ESPN Mosley: Ogletree turning heads in Dallas

[SilverStarCowboy]

Manuel Johnson has all the natural recieving ability to excel above Crayton in his NFL tenure.

In 2010 for Dallas he's a better prospect than Sam Hurd, who possibly could catch a late round selection from a team like Miami who values versatility at WR/STs.

 

[Stautner]

One more thing on this point. If the Cowboys use your logic, Ogletree doesn't ever get a chance to beat Crayton out. Crayton has to enter the season as the #4 wide receiver because you've stated that nothing Ogletree has done in practice, camp, or preseason is worthy of being considered as evidence of ability. As you've mentioned, a bunch of busts have looked good then too.

Therefore, Ogletree enters the season as the #5 WR by default since he can't do anything in camp or preseason this year to change that (as you've made perfectly clear). And if he enters the season as the #5 WR, when is he going to get all of these opportunities when it matters to beat out Crayton? Teams don't exactly give the #5 WR a lot of time out on the field.

This is why your dismissal of anything Ogletree has demonstrated outside of regular season catches is absurd, especially when he's had so few chances during the regular season. The coaching staff is very high on him, and I think it's because he's been showing a lot of flashes outside of regular season games. If he keeps rising to the occasion on every opportunity given, they are going to have to eventually make a leap of faith on the guy.

Actually we do know that he caught two passes against Clements. All you have to do is search the forums for game recaps of that preseason game. There were a number of the posters talking about it after the game, and it was one of the reasons why the buzz on him started growing.

As far as whether or not it was "a schooling" is irrelevant. He didn't play the entire game so he wasn't going to put up huge numbers. Furthermore, "schooling" high quality cornerbacks isn't something that's generally required from #4 wide receivers. I only pointed this out to distinguish him from the camp fodder who ran up their stats against bottom-of-the-roster cornerbacks.

This is hogwash, because by your logic no young player who enters camp at a certain spot on the depth chart would ever get a chance to move up. Austin hadn't done anything in previous seasons, yet he passed Crayton on the depth chart, right? That's because he had been with the team for 3 previous years, developing and showing the team what he could do.

And where did I make it clear that Ogletree can't change things? I said ONE preseason and 7 NFL catches don't prove anything. A second TC and preseason gives him a little more credibility, if he does well.

As for giving No. 5's playing time, your assertion that players lower on the depth chart don't get chances to play in TC and preseason completely goes againt what happens every preseason. Remember the example of Jamaica Rector - 20 catches for 200+ yards in a preaseason, all for a guy who was put on the practice squad. Hell, Patrick Crayton was in that same position several eyars ago. First and second teamers sit a lot to avoid preseason injury, giving the others a fair amount of playing time. You know this though - right? Surely you've noticed. Right?

All I've said is that he should be given time to prove himself rather than call him proven before he has yet done the things he need to prove it.

For example, how can you say a guy will be tough catching passes over the middle with a safety coming up to hit him if he hasn't yet done it? That's where the men are separated from the boys, and long considered one of the key factors in determining if a guy can be a quality NFL WR. I'm not saying Ogletree can't or won't do it, but he hasn't proven it yet, no matter how much you may want to claim a bubble screen reception proves it.

 

[CATCH17]

Manuel Johnson has all the natural recieving ability to excel above Crayton in his NFL tenure.

In 2010 for Dallas he's a better prospect than Sam Hurd, who possibly could catch a late round selection from a team like Miami who values versatility at WR/STs.

So does Charles Rogers. Doesn't mean when the lights pop on they will be more effective than Crayton.

I doubt Manny Johnson ever produces in his career like Crayton.

 

[CATCH17]

This is hogwash, because by your logic no young player who enters camp at a certain spot on the depth chart would ever get a chance to move up. Austin hadn't done anything in previous seasons, yet he passed Crayton on the depth chart, right?

And where did I make it clear that Ogletree can't change things? I said ONE preseason and 7 NFL catches don't prove anything. A second TC and preseason gives him a little more credibility, if he does well.

As for giving No. 5's playing time, your assertion that players lower on the depth chart don't get chances to play in TC and preseason completely goes againt what happens every preseason. Remember the example of Jamaica Rector - 20 catches for 200+ yards in a preaseason, all for a guy who was put on the practice squad. Preseason is designed to look at everyone, and first and second teamers sit a lot to avoid preseason injury. You know this though - right? Surely you've noticed.

All I've said is that he should be given time to prove himself rather than call him proven before he has done the things he need to prove it.

