FS and Roy Williams Question - Secondary flexibility

[LarryCanadian]

Who on the boards thinks Roy Williams has played up to his potential over the last 2 years in particular?

I for one think he can play with far more impact still.

I ask this question because it brings back the issue of FS. By itself, I think the Cowboys are right in not overpaying some vet $5 Million to come in with the hope they still have it. In addition, FS isn't usually one of those position considered critical to spending a very early draft pick on. It's not a position felt to be key to the nucleus of a Super Bowl team.

Back to the original question though. From my perspective, FS is not just about FS, but it's about making Roy Williams almost twice as good as he has been over last 2 years by allowing him to focus almost exclusively on hammering RB's, rushing the QB's, and punishing the short the mid range routes. I'd much rather take my chances with Roy as extra pass rusher on opponents 3rd and long plays than having him help Newman or Glenn 30-40 yards down the field. It has proven to not be something Williams is naturally good at.

So, despite Jones letting the cat out of bag and thereby making me think it's a smokescreen. I wouldn't mind in the least if we picked a value CB early and moved Henry (I'd think that would be the guy with his size, speed, instincts, and tackling ability) to FS. That would not only upgrade FS, but make Roy's playmaking ability potentially happen more often and with greater impact.

If Davis is let go to NO then you can draft a true FS a bit later. The whole secondary would then be more flexible, similar to what they are trying to do to Oline as well. If a top corner goes down, well then Henry can always go back there right.

I think this also has to do with how well Glenn still played last year, showing he can still play top 2 corner if needed. Plus Reeves and Jones are developing a bit.

This position is a double edged sword for the team though. I don't want Pile manning that spot or Lynn Scott if it means Roy isn't what Roy should be. Detracts from 2 of 11 defensive positions.

I still say it cost us 2 close games last year.

Larry

 

[Eddie]

Larry, this is a good post. But the fact still remains, Roy is a Safety ... and regardless of the words Strong or Free, BOTH need to be able to cover at times.

Granted, a better FS would allow Roy to move up the LoS on running plays, but in obvious passing downs ... Roy still needs to cover. That's his weakness.

Regardless, upgrading the talent around Roy will make him a better player ... but to simply say get a better FS would "unleash" Roy is abit too simplistic.

 

[Paniolo22]

If you really think Roy can't cover then you have been buying too much media kool aid. He really hasn't been burnt much, and has come up with some pretty nice INTs. Not to mention the fear he puts in opposing recievers, and the forced fumbles. The guy makes plays. Period. Is he the BEST all around safety, probably not, but his positives FAR outweigh the negatives he has.

 

[Eddie]

If you really think Roy can't cover then you have been buying too much media kool aid. He really hasn't been burnt much, and has come up with some pretty nice INTs. Not to mention the fear he puts in opposing recievers, and the forced fumbles. The guy makes plays. Period. Is he the BEST all around safety, probably not, but his positives FAR outweigh the negatives he has.

Take off your Cowboy glasses ... no fan of any other team would consider Roy a good coverage guy. Only a Cowboy fan would defend him like that.

 

[Paniolo22]

Take off your Cowboy glasses ... no fan of any other team would consider Roy a good coverage guy. Only a Cowboy fan would defend him like that.

Only a cowboy fan watches every game and sees him make WAY more plays than he gives up. The other teams only see the sportscenter highlights and the inappropriate blame that Roy gets for blown coverages. The two main scenes that get played over and over, Santana Moss- (Glenns man), and Jeremy Shockey (Miscommunication on the play) before that catch, 1 catch the whole game. I really could give a crap what other teams think, and I guarantee that they think differently after playing him.

 

[sacase]

Only a cowboy fan watches every game and sees him make WAY more plays than he gives up. The other teams only see the sportscenter highlights and the inappropriate blame that Roy gets for blown coverages. The two main scenes that get played over and over, Santana Moss- (Glenns man), and Jeremy Shockey (Miscommunication on the play) before that catch, 1 catch the whole game. I really could give a crap what other teams think, and I guarantee that they think differently after playing him.

