Golfers: Stack and Tilt?

[ethiostar]

Hi folks,

I finally started playing golf a little over 6 months ago. I've wanted to get started much earlier but it didn't happen for various reasons. Anyway, i got my first set of clubs from Walmart (Top Flite). Obviously not top of the line golf clubs but based on the reviews i have read they are pretty good for a beginner and the price range (I believe i paid around $180 for them). They came with a driver, a 3 wood, a 4th and 5th hybrid, 6I-PW and a putter. I have since bought a couple of clubs, a lob wedge and 3i, which i like a lot.

My question actually involves a book on the Stack and Tilt golf swing that came with the clubs. Since i haven't had any lessons or read any other instructional material, outside of a little bit i have read online, i have tried to learn this particular swing method. Using the instructions in this book, i have been able to hit the ball solidly and further more consistently and my aim has improved quite a bit (I don't slice nearly as much anymore). Mind you, i don't have anything else to compare it to since i haven't tried any other setup and swing method. But compared to what i was doing in the beginning, which was to just go out to the driving range and swing as hard as i can, i have seen a vast improvement.

For you golfers out there, my question to you is, have you tried this golf method? If so, what do you think about it? I have read a lot on it online so i have a fairly good idea what the critics and advocates say about it. I am more interested in what YOU have to say about it, that is if you or someone you know have tried it.

 

[tko112204]

When you get good SAT lets you hit your short clubs really well. When I was using it, from 8 down I flagged everything.

My problem was with longer clubs it was tough to release the clubhead in time, and I hit lazy cut fluffy things.

For a beginner I suppose it could work ok. At least until you learn more about your swing and what works for you. I would stick with it for now, just to get some consistency in your swing. Plus, it seems like its helping you hit it better right now, so that's good.

I will say this, if you stick with golf for a while and get better, I would bet you won't stick with SAT the whole time.

 

[Yeagermeister]

Grip it and rip it

 

[ethiostar]

When you get good SAT lets you hit your short clubs really well. When I was using it, from 8 down I flagged everything.

My problem was with longer clubs it was tough to release the clubhead in time, and I hit lazy cut fluffy things.

For a beginner I suppose it could work ok. At least until you learn more about your swing and what works for you. I would stick with it for now, just to get some consistency in your swing. Plus, it seems like its helping you hit it better right now, so that's good.

I will say this, if you stick with golf for a while and get better, I would bet you won't stick with SAT the whole time.

Thanks for your comments. As for your last comment, based on what you said earlier in your post, i assume you are talking about not using SAT for your mid and long clubs. If that is correct, what do you do differently?

Personally, it is with my driver, 3 wood and 3i that i have noticed the most positive impact.

 

[tko112204]

Thanks for your comments. As for your last comment, based on what you said earlier in your post, i assume you are talking about not using SAT for your mid and long clubs. If that is correct, what do you do differently?

Personally, it is with my driver, 3 wood and 3i that i have noticed the most positive impact.

It's really, really hard to have 2 golf swings, so doing something different with my long clubs than my short ones wasn't something I wanted to attempt, so I ditched the SAT for a more traditional weight transfer.

I'm not surprised you are seeing improvement from the "no theory" swing (so to speak, not trying to put you down at all) to the SAT swing. If only because it helps you to keep from swaying and losing your spine angle.

The limited weight transfer on SAT will always make it harder it to compress the ball to get maximum distance. On longer clubs I mean, because the arc of the swing is longer and needs maximum hip clearance to really work.

I do think you should stick with SAT, especially if it's working for you. I'm curious to see how it will work for someone without an ingrained swing.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

I've got quite a few friends that teach the S&T. The book is good if you are working on your swing with an S&T teacher. If you try to go by the book itself, you'll inevitably be doing large pieces of it wrong.

The main point of the S&T is to get your shoulders to turn at a 90* angle to the spine on the backswing and the downswing. Most golfers tend to turn the shoulders too flat on the backswing and then turn them too steep ont he downswing. Pretty much all of the pieces of the S&T swing are geared towards being able to do that (and it's easier said than done).

