Goodell Legislating Morality?

[InmanRoshi]

He said that basketball couldnt get to viewers despite the tremendous basketball being played lately becasue of the NBA's image. that was false.

It wasn't false. You posted that numbers are up from the previous year, which were horrible. Last year's NBA Finals drew an all time low in the Nielson Ratings. Just because they're not as abysmal as the year before doesn't mean they're good.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

It wasn't false. You posted that numbers are up from the previous year, which were horrible. Last year's NBA Finals drew an all time low in the Nielson Ratings. Just because they're not as abysmal as the year before doesn't mean they're good.

You said they couldnt get through to the viewers meaning the better basketball was outweighed by the poor image when in fact they were getting through to the viewers.

As for the finals htat had more to do with it being the Cleveland market and the San Antonio market which are two of the smaller markets. How about some stats for the entire year instead of cherry picking 5 games at the endof the season. my numbers were for the entirety of the year.

At the endof the day, you have zero basis to say that its basketballs image that has anything to do with the ratings. that is just baseless.

 

[InmanRoshi]

You said they couldnt get through to the viewers meaning the better basketball was outweighed by the poor image when in fact they were getting through to the viewers.

As for the finals htat had more to do with it being the Cleveland market and the San Antonio market which are two of the smaller markets. How about some stats for the entire year instead of cherry picking 5 games at the endof the season. my numbers were for the entirety of the year.

At the endof the day, you have zero basis to say that its basketballs image that has anything to do with the ratings. that is just baseless.

Network Nielson ratings for the NBA Finals for the last 10 years

NBC 1997 Chicago Bull vs Utah Jazz 16.8
NBC 1998 Chicago Bulls vs Utah Jazz 18.7
NBC 1999 San Antonio Spurs vs New York Knicks 11.3
NBC 2000 Los Angeles Lakers vs Indiana Pacers 11.6
NBC 2001 Los Angeles Lakers vs Philadelphia 76ers 12.1
NBC 2002 Los Angeles Lakers vs New Jersey Nets 10.2
ABC 2003 San Antonio Spurs vs New Jersey Nets 6.5
ABC 2004 Detroit Pistons 4 vs Los Angeles Lakers 11.5
ABC 2005 San Antonio Spurs vs Detroit Pistons 8.2
ABC 2006 Miami Heat vs Dallas Mavericks 8.5
ABC 2007 San Antonio Spurs vs Cleveland Cavaliers 6.2

Regular season NBA ratings on network TV since 1996[1] Net. Year Rating
NBC 1996 5.0
NBC 1997 4.7
NBC 1998 4.6
NBC 1999 4.3
NBC 2000 3.3
NBC 2001 3.0
NBC 2002 N/A
ABC 2003 2.6
ABC 2004 2.4
ABC 2005 2.2
ABC 2006 2.2


... you were saying?

 

[TellerMorrow34]

OTOH basketball has over 5 times as many games as football does. Moreso the finals of the NBA is at least 4 games and up to 7 compared to one for the NFL.

I will not argue that football is the top sport in the US but to say that the NBA isnt becasue of its image is just baseless nonsense.

Which I didn't say a word about. I never mentioned their image. They just dont have the same ratings was all I said.


I see where you were getting that now, though. Cause I thought the above poster had an excellent post. My bad.

I'm not saying image has anything to do with it, or not, cause I don't know. I just thought he put up a nice post.

 

[TellerMorrow34]

If they were that much of a distraction they would be cut by their team.

You mean like Cincy just did with Chris Henry after he'd caused enough distractions?

 

[TellerMorrow34]

Network Nielson ratings for the NBA Finals for the last 10 years

NBC 1997 Chicago Bull vs Utah Jazz 16.8
NBC 1998 Chicago Bulls vs Utah Jazz 18.7
NBC 1999 San Antonio Spurs vs New York Knicks 11.3
NBC 2000 Los Angeles Lakers vs Indiana Pacers 11.6
NBC 2001 Los Angeles Lakers vs Philadelphia 76ers 12.1
NBC 2002 Los Angeles Lakers vs New Jersey Nets 10.2
ABC 2003 San Antonio Spurs vs New Jersey Nets 6.5
ABC 2004 Detroit Pistons 4 vs Los Angeles Lakers 11.5
ABC 2005 San Antonio Spurs vs Detroit Pistons 8.2
ABC 2006 Miami Heat vs Dallas Mavericks 8.5
ABC 2007 San Antonio Spurs vs Cleveland Cavaliers 6.2

Regular season NBA ratings on network TV since 1996[1] Net. Year Rating
NBC 1996 5.0
NBC 1997 4.7
NBC 1998 4.6
NBC 1999 4.3
NBC 2000 3.3
NBC 2001 3.0
NBC 2002 N/A
ABC 2003 2.6
ABC 2004 2.4
ABC 2005 2.2
ABC 2006 2.2


... you were saying?

