FWST LBOH: Media gives cheating Patriots a break

[cajuncocoa]

http://i162.***BLOCKED***/albums/t270/cajuncocoa/Patriotsnewlogo.jpg

Patriots* new logo

 

[tyke1doe]

Are you really asking this question?

It shows guilt, innocence, or inconclusiveness. If it shows guilt, it also shows the extent of the wrongdoing.

We already know that they did wrong. That's why they were penalized. The point is whether you can prove that they won because they cheated.

Sorry, you can't.

You seriously think this is relevant to destroying evidence? Unless those documents are part of a court case, they're not even remotely comparable. But, then that would be contrary to your point, if you even had one for mentioning such a vacuous analogy.

I guess the smilie is used to support arguments around here. Fair enough. Two can play that game.

You can't even follow your own argument, SoS.

This isn't a court case, yet the tapes were destroyed. So there was no need for such evidence. This wasn't a court case. It was an issue where the Pats violated the policy. The NFL told the Pats to stop, ordered the tapes destroyed, issued a penalty. And that was that.

Again, you simply can't answer the question as to what good perserving the tapes would do.

What makes you think there aren't any copies?

Maybe there are. But if you don't order the tapes destroyed, they can be reused. The mandate was against filming other team's in-game signals - not that a team couldn't use what it has already in library.

By ordering the tapes destroyed, you send the message that the tapes you have aren't to be used AT ALL.

Therefore, if the tapes appear somewhere else, there's ground for the NFL to take further action.

He was filming to gain an "unfair" advantage. Otherwise, it wouldn't be considered "cheating".

Uh, is there an echo in here?

Even if he did have an "unfair" advantage, how do you PROVE that the Patriots won because of that advantage? You can't.

Hence all this whining about the asterisks as if the Patriots' season is tainted.

It's not incumbent on me to prove anything. Because that's an argument you invented, and I never agreed to participate in. That's why it was deemed irrelevant.

But you referred to my initial post.

Your argument is nonsensical anyways. How do you prove someone won games because of something except if that something led them to scoring more points than the other team?

Oh the irony. So you criticize my "nonsensical" argument and then subsequently post a convulted question.

I guess this is where I insert the ubiquitious smilie.

It's not an argument. It's evidence for the notion that they did.

We already know they did.

Next argument.

And it's strong evidence, because you don't destroy evidence otherwise.

We already know they cheated. Evidence is kept when you're trying to prove something - you know like you keep your tax information in case the IRS audits you, you keep receipts to prove you paid for something.

If those transactions are not in dispute, you don't need to keep the evidence.

There is no need to keep the tapes because it had already been determined that the Pats violated league policy with regards to videotaping signals during games.

You keep arguing something that is already established as if there was any doubt.

If it shows innocence, then what's the point of destroying it because it vindicates you. If it shows inconclusiveness, then it's irrelevant. However, if it shows guilt, and more importantly, the extent of that guilt, and you don't want others to know it, you destroy it.

Wow. Are you on the same planet as this argument?

What innocence?

The Pats already acknowledged that they violated league policy.
They were punished.

There is no need for this issue to go anywhere anymore.

You just argued against your point.

I don't have to buy anything, because those two arguments aren't even related.

Of course, you wouldn't think so but your logic is askewed so I can understand if you don't grasp the connection.

How convenient. I guess we'll never know.

We wouldn't have known one way or the other. So why keep dragging it up like you do?

That's exactly the point.

Because if the Pats went on to lose the rest of their games, then it would be evidence that their cheating helped them win, and it would prove the point!

How silly.

But it didn't. So that must mean that they won outright and there should be no question about the validity of their wins.

That means all this whining about their record is irrelevant.

Yes, how silly indeed.

I didn't use third party arbitration in the legal sense. I used it in the sense that destroying the evidence won't allow anyone outside of the NFL and the Pats, i.e. a third party to see the evidence so that they can make their own determination on whether the tapes made it easier for them to win games, if someone wanted to pursue that issue down the road in the future for whatever reason.

What?