I have to agree with you. Its easy to blame when we don't know what coverage it was and whose responsibility it was. RW makes far more plays than he gives up. Kinda of funny that when woody was playing he was doing an awsome job of coverage then when woddy retires he sucks. I think that shows that he can cover but other duties are keepin him from doing it like he can. When woody was back there all RW had to worry about was his side of the field.

 

[neosapien23]

Only a cowboy fan watches every game and sees him make WAY more plays than he gives up. The other teams only see the sportscenter highlights and the inappropriate blame that Roy gets for blown coverages. The two main scenes that get played over and over, Santana Moss- (Glenns man), and Jeremy Shockey (Miscommunication on the play) before that catch, 1 catch the whole game. I really could give a crap what other teams think, and I guarantee that they think differently after playing him.

Miscommunication, Shockey was still Roy's man period. As for Moss, I wouldn't expect any safety to be able to cover him. Newman should have been on Moss after he burned the secondary for his first touchdown. Roy Willams in one of the NFLs best safeties, but I don't know if he is the best. Adrain Wilson has way better cover skills, but his team sucks.

 

[Chief]

Who on the boards thinks Roy Williams has played up to his potential over the last 2 years in particular?

I for one think he can play with far more impact still.

I ask this question because it brings back the issue of FS. By itself, I think the Cowboys are right in not overpaying some vet $5 Million to come in with the hope they still have it. In addition, FS isn't usually one of those position considered critical to spending a very early draft pick on. It's not a position felt to be key to the nucleus of a Super Bowl team.

Back to the original question though. From my perspective, FS is not just about FS, but it's about making Roy Williams almost twice as good as he has been over last 2 years by allowing him to focus almost exclusively on hammering RB's, rushing the QB's, and punishing the short the mid range routes. I'd much rather take my chances with Roy as extra pass rusher on opponents 3rd and long plays than having him help Newman or Glenn 30-40 yards down the field. It has proven to not be something Williams is naturally good at.

So, despite Jones letting the cat out of bag and thereby making me think it's a smokescreen. I wouldn't mind in the least if we picked a value CB early and moved Henry (I'd think that would be the guy with his size, speed, instincts, and tackling ability) to FS. That would not only upgrade FS, but make Roy's playmaking ability potentially happen more often and with greater impact.

If Davis is let go to NO then you can draft a true FS a bit later. The whole secondary would then be more flexible, similar to what they are trying to do to Oline as well. If a top corner goes down, well then Henry can always go back there right.

I think this also has to do with how well Glenn still played last year, showing he can still play top 2 corner if needed. Plus Reeves and Jones are developing a bit.

This position is a double edged sword for the team though. I don't want Pile manning that spot or Lynn Scott if it means Roy isn't what Roy should be. Detracts from 2 of 11 defensive positions.

I still say it cost us 2 close games last year.

Larry

Good post.

By improving FS, it'll set loose Dallas' best player to do what he does best.

 

[DragonCowboy]

I have to agree with you. Its easy to blame when we don't know what coverage it was and whose responsibility it was. RW makes far more plays than he gives up. Kinda of funny that when woody was playing he was doing an awsome job of coverage then when woddy retires he sucks. I think that shows that he can cover but other duties are keepin him from doing it like he can. When woody was back there all RW had to worry about was his side of the field.

you and paniolo have been spot on with your posts. A good FS would just allow Roy to worry about his own man. With Keith Davis in the secondary, it might have just seemed that Roy was the man getting burned because Davis totally messed up, and Roy attempted to bail him out. Did you see AdamJT's(i think) showing of that play against the Chiefs when RW was blamed for that open TD catch, when it was actually Keith's fault.

It's simple. Good FS = Good Roy Williams. They complement each other. IMO, a good FS and a good OLB will do wonders for this defense. Top 3 Material...

 

[Paniolo22]

Miscommunication, Shockey was still Roy's man period. As for Moss, I wouldn't expect any safety to be able to cover him. Newman should have been on Moss after he burned the secondary for his first touchdown. Roy Willams in one of the NFLs best safeties, but I don't know if he is the best. Adrain Wilson has way better cover skills, but his team sucks.

Agreed. But should those 2 plays be the examples of what kind of safety he is? Or show how BAD he is in coverage? I like Wilsons coverage skills too, but he is not the complete safety Williams is. I'm just saying that his coverage problems are not as big as everyone makes it out to be.

