the end of camp