General Medical Info on Jaylon Smith Nerve Regeneration

waldoputty

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This is an article that answers some of our questions in reference to Jaylon's update. I will try to get more information from a couple researchers today or tomorrow.

This is original text from US NIH on nerve regeneration. This is general nerve regeneration, not just peroneal nerve injury for Jaylon's case. After the text, I will translate as well as I can for relevant facts:

"EMG testing can be used to demonstrate neurological recovery."
"True axonal regeneration occurs at the site where the nerve has been injured and where axonal degeneration begins [2]. For axonal regeneration to occur, there must be an intact anterior horn cell also known as the motor neuron cell body and an intact channel for regeneration, the endoneurial tube. When axonal injury occurs, the axon distal to the site of injury undergoes Wallerian degeneration, whereas the proximal axonal component usually remains intact. The proximal axon forms a bud that begins to regenerate distally through the endoneurial tube toward the denervated muscle. This process occurs at a rate of 3–4 mm/day so axonal regeneration is length-dependent [3, 4]. Neurological recovery is also dependent on healthy viable muscle tissue. This is necessary for the release of nerve growth factors from denervated muscle. These factors act as a catalyst to stimulate the axon to regenerate. If the denervated muscle becomes fibrotic, these factors may no longer be released. Muscle tissue must also remain viable and electrically active if a regenerating axon is going establish a connection with a functional neuromuscular junction. Chronically denervated muscle will eventually become fibrotic and electrically inactive. This usually happens somewhere between 18 and 24 months."


Take Away Facts:
1. EMG testing can be used for testing nerve regeneration. They are using this with Jaylon and the updates include EMG results are improving. That is a good thing.
2. From other info - there are 2 types of regeneration needed - (1) Regrowing the 6" of the nerve cell that died after the injury and reinnervation of the muscle. (2) Reinnervation of the muscle once the regrowth gets to the muscle.
3. The nerve cell nucleus itself (above the knee) is fine or there would be no regrowth and everyone would be crying already.
4. Regrowth of the nerve axon is 3-4 mm per day. If the growth is having problems, there are surgical options. Since there has been no additional surgery, the regrowth is/did not having major problems.
5. If the nerve takes more than 18-24 months to get to the muscle, we are in trouble because the muscle changes. We are at month 10.
 

BoysfanfromCanada

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This is an article that answers some of our questions in reference to Jaylon's update. I will try to get more information from a couple researchers today or tomorrow.

This is original text from US NIH on nerve regeneration. This is general nerve regeneration, not just peroneal nerve injury for Jaylon's case. After the text, I will translate as well as I can for relevant facts:

"EMG testing can be used to demonstrate neurological recovery."
"True axonal regeneration occurs at the site where the nerve has been injured and where axonal degeneration begins [2]. For axonal regeneration to occur, there must be an intact anterior horn cell also known as the motor neuron cell body and an intact channel for regeneration, the endoneurial tube. When axonal injury occurs, the axon distal to the site of injury undergoes Wallerian degeneration, whereas the proximal axonal component usually remains intact. The proximal axon forms a bud that begins to regenerate distally through the endoneurial tube toward the denervated muscle. This process occurs at a rate of 3–4 mm/day so axonal regeneration is length-dependent [3, 4]. Neurological recovery is also dependent on healthy viable muscle tissue. This is necessary for the release of nerve growth factors from denervated muscle. These factors act as a catalyst to stimulate the axon to regenerate. If the denervated muscle becomes fibrotic, these factors may no longer be released. Muscle tissue must also remain viable and electrically active if a regenerating axon is going establish a connection with a functional neuromuscular junction. Chronically denervated muscle will eventually become fibrotic and electrically inactive. This usually happens somewhere between 18 and 24 months."


Take Away Facts:
1. EMG testing can be used for testing nerve regeneration. They are using this with Jaylon and the updates include EMG results are improving. That is a good thing.
2. From other info - there are 2 types of regeneration needed - (1) Regrowing the 6" of the nerve cell that died after the injury and reinnervation of the muscle. (2) Reinnervation of the muscle once the regrowth gets to the muscle.
3. The nerve cell nucleus itself (above the knee) is fine or there would be no regrowth and everyone would be crying already.
4. Regrowth of the nerve axon is 3-4 mm per day. If the growth is having problems, there are surgical options. Since there has been no additional surgery, the regrowth is/did not having major problems.
5. If the nerve takes more than 18-24 months to get to the muscle, we are in trouble because the muscle changes. We are at month 10.

At this point, is number 5 the worst case scenario? So signs of improvement are there, just need the nerve to make its way to the muscle?

What are the options if it does approach 18 months without nerve firing?
 

jazzcat22

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I really wish the Jaylon Smith threads would stop. He's not playing this year, and all the other people who have had similar injuries have nothing to do with his rehab and how HE heals.

And as I have been saying...this all does not mean a dang thing...why hasn't a team official come out and tell us anything on his progress, if any progress at all.
If there was true Jrry would be on the top of the stadium yelling it to the fans....and yes, I know someone will say, open the roof and let him drop....lol....
Jason would say day to day though....

But until he is activated to the 53 and is on the field during a game, it all means squat.
I want to hear this from the team.
 

waldoputty

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At this point, is number 5 the worst case scenario? So signs of improvement are there, just need the nerve to make its way to the muscle?

What are the options if it does approach 18 months without nerve firing?

#5 seems like worst case scenario - as in bad recovery and we all cry.

Signs, as in EMG data, are improving, but we have no idea how much and compared to what baseline.
Not sure if the nerve has not got to the muscle or taking its sweet time innervating?
They have not given enough info to differentiate between the two.

