Golfers: Stack and Tilt?

[Doomsday101]

I do it a bit differently in FLA. I schedule a tee time around 2pm or so because by then there's nobody on the course and my dad and I can play 18 in about 2.5 hours. We're in a cart, so it doesn't get too hot. If we play in the morning, that's when everybody plays and it's a 4 hour round.





YR

very nice courses there, When I was in Orlando I got a chance to play at ChampionsGate Golf Club. Very nice course

 

[Doomsday101]

Overlapping.

My first year playing as a kid I used an interlocking and it was by accident. I was taught overlapping, but mistook it for an interlocking grip. Then I went to overlapping throughout my junior and collegiate golf years. Took 8 years off from the game and when I got back into the game, 1 day I was practicing and got a blister on my hand, so I tried the interlocking again and it worked well. So, all of 2009 I used interlocking.

However, I switched back to overlapping because I think it offers better control of the clubhead.

I tried Furyk's double overlapping grip on the range once and the club went flying about 30 yards.




YR

When I 1st picked up a club as kid I used the interlocking but changed to the overlapping and have used it ever since. My grandfather he was a very good golfer but used a baseball grip. I tried it and just have no feel for that grip.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

To me, the swing is an incredibly complex motion with so many different ways to hit the ball effectively that just makes it even more complex. So treating it as something simple is incomplete instruction and often times just confuses people more.

It's like wanting to learn calculus, but the teacher saying that they just want to teach the students how to add and subtract because it's simple.

I totally disagree with this. Sure, you can make break almost any human athletic movement into its component parts and talk about how complex it is, but that doesn't mean it's useful to the athlete to think in those terms. And the acclaimed teachers I cited earlier agree with me.

But I agree that some of this (or a lot of this) depends on the personality of the student. A John Daly could never function well thinking of the swing as a hundred component mechanical parts, while a Nick Faldo almost requires that. I still submit that a beginner is more likely to have his brain tied in knots when he starts thinking of how complex it all is before he's even really learned how to play. He first needs to learn how to hold the club, how to stand to the ball, and how to get the clubhead swinging... Then he can start mechanically fine tuning.

Again, look up Bobby Shave and Wild Bill Mehlhorn. Well, you won't like it because it's not that Faldo-Bobby Clampitt mechanical way of looking at things. But Hogan and Snead said Mehlhorn was maybe the best ballstriker they ever saw, and he is vehemently anti-mechanical thought.

One reason I'm posting in this thread is because Mr. Shave insists that we're making the game and the swing too complicated... And I think he's 100% correct.

BTW, funny you mention Azinger... I'm a huge fan of his teacher, John Redman. Like you said, his method just happened to mesh with Azinger's naturally strong grip. If he'd happened to have had a weak grip, Redman would've changed him, or Azinger would've found another teacher. But that story is pretty amazing of how Zinger couldn't break 80 two days in a row and then went on to become great. It all started with Redman's incredibly *simple* swing.

 

[Doomsday101]

http://www.sedonagolfresort.com/sites/courses/custom2.asp?id=998&page=57233

http://www.oakcreekcountryclub.com/golf/proto/oakcreekcountryclub/

Here are the 2 courses Sedona, AZ I will be playing. Really looking forward to it

 

[Yakuza Rich]

very nice courses there, When I was in Orlando I got a chance to play at ChampionsGate Golf Club. Very nice course

You should try Shingle Creek. Right next to Sea World. Primo golf there. Also, if you can make the trip out there...try World Woods Pine Barrens Course. Good of value of golf as you will find and it's ranked #83 in the world.




YR

 

[Doomsday101]

You should try Shingle Creek. Right next to Sea World. Primo golf there. Also, if you can make the trip out there...try World Woods Pine Barrens Course. Good of value of golf as you will find and it's ranked #83 in the world.




YR

I may have to get back out there and try these course. Every year I take 1 week of vacation with my dad and we play golf. Over the last 10 years we have worked our way up the east coast. Last year I played up in New York and played liberty national. I have had the pleasure of playing many nice courses on the east coast. This coming trip will be my 1st in Arz.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

I'm not a fan of Faldo's mechanics. There's a reason why hit it so short. I know plenty about Bill Melhorn and guys like Paul Bertholy and Ernest Jones.

It's not thinking about the swing in a mechanical way that gets golfers. It's usually that they have the factual parts of the mechanics incorrect and they don't know how to use feel to learn the golf swing.