As I said I don't know if it's image, or what, but it's pretty clear by these ratings that they have fallen, and are falling, pretty significantly from where they were 10 years ago.


Of course something to factor in here, just as highly as image, is the Michael Jordan factor. Look at just how much the ratings fell off rom 97 and 98 to just one year later in 99 when MJ wasn't playing in the finals.

So I'd say that the start power of MJ, which I don't believe has ever been completely replaced (in terms of across the board marketability and such) is a pretty huge factor as well.

 

[InmanRoshi]

As I said I don't know if it's image, or what, but it's pretty clear by these ratings that they have fallen, and are falling, pretty significantly from where they were 10 years ago.


Of course something to factor in here, just as highly as image, is the Michael Jordan factor. Look at just how much the ratings fell off rom 97 and 98 to just one year later in 99 when MJ wasn't playing in the finals.

So I'd say that the start power of MJ, which I don't believe has ever been completely replaced (in terms of across the board marketability and such) is a pretty huge factor as well.

The MJ retirement does hurt, but that doesn't account for losing over half of your audience in the span of 10 years. Besides, it's not like the league isn't filled with young marketable stars right now. When you lose MJ and replace it with Spreewelll choking his coach, a Portland Trailblazer getting busted every other day, Shawn Kemp fathering 9 illegitimate children and Allen Iverson getting charged with 14 counts and refusing to go to practice ... that turns people off. That's exactly what Goodell wants to avoid.

 

[TNCowboy]

I don't really know about the popularity of the NBA, but I used to watch it with almost the same fervor I watched the NFL.

When Magic, Bird, and Jordan were in the league, it was must-see TV. Now it's kind of "eh" for me.

The thuggish attitude of some players is a negative for me, but the biggest drawback is that watching guys either shoot 3s or go for the highlight reel play over and over again is boring to me. That plus since Detroit had such success by mugging opponents 15-20 years ago, the style of play just isn't very appealing to me.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Network Nielson ratings for the NBA Finals for the last 10 years

NBC 1997 Chicago Bull vs Utah Jazz 16.8
NBC 1998 Chicago Bulls vs Utah Jazz 18.7
NBC 1999 San Antonio Spurs vs New York Knicks 11.3
NBC 2000 Los Angeles Lakers vs Indiana Pacers 11.6
NBC 2001 Los Angeles Lakers vs Philadelphia 76ers 12.1
NBC 2002 Los Angeles Lakers vs New Jersey Nets 10.2
ABC 2003 San Antonio Spurs vs New Jersey Nets 6.5
ABC 2004 Detroit Pistons 4 vs Los Angeles Lakers 11.5
ABC 2005 San Antonio Spurs vs Detroit Pistons 8.2
ABC 2006 Miami Heat vs Dallas Mavericks 8.5
ABC 2007 San Antonio Spurs vs Cleveland Cavaliers 6.2

Regular season NBA ratings on network TV since 1996[1] Net. Year Rating
NBC 1996 5.0
NBC 1997 4.7
NBC 1998 4.6
NBC 1999 4.3
NBC 2000 3.3
NBC 2001 3.0
NBC 2002 N/A
ABC 2003 2.6
ABC 2004 2.4
ABC 2005 2.2
ABC 2006 2.2


... you were saying?

Providing something you should have provided from the very begininng is not something to pat yourself on the back about. Its just doing what you should have done from the get go.

The funny thing is that these numbers are next to worthless as NBC and/or ABC only carried a game a week and that was only after football season was over for the Sunday games. TNT has been carrying the lionshare of the games for as long as I can remember.

Here is an article from last year talking about how the NBA made TNT the top cable channel.

NBA Makes TNT Ratings Leader


Anthony Crupi

MAY 30, 2007 -

TNT will wrap up the month of May as the top ad-supported cable network in prime time, averaging 2.6 million total viewers and 1.35 million adults 18-49, thanks in large part to its coverage of the National Basketball Association's playoffs.

According to Nielsen Media Research data for April 30 through May 27, the Turner net in May played host to nine of ad-supported cable’s top 20 most-watched programs, including game five of the Western Conference semifinals series between the Phoenix Suns and the San Antonio Spurs, which drew 4.97 million total viewers on May 16.

Perennial rival USA Network finished the month in second place, averaging 2.31 million viewers and 1.03 million adults 18-49. The net notched seven of the month’s top-10 most-watched programs with its Monday night WWE Raw showcase, taking the top spot with the latter half of the two-hour May 21 installment, which delivered 5.53 million viewers.