 

[AdamJT13]

Take off your Cowboy glasses ... no fan of any other team would consider Roy a good coverage guy.

Fans of other teams are biased. NFL scouts are not, and they consider him at least "good" in coverage.

As stated by Scouts, Inc. -- "Possesses good athletic ability, has adequate top-end speed and is capable of matching up with most tight ends. Is instinctive and shows good range in zone coverage. Times hits well, is physical and looks to punish receivers coming over the middle. Reads opposing quarterbacks' eyes, has good ball skills and is a playmaker. Is tall, fights for the ball while it's in the air and can compete for jump balls in the red zone as well as downfield. ... However, Williams doesn't have elite speed. Takes too long to open hips when forced to turn and run downfield and while rarely gets caught out of position lacks the second gear to recover once the receiver gets past him."

As stated by The War Room's scouts -- "Can match up with most tight ends and has solid range in zone coverage. Has sound ball skills and can compete for jump balls. Is a playmaker. Lacks elite speed (and) recovery speed. ... Williams doesn't have elite cover skills, but there are few weaknesses in his game. He makes up for his lack of ideal top-end speed by rarely making mistakes."

Adrain Wilson has way better cover skills

Compare those analyses for Roy to these for Adrian Wilson -- "While he has the speed to turn and run with most TEs in the league, he is not natural as a pass defender, and he is probably more effective in a cover two zone than he is playing man to man. He will continue to be effective as a run defender, even with his faults, but he may never be a natural space player." And, "Lacks range and doesn't make plays. ... Has below-average change-of-direction skills. Wilson is effective against the run but needs to be protected in coverage."

Both of those sets of scouts, as well as the NFL scouts, personnel directors and GMs consulted by Pro Football Weekly, rated Williams WAY ahead of Adrian Wilson. Roy was first, second and fourth in their rankings, while Wilson was ranked 15th, 27th and 30th.

 

[DragonCowboy]

Fans of other teams are biased. NFL scouts are not, and they consider him at least "good" in coverage.

As stated by Scouts, Inc. -- "Possesses good athletic ability, has adequate top-end speed and is capable of matching up with most tight ends. Is instinctive and shows good range in zone coverage. Times hits well, is physical and looks to punish receivers coming over the middle. Reads opposing quarterbacks' eyes, has good ball skills and is a playmaker. Is tall, fights for the ball while it's in the air and can compete for jump balls in the red zone as well as downfield. ... However, Williams doesn't have elite speed. Takes too long to open hips when forced to turn and run downfield and while rarely gets caught out of position lacks the second gear to recover once the receiver gets past him."

As stated by The War Room's scouts -- "Can match up with most tight ends and has solid range in zone coverage. Has sound ball skills and can compete for jump balls. Is a playmaker. Lacks elite speed (and) recovery speed. ... Williams doesn't have elite cover skills, but there are few weaknesses in his game. He makes up for his lack of ideal top-end speed by rarely making mistakes."



Compare those analyses for Roy to these for Adrian Wilson -- "While he has the speed to turn and run with most TEs in the league, he is not natural as a pass defender, and he is probably more effective in a cover two zone than he is playing man to man. He will continue to be effective as a run defender, even with his faults, but he may never be a natural space player." And, "Lacks range and doesn't make plays. ... Has below-average change-of-direction skills. Wilson is effective against the run but needs to be protected in coverage."

Both of those sets of scouts, as well as the NFL scouts, personnel directors and GMs consulted by Pro Football Weekly, rated Williams WAY ahead of Adrian Wilson. Roy was first, second and fourth in their rankings, while Wilson was ranked 15th, 27th and 30th.

You're my hero!

 

[junk]

I don't know. The team doesn't seem to value the position and I can't blame them. Its the least important position on the defense.

If Roy is really all that, he doesn't need a FS to make him good. Should be good already.

 

[THUMPER]

I agree that a TRUE FS would help allow Roy to play to his strengths but my biggest gripe about Roys is that he misses a lot of tackles because he is looking for the big hit too often.

I think if he would look to make sure of the tackle first and let the big hits happen when they come then he would be a much more effective player. Steve Atwater fell into the same trap and became an afterthought.