For instance, I supposedly have an instructor who is 'mechanical.' Currently we are working on some things in my backswing because they are causing some problems at impact. So we go over what's happening mechanically, then we go over me actually swinging the club correctly. Lastly, we try to work together to develop a feel for me swinging the club correctly.

The end result is in order to not over-swing, I just feel like that once my thumbs point straight at the sky...i stop my swing.

That's it. That's all. I'll do some check ups on video to see how I'm progressing, but we've figured out the feel that works for *me* and now we are trying to ingrain it.

On the flip side, a guy like Melhorne will tell the golfer what to feel in hopes their mechanics will get better.

But the problem with that is what feels worked for Bill Melhorne may not work for me. And the feel I use may not work for you. Which the feel you may use may not work for Joe Schmoe. And so on and so forth.

I think some unskilled teachers who do understand the mechanics don't understand that you have to take those mechanics and then get the student to understand how to develop their own personal feel for them.

Like I said, I don't personally use the S&T, but I have friends who teach it and my friends that teach all work to get their students to develop their own feels that work for them. But, if I go and read other golf instruction books, it's usually filled with 'this feel works for me and it should work for you' type of instruction.






3JACK

 

[Doomsday101]

I'm not a fan of Faldo's mechanics. There's a reason why hit it so short. I know plenty about Bill Melhorn and guys like Paul Bertholy and Ernest Jones.

It's not thinking about the swing in a mechanical way that gets golfers. It's usually that they have the factual parts of the mechanics incorrect and they don't know how to use feel to learn the golf swing.

For instance, I supposedly have an instructor who is 'mechanical.' Currently we are working on some things in my backswing because they are causing some problems at impact. So we go over what's happening mechanically, then we go over me actually swinging the club correctly. Lastly, we try to work together to develop a feel for me swinging the club correctly.

The end result is in order to not over-swing, I just feel like that once my thumbs point straight at the sky...i stop my swing.

That's it. That's all. I'll do some check ups on video to see how I'm progressing, but we've figured out the feel that works for *me* and now we are trying to ingrain it.

On the flip side, a guy like Melhorne will tell the golfer what to feel in hopes their mechanics will get better.

But the problem with that is what feels worked for Bill Melhorne may not work for me. And the feel I use may not work for you. Which the feel you may use may not work for Joe Schmoe. And so on and so forth.

I think some unskilled teachers who do understand the mechanics don't understand that you have to take those mechanics and then get the student to understand how to develop their own personal feel for them.

Like I said, I don't personally use the S&T, but I have friends who teach it and my friends that teach all work to get their students to develop their own feels that work for them. But, if I go and read other golf instruction books, it's usually filled with 'this feel works for me and it should work for you' type of instruction.






3JACK

There is a lot of truth in that. Myself I have never had an instructor I do video tape my swing and now and then have to make subtle adjustments. Even in High school our golf coach was not a golfer he was just an adult that had to be present, heck I drove myself to most of the tournament even those out of town. It is amazing how little the swing can be off and how big of a difference it can make.

For me it is easy to figure out what adjustments I need to make since I have had the same swing for 40 years. I would say though the most important things I have learned over the years is better course management during a round. I will say much of the things I have learned from pros is based on visual for whatever reason I am able to learn by watching them than being told verbally. I learned the flop shot of Mickleson by studying film and now I have become very good with that shot. No doubt it took practice but the fundamentals of the shot was done by just watching

 

[Yakuza Rich]

I get accused of 'being mechanical' because I use a video tape in almost every range session. But, that couldn't be further from the truth. I use it for maybe a handful of swings. I use it early on to check the progress of what I'm working on. If I'm showing no progress as to what I've been working on, there's no reason for me to get a lesson because I'm simply not doing what we went over in the last lesson. Only if I go a little while without making any progress...then it's time for a lesson to go over where I'm going wrong. Other than that, I can use the camera to say 'okay, you're not doing it like you're supposed to...let's go back to what we worked on last time.' Then I'll work a bit, film another swing and usually I'll see the progression.

The other part of using a camera is so I don't fall back into any old habits or create something new that is no good. I know that if I can get those things corrected as soon as they start...the better off I am. It beats letting them slide for awhile and then trying to get them out of your swing later on.

Essentially, I use video to make the best use out of the limited practice time I have.

Also, a feel that works for me generally tends to 'wear off.' I may get that feel to work for me for a day, a week, a month, a year, etc. But eventually, it's probably going to wear off. So the camera is there to tell me if my feels are working or not. And if they are not...go back and figure out the mechanics and then try to figure out a new feel that works.