There are too things you should learn from the book if you're a beginner.

1) In order to compress a golf ball, you hit the ball *first*, then take a divot. Your divot should wind up being out in front of where the ball was at address.


2) The laws of ball flight. Very very important...mainly because most instructors teach the laws of ball flight incorrectly...even the great Butch Harmon.

There's some things about S&T I don't like, but overall it's actually a simple way to build and effective golf swing.





YR

 

[Yakuza Rich]

The limited weight transfer on SAT will always make it harder it to compress the ball to get maximum distance. On longer clubs I mean, because the arc of the swing is longer and needs maximum hip clearance to really work.

S&T swings typically have *more* hip rotation (or 'clearance') than most modern swings. Reason being is that it teaches the golfer to straighten the rear knee in the backswing. Popular golf instruction tells you to 'maintain' the rear knee flex throughout the backswing.

When the rear knee straightens, the hips rotate more (and more easily). When you keep the rear knee flexed, the hip rotation gets restricted.

It's important to note that the rear knee in the backswing should *straighten*. It should not become locked.





YR

 

[tko112204]

S&T swings typically have *more* hip rotation (or 'clearance') than most modern swings. Reason being is that it teaches the golfer to straighten the rear knee in the backswing. Popular golf instruction tells you to 'maintain' the rear knee flex throughout the backswing.

When the rear knee straightens, the hips rotate more (and more easily). When you keep the rear knee flexed, the hip rotation gets restricted.

It's important to note that the rear knee in the backswing should *straighten*. It should not become locked.





YR

It was hard for me to consistently keep from getting "stuck" with SAT and blocking everything with my long clubs.

You're talking rotation in the backswing, I'm talking rotation in the downswing. I think. Because with SAT I always felt like I was hitting everything with my chest and that I was turning around my legs, but not using them as much. If that makes sense.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

It was hard for me to consistently keep from getting "stuck" with SAT and blocking everything with my long clubs.

You're talking rotation in the backswing, I'm talking rotation in the downswing. I think. Because with SAT I always felt like I was hitting everything with my chest and that I was turning around my legs, but not using them as much. If that makes sense.

I sorta understand. The S&T wants the golfer to use their legs quite a bit in the downswing.

I really can't give away too much, but in the golf swing the knees influence what the hips do.

So...

Flexed knees = restricts hip turn

Straightened Knees = allows for more hip turn.

The feet also play a role. That's why the S&T people want the feet flared about 10* at address.

So...

Feet flared = allows for more hip turn

'Square' Feet = Less hip turn

Pigeon Toed feet = restricts hip turn.

It works the same way on the backswing and the downswing.

If you're blocking shots to the right, that means at impact your clubface is open. That's because the initial direction of the ball is 85% due to where the clubface is pointing at impact. So if a ball starts out left..the face was pointing out to the left. If it starts out to the right...the face was pointing over there.

Very important to understand that.

And like I said..the book is a good reference if you're working with a S&T instructor. If not, you'll inevitably do parts of it incorrectly and it will be difficult to work around them.








YR

 

[Doomsday101]

My advice, if this is a swing that you can repeat successfully time after time then do and stick with it. I have found over the years that if you can simplify your swing so that you can repeat it time after time you will bring the score down. Most of us amateur golfers do not spend enough time at the practice range so keep your swing as simple as possible.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

My advice is you kinda need to figure out what you want to do, first. If you want to spend time on the range, then find an instructor. If you don't, then don't get an instructor.

I have friends that play about once a week, but go to the range almost every day. Mainly because they can spend 1 hour a day on the range and it just doesn't take up that much time for them. Whereas playing is about 4-5 hours for them and they have to cut a deal with the wife to do that. So they would rather go to the range and get better and then play once a week and see their scores get better.

Of course, you need a good instructor.

