Feelings about the D-line

[JoeyBoy718]

I was just looking at the players and the stats of other teams that run 3-4 defenses. Obviously, the Cowboys are the only team without a starting NT between 325-350 lbs. Also, even in the most elite defenses, you don't see more than 1 or 2 sacks from the NT position. However, our DEs (if I can include Ratliff as DE for the sake of this post) put up numbers up there with the best of the 3-4 defenses. Elite pass-rush from the DE positions are about 5-7 sacks per DE. Some of the most elite 3-4 pass-rushing defenses are the 49ers, Cardinals and Ravens. With how great Jason Hatcher did at the position (4.5 sacks in 13 games, many as the backup) and with how good Ratliff can be, I think drafting a DE would be pointless. I think people are underestimating how good Hatcher was last season. We have a surplus of 3-4 DEs who can generate a pass-rush already on our roster. I think it would be a waste of a pick to spend the #14 on a 300 lb DE. That's just my opinion. What do you think?

 

[CF74]

I agree and I would add that NT has better value in the later rounds...

 

[btcutter]

DL is a NEED. We have Rat, Lissamore and Hatcher then whole bunch of JAGs....They get worn down in the 4th Q and very noticeably in Dec. There's definitely a correlation between why we do well at beginning of the years versus end.
Just watch the G men or the Boys of the 90's rotate in DL constantly. They can take on double teams and pass rush with energy. We need to rebuilt that rotation. Esp at the NT position. Rat is just too beat up when he plays so much.

 

[TheSport78]

I disagree. When Kenyon Coleman and Marcus Spears are getting serious playing time, you need to upgrade the DE position.

I like Lissemore but is he a full-time starter? Maybe, maybe not.

Hatcher has had his chances to show what he's got, and he has disappointed every time. Inconsistent against the run and can't stay healthy.

Spears is solid against the run but offers nothing in the pass rushing department.

This position needs upgrading. I don't think it's necessary to use a 1st round pick, but definitely in the 1st three rounds.

 

[SilverStarCowboy]

You're genuis.

 

[CowboysLaw87]

I think a DE with pass rushing potential a) exists in 3-4 schemes, and b) is necessary to boost this rush.

Justin Smith- 7.5 sacks
Calais Campbell- 8 sacks

It can be done. 3-4 DE's can be difference makers. Look at what Seymour meant to that early 2000's Pats defense. Look how the Packers took a big step back defensively when Cullen Jenkins left. And how impactful are those 2 guys listed above, along with Ngata... Watt... it can be done. It's not just the sacks either. We have to remember that the collapse of the pocket can represent a fatal disruption to the play for our opponent. What happens when the QB is forced off his spot? Interceptions, incompletions, hits taken... far too often DeMarcus will get there and the QB will just simply step up into a squeaky clean pocket and kill us.

 

[JoeyBoy718]

I think a DE with pass rushing potential a) exists in 3-4 schemes, and b) is necessary to boost this rush.

Justin Smith- 7.5 sacks
Calais Campbell- 8 sacks

It can be done. 3-4 DE's can be difference makers. Look at what Seymour meant to that early 2000's Pats defense. Look how the Packers took a big step back defensively when Cullen Jenkins left. And how impactful are those 2 guys listed above, along with Ngata... Watt... it can be done. It's not just the sacks either. We have to remember that the collapse of the pocket can represent a fatal disruption to the play for our opponent. What happens when the QB is forced off his spot? Interceptions, incompletions, hits taken... far too often DeMarcus will get there and the QB will just simply step up into a squeaky clean pocket and kill us.

I was saying that Hatcher had 4.5 sacks from the DE position in 13 games, with many of those games as the backup. If he started a full 16 games he could have put up sack numbers like that. Also, Ratliff had 8 sacks from the NT position a few years ago. He can very well attain that number again if moved to the DE position. I think we already have those DEs on the roster. We just need a monster NT and need to move Rat out to end to maximize his skills.

 

[JoeyBoy718]

We also got 0 sacks from the ILB position last season. The elite 3-4 defenses got a few sacks from their ILBs. This probably has a lot to do with a small NT.