ESPN took the bronze, serving up 1.41 million viewers in prime, while TBS came in fourth (1.37 million) and Fox News Channel finished fifth (1.31 million).

The top four nets were all down year-to-year, as TNT’s total prime-time average fell 15 percent versus May 2006, USA dipped 4 percent, ESPN plummeted 29 percent and TBS slipped 5 percent. FNC was flat.

Meanwhile, non-ad-supported Disney Channel closed the month third among the measured cable universe, averaging 2.12 million viewers in prime, a slight 1 percent increase versus May 2006.

Among the top 25 cable nets, the biggest gainers in prime were: Court TV, which was up 38 percent versus May of last year, averaging 1.05 million viewers; VH1 (up 34 percent with 697,000 viewers) and A&E (up 30 percent with 1.1 million viewers). Sci Fi Channel also enjoyed a strong May, growing 22 percent with an average 1.08 million viewers, while AMC was up 16 percent to 914,000 and TLC grew 13 percent to 870,000.

Of the top 25 nets that suffered significant audience declines, FX lost 25 percent of its prime-time audience, averaging 1.13 million viewers, while Cartoon Network dropped 16 percent to 1.3 million viewers between 8 p.m. and 11 p.m. MTV skidded 13 percent (774,000), while its sibling nets Comedy Central and Spike TV were down 9 percent (873,000) and 8 percent (916,000), respectively.

http://www.mediaweek.com/mw/news/recent_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003591837

Even if NBC/ABC were the primary venue for the NBA you still fail to take the step to support your initial statement. You said

he NBA is the poster child for how an entire league and brand can be tainted. The NBA right now has more young stars and more good teams than anytime in league history, but they're still having problems reaching mainstream audiences and drawing big ratings because of the thug image that has tainted the league over the last decade.

We now know better. We now know that ratings have actually increased with all the new young talent and great games going around lately and we also know that the NBA was a big part in TNT being the top cable channel.

But lets look at the numbers that you specifically posted. The numbers took a nose dive after the 1999 season. First of all that was when the NBA lockout occured. Furthermore this was when the Chicago and New York franchises went into the toilet. Those just happen to be two of the biggest sporst markets in the country. After Shaw and Kobe broke up it went completely in the toilet.

But hey you say its about the image

If you were to ask me the biggest problem with basketball compared tot he other leagues its really simple. the NFL and MLB have farm systems in the NCAA and minor league baseball respectively.

In both of those leagues it is typical for a player to get 3 to 4 years of development time In basketball you are lucky for a HS prospect worth a flip to go to college for even a year. As such the fundamental skills have dropped across the league. With an 82 game schedule practices are infrequent where as in college and in development leagues the games are more spread out to allow teaching.

The NBA did create a development league and it is starting to pay dividends as teams are sending draft picks there to get instruction rather than have them sit on abench but its going to be around a decade until these players really start to saturate the league.

But to say that the rating are down because of image when the biggest markets are in the toilet and they just got out of a lockout is laughable. i wonder how the NFLs rating were after their strike in the early 80s.

 

[InmanRoshi]

And the cable network ratings are a much reliable and controlled indicator, given that the TV packages, channels and nights televised change umpteen times from season to season? Why don't you give a 10 year statistical anaylsis like I did, instead of just rehashing an article?


I'm not going to get into this because your MO around here is that you'll never admit that you're wrong even after you've been proven clearly wrong ... but you said that any indication that ratings have gone down are "baseless". They're clearly not baseless. It's an undeniable empiracle fact. And it's not an outlier season here or there ... its a steady downward trend over the last 10 years. Now you want to say the ratings are down, but not because of image issues? I guess it's just a strange and weird coinkydink that Stern starts implementing dress codes and drug testing for the players at the same time the ratings are cratering towards the toilet? Just a strange series of events that are absolutely in no way tied to each other. It's not like Stern would have any marketing or survey data to tie the two together or anything.

I'll let you keep moving the goal posts into an endless argument. It's what you do best.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

And the cable network ratings are a much reliable indicator, given that the TV packages have changed and nights played have been changed umpteen times from season to season?

I'm not going to get into this because your MO around here is that you'll never admit that you're wrong even after you've been proven clearly wrong ... but you said that any indication that ratings have gone down are "baseless". They're clearly not baseless. It's an undeniable empiracle fact. And it's not an outlier season here or there ... its a steady downward trend over the last 10 years.

I'll let you keep moving the goal posts. It's what you do best.

Were talking about TNT and ESPN which have been on basic cable for the last 20 years. The fact that they change nights and the ratings are still high is a good thing.