It's also important to understand that the feel usually isn't real. I think that screws up a ton of higher handicappers. They think what they feel is really happening in their swing, when more often than not what they feel is nowhere near what they are doing. You can use that to your advantage, you just need to understand that concept first. That's one thing I don't like about Del Torre's teaching...he believes you shouldn't try to feel an exagerrated motion because you'll wind up performing that exagerrated motion. But, I find that to be hogwash. I could tell you stories of some great golfers who used the feel of an exagerrated motion and never came close to actually implementing that exagerrated motion.







YR

 

[Chocolate Lab]

Hmm. I've read Shave and Mehlhorn's book and watched DVDs of his personal instruction on the practice tee from the 60s, and I never saw Mehlhorn tell people what they should feel. He even says that everyone will swing a little differently because everyone is built differently.

And I disagree that thinking about things in a mechanical way doesn't hurt golfers. It's hurt me and it's hurt tons of players a lot better than me.

Anyway... Ethio, if your S&T book works for you, keep it up.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

It should feel as though you move nothing else but your arms when you hit a golf ball. Although your legs are carrying your body out of the way at all times. On the backswing as well as the downswing. - Mehlorn 'Golf Secrets Exposed'

The palm of the hand and the face of the club, assuming the face of the club has no loft to it at all, would be exactly the same hitting a golf ball. That goes for a short shot or a long one…that is so natural, particularly if you associate clapping your hands. Now, hold your hands down in front of you, palms meeting each other about the same position you would taking hold of a golf club. Now clap those hands. - Mehlorn (the clapping of the hands is a prescribed feel/visualization)

That’s the only time that you will actually feel a rolling of the forearm or a supinating or a pronating action. When you put your hands together and get in that same position on either side you never feel an semblance of a pronating or a supinating action. You only feel it when you take one hand from one side of the clap and meet the palm on the other side.


It's not that prescribing a feel can never work. But I think it's problematic because people tend to feel things differently and one can probably better own it if they develop their own feel that works for them rather than trying to use a feel prescribed by an instructor.









YR

 

[Doomsday101]

It should feel as though you move nothing else but your arms when you hit a golf ball. Although your legs are carrying your body out of the way at all times. On the backswing as well as the downswing. - Mehlorn 'Golf Secrets Exposed'

The palm of the hand and the face of the club, assuming the face of the club has no loft to it at all, would be exactly the same hitting a golf ball. That goes for a short shot or a long one…that is so natural, particularly if you associate clapping your hands. Now, hold your hands down in front of you, palms meeting each other about the same position you would taking hold of a golf club. Now clap those hands. - Mehlorn (the clapping of the hands is a prescribed feel/visualization)

That’s the only time that you will actually feel a rolling of the forearm or a supinating or a pronating action. When you put your hands together and get in that same position on either side you never feel an semblance of a pronating or a supinating action. You only feel it when you take one hand from one side of the clap and meet the palm on the other side.


It's not that prescribing a feel can never work. But I think it's problematic because people tend to feel things differently and one can probably better own it if they develop their own feel that works for them rather than trying to use a feel prescribed by an instructor.









YR

I notice for me tempo is a big part of my swing and the part I will at times struggle with as I tend to speed the swing up which in turn will cause me to shorten the back swing. When I'm on tempo the back swing becomes full and my blance going through the ball is perfect. this is one of my main objectives when I hit balls before a round.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

And I disagree that thinking about things in a mechanical way doesn't hurt golfers. It's hurt me and it's hurt tons of players a lot better than me.

I don't think at the *basic* level that's the case.

I think it has to do with the instructor teaching the mechanics and teaching them inaccurately or they understand the mechanics, but they have no idea how to teach them to the student so they can understand them.

For instance, Butch Harmon in his book has laws of ball flight wrong. He still disputes this despite world class engineers and physics experts and professors saying differently. And he still disputes this despite measuring devices saying that he is indeed wrong.

But, if he goes out and teaches some mechanics to the swing and it's based off those incorrect ball flight laws...the golfer could very well get worse because the information he's using is incorrect.

So is 'teaching mechanics' wrong or is the teacher who is teaching the incorrect mechanics wrong?

I prefer to think the teacher is wrong.

For instance, a snap hook is caused because the clubface is way too closed at impact. You can have a perfectly, dead square to the target path...but if your clubface is dead close, you will hit a snap hook. There is no way around it...it's physics. It's a *fact*.