 

[CowboysLaw87]

I was saying that Hatcher had 4.5 sacks from the DE position in 13 games, with many of those games as the backup. If he started a full 16 games he could have put up sack numbers like that. Also, Ratliff had 8 sacks from the NT position a few years ago. He can very well attain that number again if moved to the DE position. I think we already have those DEs on the roster. We just need a monster NT and need to move Rat out to end to maximize his skills.

Hey, if we moved Rat to DE and got a combined 12.5 sacks out of our DE's and sandwiched them with a monster NT you wouldn't hear a complaint out of me! However, regardless of the numbers, do you really think Hatcher belongs in the same comparison with Campbell and Smith? Come on man...

I do think a DL of Rat-Stud NT-Hatcher would be good though. Still leaves much to be desired from a depth standpoint.

 

[CowboysLaw87]

We also got 0 sacks from the ILB position last season. The elite 3-4 defenses got a few sacks from their ILBs. This probably has a lot to do with a small NT.

Now there's a great point. A lot of it also had to do with us playing a lot of James and Brooking, who aren't effective blitzers.

This is why I think a guy like Hightower would be tremendous, although I can't see it happening.

 

[TheSport78]

I was saying that Hatcher had 4.5 sacks from the DE position in 13 games, with many of those games as the backup. If he started a full 16 games he could have put up sack numbers like that. Also, Ratliff had 8 sacks from the NT position a few years ago. He can very well attain that number again if moved to the DE position. I think we already have those DEs on the roster. We just need a monster NT and need to move Rat out to end to maximize his skills.

Or Hatcher could get worse because I don't believe he's a three down player. He isn't stout against the run and he can't stay healthy.

Ratliff had a career high 7.5 sacks in 2008, and that's when he had Chris Canty playing next to him, who was the prototypical 5-technique. He did his job well and offered some pass rush as well. The Cowboys thought they could get by with Igor Olshansky and we all know how that turned out. We need to quit being cheap at the DE position and invest an early draft pick at DE.

Ratliff has never shown the ability to play the 5 technique. I think his best position would be the 3 technique in a 4-3. Drafting a big nose tackle like Dontari Poe (who has never played nose tackle by the way), and moving Ratliff to DE, would be switching two players to two positions that they've NEVER played before. Not gonna happen.

 

[JoeyBoy718]

Hey, if we moved Rat to DE and got a combined 12.5 sacks out of our DE's and sandwiched them with a monster NT you wouldn't hear a complaint out of me! However, regardless of the numbers, do you really think Hatcher belongs in the same comparison with Campbell and Smith? Come on man...

I do think a DL of Rat-Stud NT-Hatcher would be good though. Still leaves much to be desired from a depth standpoint.

Well, of course Hatcher is no Campbell or Smith. Ratliff would be our Campbell/Smith if moved to DE. But Hatcher was no bum from the DE position either. If you could get 5-6 sacks from him and 7-8 from Ratliff that would be amazing pass-rush from the starting DE positions.

 

[JoeyBoy718]

Or Hatcher could get worse because I don't believe he's a three down player. He isn't stout against the run and he can't stay healthy.

Ratliff had a career high 7.5 sacks in 2008, and that's when he had Chris Canty playing next to him, who was the prototypical 5-technique. He did his job well and offered some pass rush as well. The Cowboys thought they could get by with Igor Olshansky and we all know how that turned out. We need to quit being cheap at the DE position and invest an early draft pick at DE.

Ratliff has never shown the ability to play the 5 technique. I think his best position would be the 3 technique in a 4-3. Drafting a big nose tackle like Dontari Poe (who has never played nose tackle by the way), and moving Ratliff to DE, would be switching two players to two positions that they've NEVER played before. Not gonna happen.

So essentially you're saying that Ratliff is best at NT, although it would leave us as the only 3-4 team with a small NT, and the best thing for us to do is to get a prototypical 5-technique DE to play alongside Ratliff? So do you think we would be best served sticking with our unconventional 3-4 line (with a 285 lb NT)? Or would we be better off moving to a big NT like the other 3-4 teams, which would leave us basically with no place for Ratliff?