For example, how can you say a guy will be tough catching passes over the middle with a safety coming up to hit him if he hasn't yet done it? That's where the men are separated from the boys, and long considered one of the key factors in determining if a guy can be a quality NFL WR. I'm not saying Ogletree can't or won't do it, but he hasn't proven it yet, no matter how much you may want to claim a bubble screen reception proves it.

So you think all this hype is coming from a preseason game and 7 catches?

People within are the ones saying this kid has the potential to be bigtime. Not just Cowboy fan.

With his natural speed and WR instincts and the situation he is in it seems inevitable that the guy is going to do some damage for us.

 

[speedkilz88]

This is hogwash, because by your logic no young player who enters camp at a certain spot on the depth chart would ever get a chance to move up. Austin hadn't done anything in previous seasons, yet he passed Crayton on the depth chart, right? That's because he had been with the team for 3 previous years, developing and showing the team what he could do.

And where did I make it clear that Ogletree can't change things? I said ONE preseason and 7 NFL catches don't prove anything. A second TC and preseason gives him a little more credibility, if he does well.

As for giving No. 5's playing time, your assertion that players lower on the depth chart don't get chances to play in TC and preseason completely goes againt what happens every preseason. Remember the example of Jamaica Rector - 20 catches for 200+ yards in a preaseason, all for a guy who was put on the practice squad. Hell, Patrick Crayton was in that same position several eyars ago. First and second teamers sit a lot to avoid preseason injury, giving the others a fair amount of playing time. You know this though - right? Surely you've noticed. Right?

All I've said is that he should be given time to prove himself rather than call him proven before he has yet done the things he need to prove it.

For example, how can you say a guy will be tough catching passes over the middle with a safety coming up to hit him if he hasn't yet done it? That's where the men are separated from the boys, and long considered one of the key factors in determining if a guy can be a quality NFL WR. I'm not saying Ogletree can't or won't do it, but he hasn't proven it yet, no matter how much you may want to claim a bubble screen reception proves it.

Austin didn't pass Crayton on the depth chart until after the Roy Williams injury and Austin had the big game in KC.

 

[Stautner]

So you think all this hype is coming from a preseason game and 7 catches?

People within are the ones saying this kid has the potential to be bigtime. Not just Cowboy fan.

With his natural speed and WR instincts and the situation he is in it seems inevitable that the guy is going to do some damage for us.

Hype is one thing. Players get hype all the time. Just because a coach says a player has a lot of potential and is showing them something is not the same as saying he is ready to play a significant role. The Cowboys talked up Miles Austin's huge potential for 3 years before he stepped into a significant role.

Austin didn't pass Crayton on the depth chart until after the Roy Williams injury and Austin had the big game in KC.

The point was that it is possible to pass someone on the depth chart. Austin didn't aimlessly wander on the field in that game without the coaches knowledge and start making plays before the coaches realized what was happening. The coaches saw the potential, knew Austin for 3 previous years, and put Austin in the position to have the big game.

 

[speedkilz88]

Hype is one thing. Players get hype all the time. Just because a coach says a player has a lot of potential and is showing them something is not the same as saying he is ready to play a significant role. The Cowboys talked up Miles Austin's huge potential for 3 years before he stepped into a significant role.



The point was that it is possible to pass someone on the depth chart. Austin didn't aimlessly wander on the field in that game without the coaches knowledge and start making plays before the coaches realized what was happening. The coaches saw the potential, knew Austin for 3 previous years, and put Austin in the position to have the big game.

:laugh2:Yeah, if you are lucky enough to replace an injured starter and catch 200 yds in a game. Had Roy not got injured we still wouldn't know anything about Austin.

 

[Stautner]

:laugh2:Yeah, if you are lucky enough to replace an injured starter and catch 200 yds in a game. Had Roy not got injured we still wouldn't know anything about Austin.

First, Roy getting hurt was not the first action Austin saw that year. He wasn't buried on the bench. He had 5 receptions for 81 yards and a TD in the first 4 games, and with Roy struggling that was almost certain to increase regardless of Roy's injury. The team was already working him in, but things accelerated with the injury.

Second, Williams was a high priced free agent just entering his first full season with the team. Was he supposed to sit from day one last year? How does that compare to Crayton being a career No. 3 who may not be any better than a No. 4 this year? The high priced former top draft pick that cost us a 1st and 3rd round draft pick was a bit more of a hurdle for Austin to leap than a career No. 3 WR who may not be able to do mor than No. 4 this year should be for Ogletree. Don't you think?

Third, it was Austin who got the additional chances after Roy went down, not Crayton, so we aren't just talking about Austin pushing ahead of an injured player, he also pushed ahead of an established 5 year veteran. Why are you so scared of Ogletree being able to do the same?