Actually if you make a compelling argument i will definitely admit to being wrong. Ask dbair or hostile, dbair and i got into it about OU's offensive scheme as i thought they still ran a spread offense. he was right i was wrong and I can admit it.

You just dont make a compelling argument. you just show that ratings are down in the NBA and assume thats evidence that its the images fault.

And i never said the rating going down was baseless. I said blaming it on image is baseless. its well known that the NBA has been losing rating for quite some time. thats not in question.

its not me moving the goalposts. its more about you not knowing where the goalpost was in the first place.

 

[TellerMorrow34]

Providing something you should have provided from the very begininng is not something to pat yourself on the back about. Its just doing what you should have done from the get go.

The funny thing is that these numbers are next to worthless as NBC and/or ABC only carried a game a week and that was only after football season was over for the Sunday games. TNT has been carrying the lionshare of the games for as long as I can remember.

Here is an article from last year talking about how the NBA made TNT the top cable channel.



http://www.mediaweek.com/mw/news/recent_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003591837

Even if NBC/ABC were the primary venue for the NBA you still fail to take the step to support your initial statement. You said



We now know better. We now know that ratings have actually increased with all the new young talent and great games going around lately and we also know that the NBA was a big part in TNT being the top cable channel.

But lets look at the numbers that you specifically posted. The numbers took a nose dive after the 1999 season. First of all that was when the NBA lockout occured. Furthermore this was when the Chicago and New York franchises went into the toilet. Those just happen to be two of the biggest sporst markets in the country. After Shaw and Kobe broke up it went completely in the toilet.

But hey you say its about the image

If you were to ask me the biggest problem with basketball compared tot he other leagues its really simple. the NFL and MLB have farm systems in the NCAA and minor league baseball respectively.

In both of those leagues it is typical for a player to get 3 to 4 years of development time In basketball you are lucky for a HS prospect worth a flip to go to college for even a year. As such the fundamental skills have dropped across the league. With an 82 game schedule practices are infrequent where as in college and in development leagues the games are more spread out to allow teaching.

The NBA did create a development league and it is starting to pay dividends as teams are sending draft picks there to get instruction rather than have them sit on abench but its going to be around a decade until these players really start to saturate the league.

But to say that the rating are down because of image when the biggest markets are in the toilet and they just got out of a lockout is laughable. i wonder how the NFLs rating were after their strike in the early 80s.

I don't know about all the rest of it, you could very well be right, but the notion that NBC and such only carried one game a week during the seasons is completely wrong. I can remember watching plenty of triple header weekends on NBC during basketball season. Especially back in the day of MJ cause they'd have a Bulls game, usually a Knicks game, and then someone else who was hot at the time.

At least that is how it was around here cause I can remember watching basketball from like 2 oclock on Sunday till that night when the third game would be over. This was, of course, back when I actually cared to watch the league. So if they've stopped the double and triple game Sundays, in the last ten years, I have missed that.

But I know they absolutely used to have them cause it was my second favorite thing about Sundays, after football of course.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I don't know about all the rest of it, you could very well be right, but the notion that NBC and such only carried one game a week during the seasons is completely wrong. I can remember watching plenty of triple header weekends on NBC during basketball season. Especially back in the day of MJ cause they'd have a Bulls game, usually a Knicks game, and then someone else who was hot at the time.

At least that is how it was around here cause I can remember watching basketball from like 2 oclock on Sunday till that night when the third game would be over. This was, of course, back when I actually cared to watch the league. So if they've stopped the double and triple game Sundays, in the last ten years, I have missed that.

But I know they absolutely used to have them cause it was my second favorite thing about Sundays, after football of course.

Youre right i actually think ABC carries 2 games on Sundays nowadays. but still that is 2 games once a week in a league that average almost 10 games a night every day.

But thats neither here nor there. The NBAs numbers are down from the Bird/Magic/Jordan days. I just dont see how you can claim image has this much of an influence when you have the NFL getting huge ratings despite the best efforts of guys like Ray Lewis, Jamal Lewis, Rae Carruth and Leonard Little.

We were the biggest draw in the NFL in teh nineties and this was despite Mike Irvin getting busted with strippers and cocaine showing up in court looking like a pimp, Leon Lett routinely getting suspended for dope, and Erik Williams and Larry Allen getting accused of rape. Our merchandise was a number one seller even after the story of the white house came out.

This whole thug image nonsense is fearmongering based on absolutely nothing.

 

[Biggems]

of course ratings will be lower now than 10 or even 20 years ago.

our attention spans have gotten shorter. we have more options for television viewing, including sportswise. we have the internet, highspeed at that. we have excellent video game systems, where people can even compete against each other over the internet.