As for FS we need to stop looking at converted SS and find a real FS for a change.

 

[Paniolo22]

Fans of other teams are biased. NFL scouts are not, and they consider him at least "good" in coverage.

As stated by Scouts, Inc. -- "Possesses good athletic ability, has adequate top-end speed and is capable of matching up with most tight ends. Is instinctive and shows good range in zone coverage. Times hits well, is physical and looks to punish receivers coming over the middle. Reads opposing quarterbacks' eyes, has good ball skills and is a playmaker. Is tall, fights for the ball while it's in the air and can compete for jump balls in the red zone as well as downfield. ... However, Williams doesn't have elite speed. Takes too long to open hips when forced to turn and run downfield and while rarely gets caught out of position lacks the second gear to recover once the receiver gets past him."

As stated by The War Room's scouts -- "Can match up with most tight ends and has solid range in zone coverage. Has sound ball skills and can compete for jump balls. Is a playmaker. Lacks elite speed (and) recovery speed. ... Williams doesn't have elite cover skills, but there are few weaknesses in his game. He makes up for his lack of ideal top-end speed by rarely making mistakes."



Compare those analyses for Roy to these for Adrian Wilson -- "While he has the speed to turn and run with most TEs in the league, he is not natural as a pass defender, and he is probably more effective in a cover two zone than he is playing man to man. He will continue to be effective as a run defender, even with his faults, but he may never be a natural space player." And, "Lacks range and doesn't make plays. ... Has below-average change-of-direction skills. Wilson is effective against the run but needs to be protected in coverage."

Both of those sets of scouts, as well as the NFL scouts, personnel directors and GMs consulted by Pro Football Weekly, rated Williams WAY ahead of Adrian Wilson. Roy was first, second and fourth in their rankings, while Wilson was ranked 15th, 27th and 30th.

I've been looking for you Adam.

 

[littlewebs]

I agree that a TRUE FS would help allow Roy to play to his strengths but my biggest gripe about Roys is that he misses a lot of tackles because he is looking for the big hit too often.

I think if he would look to make sure of the tackle first and let the big hits happen when they come then he would be a much more effective player. Steve Atwater fell into the same trap and became an afterthought.

As for FS we need to stop looking at converted SS and find a real FS for a change.

Roy DOES NOT miss a lot of tackles. Tony Gonzalez is the only guy who broke a Roy Williams tackle in the open field last year. Try to come up with an example. If he misses lots of them there should be no problem.

 

[koolaid]

ah this old argument again
IMO roy covers better than 80% of safeties in the NFL, he gets way to much blame for one of the fastest men in the nfl breaking loose on one play

 

[bobbie brewskie]

ah this old argument again
IMO roy covers better than 80% of safeties in the NFL, he gets way to much blame for one of the fastest men in the nfl breaking loose on one play

THANK YOU, can anybody name 5 STRONG SAFETIES that are better in coverage that Roy Williams?

 

[ddh33]

I agree with the original premise of this thread.

I think Roy Williams is very solid in coverage. For some weird reason people have gotten this idea that Roy isn't a good coverage player, and now he's being underrated because of it. It's ridiculous.

Regardless, I feel like Roy has to spend a little too much time in coverage. I say knowing good and well that a safety's primary responsibility is coverage. But I would love to see more of Roy being able to roam, blitz, and be a force closer to the line.

With that in mind, I think the FS position is key. Getting a good FS could likely free up Roy to do more of those type things. It's part of the reason why I don't automatically discount the idea of moving Henry to FS. I don't really think it will happen, but I could envision a scenario where it did.

Let Roy do more things on the field, with less coverage responsibility, and this defense would be even better.

 

[Clove]

Take off your Cowboy glasses ... no fan of any other team would consider Roy a good coverage guy. Only a Cowboy fan would defend him like that.

Without being mean, I think Roy is pretty good in coverage.
I think that the media has taken something, and convinced the world of it. If you want to bash him, then I will say he lundges at the player to tackle last year, but normally, he goes for the kill shot. I didn't see Roy in Man on Man getting burned much last year and I recorded every game, and watched every position closely. But I don't believe everything I hear in the media.