I would recommend understanding how one compresses the golf ball (hit ball first, then take divot) and understand the correct laws of ball flight. From there, I would hit a lot of chip shots and pitch shots. Basically, work your way up to the full swing instead of starting right off with the full swing. Working on compressing the golf ball on those pitch shots and chip shots.

And if you do work with an instructor, I highly recommend getting a video camera to record your swing on the range. This way you can check up on yourself to make sure you are doing what your instructor is saying.

I recommend the Casio EX-FH25. It's a digital camera and video recorder in one. Think it goes for $225.







YR

 

[Chocolate Lab]

This is JMO... But I personally don't care for it, and feel that it's 90% a gimmick "angle" used by instructors to sell themselves.

Is there some validity to it? Sure, one can obviously play that way. Hogan had some S&T in his swing, though he obviously "dug it out of the dirt" and didn't have it sold to him.

I would much rather see a beginner learn the fundamentals that are universal to pretty much any swing method: Grip, stance, feeling the clubhead swing, etc. That doesn't say that S&T excludes those things in any way, but IMO the S&T teaching is more for advanced guys trying to fine-tune themselves.

One thing I will warn you against is mixing different swing methods. I did that when I started out many years ago and it wrecked me for a few years. As with so many things in life, there are many ways to skin a cat and they all work, but in many cases you can't mix and match between them. Jack Nicklaus and Ben Hogan are two of the very greatest players who ever lived, but their swings couldn't be more different.

Anyway, whatever you do, Rich is absolutely correct with the timeless golf wisdom to work on your short game first, because that determines so much of your score. Become a really good putter and chipper, and then you can shoot good scores and enjoy the game as your swing improves.

 

[ethiostar]

Keep 'em coming guys and thank you.

 

[Doomsday101]

Keep 'em coming guys and thank you.

I fully agree with their take on chipping and putting and would go as far as saying the game from 120 in is where you will lower your score.

As for the swing I don't use the stack and tilt, I learned the Hogan swing when I was 7 and have stayed with my same swing all of these years and it works for me as a 5 handicap.

I do know a couple of guys who use the stack and tilt and it work for them they are able to control the ball and keep it pretty much in the fairway.

So I will not tell you it will not work I will say there are some different swings even on the PGA but to me the key has always been keeping a swing as simple as possible to be able to repeat that same swing time after time
.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

This is JMO... But I personally don't care for it, and feel that it's 90% a gimmick "angle" used by instructors to sell themselves.

Part of it is. S&T is really MORAD for dummies. IMO, it's dummed down to appeal more to the masses. That's what I don't really care for.

Is there some validity to it? Sure, one can obviously play that way. Hogan had some S&T in his swing, though he obviously "dug it out of the dirt" and didn't have it sold to him.

Every golfer that's ever played on Tour has some of the pieces to the S&T swing. What S&T prefers is a 'centered' pivot, but if a golfer has a pivot where they are leaning towards the target in the backswing...they'll take that as well. That's typically the biggest difference in a classic golf swing like Hogan's versus the S&T. But the other stuff....turning the shoulders at 90* angle to the spine, Getting the hands behind the righ shoulder at the top of the swing, left knee flexed at impact, etc....Hogan had those and that's what S&T teaches.

Digging it out of the dirt is great if you can do it. But, it takes a long time to do so and many golfers try that and never figure it out. That's where teaching should help...explaining the science of the swing to the golfer and then getting the golfer to understand how to implement that into their own swing.

I would much rather see a beginner learn the fundamentals that are universal to pretty much any swing method: Grip, stance, feeling the clubhead swing, etc. That doesn't say that S&T excludes those things in any way, but IMO the S&T teaching is more for advanced guys trying to fine-tune themselves.

The problem with those fundamentals is that they are not uniform in nature. My belief is that the fundamentals of anything should be somewhat uniform in nature.

Let's take Trevno and Hogan, two of the all-time great ballstrikers. Hogan had a weak style grip. Trevino had a very strong style grip. Both had different stances (Trevino 'aim left, swing right, walk straight', Hogan would have a closed stance with the long clubs and an open stance with shorter clubs).