 

[TheSport78]

So essentially you're saying that Ratliff is best at NT, although it would leave us as the only 3-4 team with a small NT, and the best thing for us to do is to get a prototypical 5-technique DE to play alongside Ratliff? So do you think we would be best served sticking with our unconventional 3-4 line (with a 285 lb NT)? Or would we be better off moving to a big NT like the other 3-4 teams, which would leave us basically with no place for Ratliff?

Considering we signed Ratliff to an extension very recently, he isn't going anywhere, so Ratliff needs to have a place right now. Ratliff is the least of our worries. The guy needs help. He needs better players around him. He basically plays with a bunch of scrubs at DE.

When Ratliff was producing, did it matter that we were the only 34 team in the NFL with a small NT? It wasn't unconventional when Ratliff actually had some decent players like Canty around him. Canty demanded double teams. He was massive. Hatcher, Spears, Coleman, Geathers? They don't scare anybody and don't require double teams. You know what that means? More double teams for Ratliff. I feel bad for the guy.

 

[RSM94]

I think that the Boys need a DE and a NT. Tim McMahon does a good job of summarizing the state of the boys DL here:



Ratliff is wearing down at NT and should either be rotated in on passing downs or moved to DE. If the success of the Giants taught us anything, its that you can never have enough good D-linemen. Good D-line play makes the entire defense better.

 

[RSM94]

Sorry guys....I could not post the link....the article is Feb 13th ESPN Dallas, entitled "Cowboys position series: Defensive line"

 

[TheDallasDon]

I would like some fresh faces at both DE and NT.......build the trenches, then get a guy like Bruce Irvin and watch how good the pass rush can be

 

[TheDallasDon]

Fletcher Cox DE 6-4 296lbs
Jared Crick DE 6-4 280lbs
Kendall Reyes DE 6-4 299lbs
Billy Winn DE 6-4 295lbs
Derek Wolfe DE 6-5 296lbs
Josh Chapman NT 6-1 316lbs
Kheeston Randall DE 6-5 293lbs
Hebron Fangupo NT 6-1 323lbs
Nicklas Jean-Baptiste NT 330lbs
Aikem Hicks DE/NT 6-5 318lbs

Give me 2 if not 3 and this team gets better instantly and theres still Poe and Brockers

 

[Ren]

I was just looking at the players and the stats of other teams that run 3-4 defenses. Obviously, the Cowboys are the only team without a starting NT between 325-350 lbs. Also, even in the most elite defenses, you don't see more than 1 or 2 sacks from the NT position. However, our DEs (if I can include Ratliff as DE for the sake of this post) put up numbers up there with the best of the 3-4 defenses. Elite pass-rush from the DE positions are about 5-7 sacks per DE. Some of the most elite 3-4 pass-rushing defenses are the 49ers, Cardinals and Ravens. With how great Jason Hatcher did at the position (4.5 sacks in 13 games, many as the backup) and with how good Ratliff can be, I think drafting a DE would be pointless. I think people are underestimating how good Hatcher was last season. We have a surplus of 3-4 DEs who can generate a pass-rush already on our roster. I think it would be a waste of a pick to spend the #14 on a 300 lb DE. That's just my opinion. What do you think?

He's not a DE you might as well include Ware then and say we have an elite DEs, it doesn't make it any more true

 

[Manwiththeplan]

However, our DEs (if I can include Ratliff as DE for the sake of this post) put up numbers up there with the best of the 3-4 defenses. Elite pass-rush from the DE positions are about 5-7 sacks per DE. Some of the most elite 3-4 pass-rushing defenses are the 49ers, Cardinals and Ravens.

And who the last 2 years has put up atleast 5 sacks? No one, not Ratlif, not Hatcher and certainly not Kenyon Coleman.

With how great Jason Hatcher did at the position (4.5 sacks in 13 games, many as the backup) and with how good Ratliff can be, I think drafting a DE would be pointless. I think people are underestimating how good Hatcher was last season. We have a surplus of 3-4 DEs who can generate a pass-rush already on our roster. I think it would be a waste of a pick to spend the #14 on a 300 lb DE. That's just my opinion. What do you think?

Hatcher is a good roleplayer, but he started 10 games. He ideally should be used as a back-up because when given starter minutes, he just can't stay healthy. He goes down, like has been the case every time he sees significant time and we have no inside push.