Look guys, we kept Ellis as insurance for a couple of years after drafting Spencer, and Spencer worked his way into a bigger role and eventually took over. That's all I'm talking about. Crayton is pretty close to a sure thing, so he provides a safety net, and if Ogletree proves that he is better, then so be it. I'm all for that.

But if you want me to take a bubble screen reception as proof that he can catch passes over the middle with a safety hitting him just after the ball gets to him, then you guys are being unreasonable. It doesn't matter if its lack of opportunity or lack of ability or what, a player only proves what he has shown he can do. If a running back spends a preseason running nothing but sweeps, he just hasn;t proved he can get the tough yards up the middle in short yardage situations. We have to see it to know it. Same applies to WR.

 

[chuffly]

This is hogwash, because by your logic no young player who enters camp at a certain spot on the depth chart would ever get a chance to move up. Austin hadn't done anything in previous seasons, yet he passed Crayton on the depth chart, right? That's because he had been with the team for 3 previous years, developing and showing the team what he could do.

And where did I make it clear that Ogletree can't change things? I said ONE preseason and 7 NFL catches don't prove anything. A second TC and preseason gives him a little more credibility, if he does well.

As for giving No. 5's playing time, your assertion that players lower on the depth chart don't get chances to play in TC and preseason completely goes againt what happens every preseason. Remember the example of Jamaica Rector - 20 catches for 200+ yards in a preaseason, all for a guy who was put on the practice squad. Hell, Patrick Crayton was in that same position several eyars ago. First and second teamers sit a lot to avoid preseason injury, giving the others a fair amount of playing time. You know this though - right? Surely you've noticed. Right?

All I've said is that he should be given time to prove himself rather than call him proven before he has yet done the things he need to prove it.

For example, how can you say a guy will be tough catching passes over the middle with a safety coming up to hit him if he hasn't yet done it? That's where the men are separated from the boys, and long considered one of the key factors in determining if a guy can be a quality NFL WR. I'm not saying Ogletree can't or won't do it, but he hasn't proven it yet, no matter how much you may want to claim a bubble screen reception proves it.

None of that was ever my logic or assertions, I was only trying to figure out why you seemed to think preseason and training camp were so worthless when I gave it as evidence of Ogletree's ability before. When I mentioned Ogletree's previous outstanding preseason and training camp (where he did manage to catch the ball over the middle in several games), you threw it out as not being worthy of considered evidence of Ogletree's ability. When I said that he made some nice plays against a quality cornerback like Nate Clements, you said it didn't mean anything because he didn't "school" him. I'm all for trying to separate the wheat from the chaff in preseason. We have already seen that with Ogletree in my opinion.

Apparently you now claim two years in a row is necessary to see. That makes more sense than what you were saying before, although I don't know why you think things are going to change so suddenly with Ogletree when all he's done is flash good signs over and over again. Plus add in the physical tools, and I think he's already at a higher point than Jamaica Rector ever was in the coaching staff's eyes.

 

[Stautner]

None of that was ever my logic or assertions, I was only trying to figure out why you seemed to think preseason and training camp were so worthless when I gave it as evidence of Ogletree's ability before. When I mentioned Ogletree's previous outstanding preseason and training camp (where he did manage to catch the ball over the middle in several games), you threw it out as evidence of Ogletree's ability. When I said that he made some nice plays against a quality cornerback like Nate Clements, you said it didn't mean anything because he didn't "school" him. I'm all for trying to separate the wheat from the chaff in preseason. We have already seen that with Ogletree in my opinion.

Apparently you now claim two years in a row is necessary to see. That makes more sense than what you were saying before, although I don't know why you think things are going to change so suddenly with Ogletree when all he's done is flash good signs over and over again. Plus add in the physical tools, and I think he's already at a higher point than Jamaica Rector ever was in the coaching staff's eyes.

This isn't new. I said from the beginning that the problem was that TC last year was only one year and that Ogletree's one TC and one 7 catch season does not trump Crayton's 6 training camps and 200 career catches. My point was never that TC is meaningless, just that one TC isn't proof because it's fairly common for guys to pop in an individual training camp and look good, but find it doesn't translate into being a quality player.

It's the difference between showing potential and providing actual proof.

My whole point is that the proof is in the doing, and in a big enough sample that it can be viewed as the norm rather than merely a look at potential.

Like I said before, I can't view 7 career catches mostly on bubble screens as proof that a guy will make the tough catches over the middle, hold onto the ball after big hits, consistently find the downfield seams, or consistently catch all manner of passes against all manner of competition, while running all manner of routes.

Once again, I'm not saying Ogletree can't do all that. I am excited about him too and I like his chances. Just that we need to see it before counting to heavily on it.