However, Harmon in his book says that if you snap hook it, it's because you 'came over the top' and the path was going left. And that the ball starts to the left because of the path (it doesn't, it starts left because that's where the face is pointing).

So, let's say you hit a snap hook. But the reality is that your clubface was dead closed and your path was actually *perfect*. In Harmon's case, he would teach you to swing out to rightfield more because he does not accurately understand the ball flight.

The problem with this is that by swinging more out to the right...you're *more likely* to hit a hook now. If he had understood the ball flight laws accurately, he would fix the closed clubface...not the path.

So is 'teaching mechanics' wrong or is it that Butch is wrong because he happens to have those mechanics wrong.

Stuff like that has happened to me and literally drove me to quit the game because so many instructors, particularly the top instructors (some of whom I've gone to for lessons before) had no clue about why the ball flies like it does and thus, gave me the wrong remedy for my problems.

That to me is the hardest part for people who want to get better, getting a teacher who accurately presents information. Of course, I don't believe any teacher is going to be 100% accurate all of the time, but some of the basics...facts of life stuff...like the ball flight laws are pretty important.





YR

 

[Doomsday101]

I don't think at the *basic* level that's the case.

I think it has to do with the instructor teaching the mechanics and teaching them inaccurately or they understand the mechanics, but they have no idea how to teach them to the student so they can understand them.

For instance, Butch Harmon in his book has laws of ball flight wrong. He still disputes this despite world class engineers and physics experts and professors saying differently. And he still disputes this despite measuring devices saying that he is indeed wrong.

But, if he goes out and teaches some mechanics to the swing and it's based off those incorrect ball flight laws...the golfer could very well get worse because the information he's using is incorrect.

So is 'teaching mechanics' wrong or is the teacher who is teaching the incorrect mechanics wrong?

I prefer to think the teacher is wrong.

For instance, a snap hook is caused because the clubface is way too closed at impact. You can have a perfectly, dead square to the target path...but if your clubface is dead close, you will hit a snap hook. There is no way around it...it's physics. It's a *fact*.

However, Harmon in his book says that if you snap hook it, it's because you 'came over the top' and the path was going left. And that the ball starts to the left because of the path (it doesn't, it starts left because that's where the face is pointing).

So, let's say you hit a snap hook. But the reality is that your clubface was dead closed and your path was actually *perfect*. In Harmon's case, he would teach you to swing out to rightfield more because he does not accurately understand the ball flight.

The problem with this is that by swinging more out to the right...you're *more likely* to hit a hook now. If he had understood the ball flight laws accurately, he would fix the closed clubface...not the path.

So is 'teaching mechanics' wrong or is it that Butch is wrong because he happens to have those mechanics wrong.

Stuff like that has happened to me and literally drove me to quit the game because so many instructors, particularly the top instructors (some of whom I've gone to for lessons before) had no clue about why the ball flies like it does and thus, gave me the wrong remedy for my problems.

That to me is the hardest part for people who want to get better, getting a teacher who accurately presents information. Of course, I don't believe any teacher is going to be 100% accurate all of the time, but some of the basics...facts of life stuff...like the ball flight laws are pretty important.





YR

I do agree that Harmon is incorrect. I can use the same swing over and over yet if I toe the club face in using the same swing I'll put a draw or hook on the ball and if I leave the club face a bit open using the same swing I'll fade the ball.

 

[Doomsday101]

[youtube]wZbvM9whMxM&feature[/youtube]

 

[ethiostar]

Thanks guys! This is very educational for me.

A few things i should mention....

-I am one of those people who will read up on everything i can get my hands on and talk to everyone/anyone with an expertise when i get into a new hobby (I am a researcher by trade as well). I want to understand the very basics/fundamentals of whatever it is i am attempting to learn. I also want to know the variations that exist in how to accomplish the particular task. I don't do it until it becomes a chore or tiresome but IMO, in the long-term, that gives me the tools i need to process a lot of information and have the ability to become creative in what i am involved in. I mention this to say that i don't mind getting a bit technical in the beginning and getting divergent opinions, i actually prefer it. The learning process is what is fun and exciting for me.

-I particularly liked the advice about working on my short game early on. In fact after going to the driving range for a couple of months and hitting the ball with my driver and 3 wood exclusively, i started devoting 75% of my time on my mid and short clubs. I have been starting with my 60 degree wedge and working my way up. As a result i have been able to be a lot more accurate with my short game. Toward the end of my time at the driving range, i dedicate about 30 minutes to work on my Charles Barkley swing

-Another great advice i received (about a week ago) was from an old man who worked at the driving range. He watched me for a little while and told me to slow down my back swing. I tried it and it made a lot of difference. He also told me to try the overlapping grip but when i tried it it felt awkward and unnatural to me so I went back to a baseball grip. However, i think I did notice that the overlapping grip packed a bit more power. Maybe i will try it a bit more and see if i can get over the newness of it.