 

[TellerMorrow34]

Youre right i actually think ABC carries 2 games on Sundays nowadays. but still that is 2 games once a week in a league that average almost 10 games a night every day.

But thats neither here nor there. The NBAs numbers are down from the Bird/Magic/Jordan days. I just dont see how you can claim image has this much of an influence when you have the NFL getting huge ratings despite the best efforts of guys like Ray Lewis, Jamal Lewis, Rae Carruth and Leonard Little.

We were the biggest draw in the NFL in teh nineties and this was despite Mike Irvin getting busted with strippers and cocaine showing up in court looking like a pimp, Leon Lett routinely getting suspended for dope, and Erik Williams and Larry Allen getting accused of rape. Our merchandise was a number one seller even after the story of the white house came out.

This whole thug image nonsense is fearmongering based on absolutely nothing.

That is quite possible. That's why I said I didn't know if the image thing was a factor or not.

 

[joseephuss]

Youre right i actually think ABC carries 2 games on Sundays nowadays. but still that is 2 games once a week in a league that average almost 10 games a night every day.

But thats neither here nor there. The NBAs numbers are down from the Bird/Magic/Jordan days. I just dont see how you can claim image has this much of an influence when you have the NFL getting huge ratings despite the best efforts of guys like Ray Lewis, Jamal Lewis, Rae Carruth and Leonard Little.

We were the biggest draw in the NFL in teh nineties and this was despite Mike Irvin getting busted with strippers and cocaine showing up in court looking like a pimp, Leon Lett routinely getting suspended for dope, and Erik Williams and Larry Allen getting accused of rape. Our merchandise was a number one seller even after the story of the white house came out.

This whole thug image nonsense is fearmongering based on absolutely nothing.

I disagree. The NBA does have an image problem. Maybe that bad image is based on fearmongering, but it does exist. The NFL probably has a larger percentage of guys that break the law or get in trouble, but they somehow protect their image. The NBA does not. This image is based more on perception than reality, but that doesn't really matter. What matters is that it does exists and the NBA has struggled with it.

With all that being said, I don't think the thug image of the NBA is the primary reason as to why their ratings have gone down over the last decade. There are a lot of factors involved, but the thug image does play some part.

Maybe the bigger issue is that the NBA really hasn't been that big to begin with. It took the likes of Magic, Bird and Jordan to make the NBA really popular, but maybe that was the highest it was ever going to be. There is nowhere to go, but down. Down to where it once was. Even in the early days of Magic and Bird, the NBA playoffs were still shown on tape delay in many areas. This isn't a league that has a long sustained history of being the most popular in the U.S.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I disagree. The NBA does have an image problem. Maybe that bad image is based on fearmongering, but it does exist. The NFL probably has a larger percentage of guys that break the law or get in trouble, but they somehow protect their image. The NBA does not. This image is based more on perception than reality, but that doesn't really matter. What matters is that it does exists and the NBA has struggled with it.

With all that being said, I don't think the thug image of the NBA is the primary reason as to why their ratings have gone down over the last decade. There are a lot of factors involved, but the thug image does play some part.

Maybe the bigger issue is that the NBA really hasn't been that big to begin with. It took the likes of Magic, Bird and Jordan to make the NBA really popular, but maybe that was the highest it was ever going to be. There is nowhere to go, but down. Down to where it once was. Even in the early days of Magic and Bird, the NBA playoffs were still shown on tape delay in many areas. This isn't a league that has a long sustained history of being the most popular in the U.S.

The NFL's salary cap is $107 million and comprises 60% of total revenues. that means the league makes about $167 million a year per franchise.

The NBA salary cap is around 60 million and comprises bout 55% of total revenue which makes it about $109 per franchise.

Although the NBA os only 2/3 th4e size of the NFL its cap and thus revenue has been growing as well. Now I really dont feel like doing the work to determine if the growth has grown in respect to the markets or economy or whatever.

There is zero evidence that the NBA could grow more or if its not that its the fault of 'thug image.' And another thing there is also no evidence that the image is even a problem outside of particular 40+ WASP. That is a problem witth them they think that everyone thinks like them.

Thruth is Allen Iverson is the second most popular player in the NBA if thug image was a problem then wouldnt it bear to reason that his gear wouldnt sell well? The opposite is true. The NFL was growing record revenues when Rae Carruth and Ray Lewis were involved in homicides. ray Lewis is considered a fiery leader and great player despite being involved in a homicide of his own.

Fact of the matter is that any press is good press and when i say fearmongering I mean chicken littel rotines not a successful political action.