No one would have access to those tapes without the NFL's permission anyway.

It was the property of the NFL/Pats, it violated an NFL policy. The NFL ordered them destroyed.

So what if someone else wanted to examine them? They wouldn't have had access to them anyway - nor should they have.

Unless you want people to have access to your individual records to prove later that you might have cheated on your taxes.

You must make these arguments up as you go.

 

[cajuncocoa]

http://i162.***BLOCKED***/albums/t270/cajuncocoa/cheaties3zi8.jpg

 

[LittleBoyBlue]

http://i162.***BLOCKED***/albums/t270/cajuncocoa/Patriotsnewlogo.jpg

Patriots* new logo

Here is another for your collection

 

[Doomsday101]

It would be, except the fact that they got caught cheating and are helped with ridiculous calls in crucial situations in each and every damn game makes it hard for me to chalk this up to "greatness".

To those who wish to overlook this, I wonder if you have children, and what values are you teaching them?????

Week 1 vs the Jets, do you really think that played a role in winning the other 15 games? I think the punishment should have been more and have stated that but what the Pats did in week 1 of the season had no bearing on what took place for the remainder of the season. If someone want to say the other 3 SB are tainted I could understand that reasoning.

 

[khiladi]

We already know that they did wrong. That's why they were penalized. The point is whether you can prove that they won because they cheated.

Sorry, you can't.

You can't, because they destroyed the 'evidence'. How is that so hard to comprehend?

Your whole argument is predicated on a fundamental logical flaw, and that is:

The NFL punished the Patriots fairly.

Isn't that what the article is questioning?

How can you prove the NFL punished the Patriots fairly? You can't.... Because the tapes are burned. So when you say:

Again, you simply can't answer the question as to what good perserving the tapes would do.

Your just being incredibly foolish.

 

[LittleBoyBlue]

Your just being incredibly foolish.

An NFL apologist? :shush:

 

[Vintage]

It would be, except the fact that they got caught cheating and are helped with ridiculous calls in crucial situations in each and every damn game makes it hard for me to chalk this up to "greatness".

To those who wish to overlook this, I wonder if you have children, and what values are you teaching them?????

Well, when I become a parent...I won't rely on TV to teach my children values....

The Patriots got caught cheating. They were punished. And the reality of it is, 10 years from now, the Patriots will be considered one of the greatest teams of all time....and for good reason.

And if I have a child someday and he/she asks me about it....I am not going to sit there and lie and say that the Patriots are cheaters and all of their awards have an * placed next to them. Because they don't. History will not reflect that. I will simply tell them the facts and let he/she make their own decision. And hopefully the morals/values that they have been taught up until that point will allow them to make a good moral judgment.

 

[cajuncocoa]

Week 1 vs the Jets, do you really think that played a role in winning the other 15 games? I think the punishment should have been more and have stated that but what the Pats did in week 1 of the season had no bearing on what took place for the remainder of the season. If someone want to say the other 3 SB are tainted I could understand that reasoning.

I have no idea if it played a role in what came after. I also don't know if it played a role in what came before.

How long have they been doing this? Did they keep copies that were NOT destroyed? Who can say with certainty that they are now squeaky clean?

Since I don't know (and I doubt anyone does) it raises suspicions that may never exonerate the Pats* completely in the court of public opinion. They brought it on themselves, so they have to deal with it.

 

[LittleBoyBlue]

The Patriots got caught cheating. They were punished. And the reality of it is, 10 years from now, the Patriots will be considered one of the greatest teams of all time....and for good reason.

And if I have a child someday and he/she asks me about it....I am not going to sit there and lie and say that the Patriots are cheaters and all of their awards have an * placed next to them. Because they don't. History will not reflect that. I will simply tell them the facts and let he/she make their own decision. And hopefully the morals/values that they have been taught up until that point will allow them to make a good moral judgment.

Its a shame really.... we dont know the full extent of the cheating... how much of a competitive advantage they gained?

What we do know is.... when it came down to it... in the SB.... when the result of the game was in the balance they won by THREE points in each SB.