-On a side note, I have played disc-golf for almost 2 decades now and there are a lot of similarities, obviously, including etiquette. Although i don't know all the rules for golf yet most seem common sense to me. It's a matter of being considerate to those who are also trying to enjoy themselves.

-Yakuza, i read up on the D-plane concept a little bit and, although the document i found online was a bit too technical, it made a lot of sense and did a good job of explaining the basic principles of ball flight. I can't begin to understand the physics behind it but i really don't need to. Thanks for pointing it out.

-Please keep the conversation going, this is wonderful.

-Maybe we can talk about the best advice you've ever received.

 

[CowboyDan]

One of the best peices of advice I've ever received was from Anika Sorenstam (well, not directly.....it was something she said on a show)....she said she only swings with 75% of her full power. This was an eye-opener for me, who at the time was a young, ego driven, grip it and rip it type of golfer. I tried to kill ever ball I hit. When I heard her say this, for whatever reason, it really hit home with me. I started trying it and the results were concrete and immediate. I actually started hitting the ball longer and straighter and could play better deeper into the round, because I wasn't exhausting myself with my crazy over-swinging. Seems like a simple concept, right? But as you said about your backswing, most golfers go too quick, especially when they're starting out and are trying to find their correct tempo.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

I play to a +2.4 handicap at the moment and every day I practice I probably take 1/2 swings on 1/2 the balls I hit on the range. It's a great way to learn. I would also recommend hitting a lot of 3-irons (if you carry a 3-iron). Mainly because that will help make your swing more precise. Put it this way, if you can hit a 3-iron really well, odds are you will be able to hit the rest of your irons very well.

As far as 'D-Plane' goes....D-Plane stands for 'Descriptive Plane.' A term coined by Dr. Theodore Jorgenson, a physicist at Nebraska, in his book 'The Physics of Golf.'

D-Plane is another way of saying 'the laws of ball flight.'

In the golf swing at impact, we have 2 things going on

1. The face angle at impact (where the clubface is pointing at impact)

2. The direction the clubHEAD is traveling thru impact (aka the path).

The ball flight has two facets to it as well

A. The initial direction the ball goes in.

B. The curve it has (hook/draw or slice/fade or straight).

So...what we are trying to figure out it what causes the initial direction and what causes the curvature.

Initial Direction - Initial direction is about 85% due to where the clubface is pointing at impact. So, if the ball starts left, the face is pointing to the left. If it goes to the right initially, the face was pointing out to the right. The other 15% is due to the path.

So, let's say you have a clubface pointing at the target (0.0*). And we have a path going 10* out to the right of the target (also known as an 'inside-to-out') path. The ball's initial direction would start out about 1.5* right of the target (because 1.5* is 15% of that 10* path out to the right).



CURVATURE - is dependent upon where the path is going with relation to the face. If the path is further out to the right of where the face is pointing...that will impart hook spin.

If the path is going left of where the face is pointing at impact, that will impart fade spin (provided you are a right handed golfer)

So, let's say our clubface is going 5* right of the target. But our path is going 10* right of the target. That will mean that the path is going further out to the right than where the face is pointing. So, this ball will start out to the right initially (push) and hook because of the path.


That's the basics of D-Plane. It's great to know because like I said, something like a duck hook means that your clubface is dead closed at impact and you just need to fix the face.

There's more to D-Plane, but understanding the basics is the best place to start and then once you fully understand that...you can move onto understanding other valuable stuff. If you have any questions, just ask.





YR

 

[ethiostar]

So, I stoped by a small golf shop close to my house to see what they have and I ended up buying a used Ping Eye 2 3-iron black dot. I'm going to take that sucker with me next time I go to the driving range and test it out.

 

[Doomsday101]

So, I stoped by a small golf shop close to my house to see what they have and I ended up buying a used Ping Eye 2 3-iron black dot. I'm going to take that sucker with me next time I go to the driving range and test it out.

I have not had a 3 iron in my bag for years. Nothing wrong with it but I just find the utility clubs are easier to hit. Heck even more pros are going to the hybrids. I was skeptical myself until I tried one out.

http://www.golfsmith.com/ps/display/?page=ps_buyersguide_hybrids