It probably took wild rumors spreading after the activation from NFI to force the release of the EMG info as well as the footdrop info.
I think they are going to go silent until the 3 week deadline, in which case there may be more release of info.
When they said there is foot drop, we dont know if there was no improvement, or just not enough improvement to prevent foot drop.

As far as approach month 18, have not looked into that.
They said things like nerve growth factors and stuff, but this is getting more and more experimental, not ideal.

If I have to guess, we are innervating right now if he still has foot drop.
But it is simply a guess.
Though the reference said 3-4mm per day, which actually does not correspond to 1 inch/month - it is MUCH faster.
So this may be some type of general growth rate#.
But it does give an idea of a 33% range in growth rate, so 6 months could easily become 6-8 months, including 1 month delay gets us to 9 months.
 

waldoputty

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I really wish the Jaylon Smith threads would stop. He's not playing this year, and all the other people who have had similar injuries have nothing to do with his rehab and how HE heals.

Some of us want to share info on this.

Just dont click if you dont want to see it.

I have yet to see a response from the doc who posts here on the EMG update.
 

Doomsday101

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I really wish the Jaylon Smith threads would stop. He's not playing this year, and all the other people who have had similar injuries have nothing to do with his rehab and how HE heals.

I don't think anyone here is in any position to say if he will or won't play this year. Myself I have no idea where he is currently in this process all I do know is Cowboys choose to activated him instead of placing him on the season ending injury reserve. I don't think it is a ploy I think any move they make comes with some medical advice on the situation. I do think even if he can get back before the end of the year I would be skeptical of how much he could help this season given the length of time off. Simply said if he can play he will play and if he can't he won't outside of that people are guessing.
 

sideon

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Like i said before i expect him to be full participation at the 2017 training camp.
 

Awakened

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Take Away Facts:
1. EMG testing can be used for testing nerve regeneration. They are using this with Jaylon and the updates include EMG results are improving. That is a good thing.

Where has it been said definitively that EMG results are improving?
 

waldoputty

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Here is some more info:
1. Jaylon is being monitored with EMG - or that is what we are told.
2. There are more sensitive techniques such as MRI and MRN. There are no reports of more involved testing.
3. Use of EMG is consistent of someone who is more of a routine case than some super difficult case.

Take this for whatever it is worth.
@FuzzyLumpkins and @Doc50 - would appreciate your input
Thanks
 

waldoputty

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Where has it been said definitively that EMG results are improving?

That came in the same tweet as the foot drop is still there. It said EMG improving.

They are just not providing any detail beyond that so it is difficult to figure out where Jaylon is at.
 

Trouty

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I really wish the Jaylon Smith threads would stop. He's not playing this year, and all the other people who have had similar injuries have nothing to do with his rehab and how HE heals.

Why not just not click on the thread, Miley? Or is this like a 'moth to a flame' type thing? Same goes for those that "liked" your post. Masochists? Hate-threadin' it?

Waldo, thanks for keeping us updated, brother. Good bulletin board material for those of us that are interested,
 

waldoputty

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Why not just not click on the thread, Miley? Or is this like a 'moth to a flame' type thing? Same goes for those that "liked" your post. Masochists? Hate-threadin' it?

Waldo, thanks for keep us updated, brother. Good bulletin board material for those of us that are interested,

I am hoping doc comes in and gives us his input.
 

waldoputty

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What I have read indicates that MRN and MRI imaging may be better for diagnosing innervation problems.
Here is the link to the article: http://www.ajnr.org/content/24/7/1283.full
Fuzzy mentioned MRN before.
The experts I talked to also mentioned using MRI.
If there is a problem with innervation, I am sure they would be using the best tool available.
If this is correct, the nerve axon may not have regenerated/grown as fast as expected.

So long as the nerve axon is growing reasonably, it is not a disaster.
Among others, @Cowboys22 mentioned that the nerve regrowth may be happening slower than expected.
He may very well be correct.
 

BrassCowboy

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I really wish the Jaylon Smith threads would stop. He's not playing this year, and all the other people who have had similar injuries have nothing to do with his rehab and how HE heals.
not everyone who is interested in this nerve thing with Jaylon are thinking he is gonna play this year, but there are plenty of us who do wonder if he is gonna play at all for this team. meaning no disrespect, you can just ignore the posts I believe. o_O
 

waldoputty

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@FuzzyLumpkins has mentioned this many times - probably why he is sick of talking about it.

Based on what the doctors said, it is a 2nd degree injury for the stretched nerve.
It is a big deal whether it is a 2nd degree or a 3rd degree.
If it is a 2nd degree, the recovery is usually very complete.

But at this point, I am going to double check whether is a 2nd degree.
Or fuzzy can chime in more here.
  • A second-degree injury, or axonotmesis, also will recover completely; however, the recovery will take much longer than with a first-degree injury. (according to http://nerve.wustl.edu/nd_injury.php )
  • A third-degree injury also will recover slowly; in addition, only partial recovery will occur.

The doctors are following the recovery/regrowth process (EMG etc.) and can intervene if needed.
So far, there has been no intervention (surgery)


For those that are really curious:


When you see the peroneal nerve - there are actually multiple nerve axons inside the nerve. Think of it as a printer cable has multiple wires inside. If the wires get to the wrong connector pin, you got a problem.

Anatomically, each axon is wrapped in a protective sheath/wall called the endoneurim. If that sheath is undamaged, then you are a second degree injury. If that sheath is damaged, then you are at least a third degree injury.

Why the difference, being wrapped inside the tubes assure the axons go to the right place.
Otherwise, regenerating axons may not reinnervate their original motor and sensory targets.
For 3rd degree, the pattern of recovery is mixed and incomplete.
Reinnervation occurs only if sensory fibers reach their sensory end organs and motor fibers reach their muscle targets.
 
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