Would you say the slightest competitive advantage gained by cheating could have been the difference in winning or losing in SB?

I would say there is a real good argument for it. There is no denying that it is at least arguable.

 

[cajuncocoa]

Well, when I become a parent...I won't rely on TV to teach my children values....

The Patriots got caught cheating. They were punished. And the reality of it is, 10 years from now, the Patriots will be considered one of the greatest teams of all time....and for good reason.

And if I have a child someday and he/she asks me about it....I am not going to sit there and lie and say that the Patriots are cheaters and all of their awards have an * placed next to them. Because they don't. History will not reflect that. I will simply tell them the facts and let he/she make their own decision. And hopefully the morals/values that they have been taught up until that point will allow them to make a good moral judgment.

Of course you don't rely on TV to teach your children values. But what's on TV and on the news becomes part of our culture that we must address with our children.

My children are grown now, but when my grandchildren come along, I certainly won't be telling them that I saw the greatest team of all time in the year 2007.

 

[cajuncocoa]

Here is another for your collection

Oooh, thanks!!! I like it!!

 

[Vintage]

Of course you don't rely on TV to teach your children values. But what's on TV and on the news becomes part of our culture that we must address with our children.

My children are grown now, but when my grandchildren come along, I certainly won't be telling them that I saw the greatest team of all time in the year 2007.

Well, if I was to not say that, I would by lying....

Because I haven't seen a team as good as the Patriots team I've seen this year.

 

[Doomsday101]

I have no idea if it played a role in what came after. I also don't know if it played a role in what came before.

How long have they been doing this? Did they keep copies that were NOT destroyed? Who can say with certainty that they are now squeaky clean?

Since I don't know (and I doubt anyone does) it raises suspicions that may never exonerate the Pats* completely in the court of public opinion. They brought it on themselves, so they have to deal with it.

Then these teams are stupid if they kept the same hand signals after it was reported that it was filmed. As for public opinion in some eyes the Pats will never be forgiven and in others it will. In the end to me what they did was not that big of a deal and have heard many coaches say the same but the fact they broke the rule I felt their punishment should have been greater including the forfeiting of the game vs. the Jets as well as the draft pick and fines. Other than that I don’t think what took place in week 1 had anything to do with the rest of their season.

 

[TheHerd]

And daddy will probably say, "Yes, but they were punished. And it's not like other teams don't cheat either

Yes dear, I cheated on you with my secretary. But everyone does that, so it's ok.

What a country!

 

[Doomsday101]

Yes dear, I cheated on you with my secretary. But everyone does that, so it's ok. What a country!

So what the Pats did compares to killing and now cheating on a wife? Do you people even know what the Pats were found guilty of? :laugh2:

 

[khiladi]

What we do know is.... when it came down to it... in the SB.... when the result of the game was in the balance they won by THREE points in each SB.

And that they couldn't really move the chains effectively until the final quarter, when they needed it most. All of the sudden, Tom Brady moves the ball with ease...

Don't forget that Tom Brady is un-defeated in over-time....

 

[khiladi]

So what the Pats did compares to killing and now cheating on a wife? Do you people even know what the Pats were found guilty of? :laugh2:

If we are going to go there...

Bill Bellichek cheated on his wife... which means that stealing signals to him must not be such a big deal....

 

[TheHerd]

So what the Pats did compares to killing and now cheating on a wife? Do you people even know what the Pats were found guilty of? :laugh2:

Not at all, I was just pointing how how ludicrous it is to claim that it's ok they cheated and got caught based on a claim that others are doing it. My 11 year old uses that all the time.

And worse, they are now mad at the people who claim they actually cheated and got caught. Uh, you cheated and got caught, remember?

 

[TheHerd]

So what the Pats did compares to killing and now cheating on a wife? Do you people even know what the Pats were found guilty of? :laugh2:

And let me ask a question, and I know we cannot really answer it, but give your honest opinion.

If the Cowboys had been caught cheating in the exact same way, do you think the penalty would have been the same, the league would have destroyed all the evidence and the media would have already forgotten it?