If Trevino had come to an instructor and was hooking the ball, most instructors that live by those 'fundamentals' would tell him to change his strong grip. But the reality is that the strong grip had little to do with it.

And you can go all across the spectrum with those 'fundamentals.' Furyk uses a double overlap grip. I've tried that on the range and to me...that grip is insane. But, it works for him. And there's a couple of good players on the Nationwide Tour who play cross-handed.

So to me, how would one define a 'good grip?'

I think golfers are better off if instruction can instead say 'okay, here's how you grip the club and because you grip it this way, it will cause this, this and that (typically) to happen in the golf swing.'

To me...and the S&T instructors I know are generally in agreement...the fundamentals of the swing are:

- Clubface Control
- Clubhead path control
- Low point control
- Effectively and Efficiently Pivoting Your Body

Obviously, 'control' can be a bit ambiguous. But, I think we can define 'control' as getting something to do what you want it to do. And there are varying levels of control. I think somebody who can control where the clubface is pointing at impact on 90% of their shots has great control. Somebody who does that a less amount of the time has lesser control.

And we can measure those with tools like Trackman and FlightScope launch monitors.

Anyway, my point is that there are so many different ways to swing the club. But, if you understand that 'this will cause that' you're likely better off because it will allow you to more quickly develop a swing of your own that works. You'll start to know your tendencies.

Although I will say...learn the correct ball flight laws (aka D-Plane). You'll quicken your learning process by multifold. I went by the old ball flight laws for 20 years and all it did was confuse me even more.





YR

 

[Chocolate Lab]

I'm really not sure what you are arguing here, Rich. If you ask any group of top instructors what the three or four most important fundamentals are, I guarantee you that grip will be one of the answers for all of them. Does every grip have to be identical? If there only one way to do it? Of course not. But that doesn't mean you don't need a sound way to hold the club. It's almost impossible to play good golf with a bad grip. I don't see how that point is even debatable.

And I hope you don't take this personally, because you're a really good poster who expresses himself well and I always enjoy your takes. I also enjoy this kind of discussion. But IMO your post is what drives me crazy with a lot of golf instruction these days. It's is way, *way* too technical and complicated, at least for beginners. I mean, what is "low point control"? The only one of those four points I agree with is an effective pivot. The rest of it could be useful for a technical-type thinker who already has a good understanding of his swing, but it's much more likely to tie a beginner like Ethio in knots.

I agree much more with a Manuel de la Torre or a Harvey Penick or a guy who was considered maybe the best ball striker ever, Wild Bill Mehlhorn. If a S&T teacher (or any of these overly-technical modern teachers) listened to what he teaches, they'd probably laugh. But it's unbelievably effective. If a golfer gets what these guys teach and then wants to refine things with S&T type instruction, fine. But I'd never fill the head of a beginner with these thoughts from the start. It's putting the cart before the horse.

 

[CowboyDan]

What's the difference between S&T and the "Natural Golf Swing" fad from 10 - 15 years ago?

 

[Doomsday101]

What's the difference between S&T and the "Natural Golf Swing" fad from 10 - 15 years ago?

Not much I do think for people taking up the game it gives them a basic to start from

http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-instruction/2007-06/stackandtilt1_gd0706

 

[CowboyDan]

Not knocking it, just curious. I'm of the opinion that if it works for you, do it. I'm all about getting more people to play a game that I love.

 

[Doomsday101]

Not knocking it, just curious. I'm of the opinion that if it works for you, do it. I'm all about getting more people to play a game that I love.

As long as these new people know proper golf etiquette. You don't have to be a pro or even good to play quickly and without screwing around. Nothing worse then getting stuck behind a group of golfers who take 5 hours to play. I have played with people who hit worm burners and play as quickly as I do. I figure a normal round of golf should take you 3.5 to 4 hours and some places I have played they enforce that.

I was lucky as a kid my dad taught me the proper etiquette and had me learn on the driving range before he took me out with him and his friends.