Got this from Extremeskins...Campbell is Roethlisberger in 2005

[Portland Fanatic]

This is desperate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Title of thread: 2004 Big Ben and Steelers=2005 Campbell and Skins. A Logical Comparison

Comparisons abound between our team this year and the 2004 Steelers with Ben Roethlisberger.

Let's detail this using a logical framework.

Premise 1: When QB Tommy Maddox was lost to injury in Week 1, the 2004 Steelers rallied behind their rookie QB Ben Roethlisberger and ultimately fielded a run-first offense led by Jerome Bettis and Duce Staley predicated on a physical ground game punctuated by occasional downfield passing plays by Big Ben to Hines Ward and Plaxico Burress.

Premise 2: 2004 Steelers featured an outanding, aggressive, attack-oriented Defense that forced turnovers and changed field position.

Premise 3: 2005 Commanders, according to Gregg Williams and others, will feature an oustanding, aggressive, attack-oriented Defense with a renewed emphasis on forcing turnovers and changing field position.

Premise 4: Big Ben's strong arm, athleticism, reputed leadership and poise did little to alter the fact that he was regarded by most NFL scouts as the 2004 1st Round QB who was the least mentally prepared to take over as an NFL starter, considered inferior by most talent evaluators to both Eli Manning and Philip Rivers.

Premise 5: Jason Campbell's strong arm, athleticism, reputed leadership and poise did little to alter the fact that he is regarded by most NFL scouts as the 2005 1st Round QB who is the least mentally prepared to take over as an NFL starter, considered inferior by most NFL talent evaluators to both Alex Smith and Aaron Rodgers.

Premise 6: Bill Cowher and his coaching staff tailored the offense to Big Ben's strengths and proclivities, such as his penchant for rolling right while passing downfield, while at the same time relying heavily on his running backs to take offensive pressure off of his young QB by minimizing his throwing attempts to only 21.1 attempts per game, which ultimately resulted in Ben being ranked 28th out of the 32 starting QB in terms of total passes attempted, only 295 attempts overall, compared to Trent Green's 556.

Premise 7: Cowher's approach to Roethlisberger's development as Quarterback was ultimately successful in that the Steelers went 15-1 and made the playoffs led by a dominant defense, physical running game, and a rookie QB executing an offensive game plan intalled by his coaches that maximized his strengths and minimized the potential for typical rookie mistakes.

Premise 8: Joe Gibbs and his coaching staff are more than capable of tailoring the offense to Jason Campbell's athleticism and strong arm, as it is abundantly clear that Jason Campbell is the best athlete that Joe Gibbs has ever had available at the quarterback position.

Premise 9: If Brunell fails and faulters in Dallas, which is entirely possible, Jason Campbell's ascent to starting must be considered and turning over the reins to Campbell should not be taken off the table.

Conclusion: Therefore, using the 2004 Steelers as precedent, it is entirely realistic to posit that the 2005 Commanders will rally behind rookie QB Jason Campbell and field a run-first offense led by Clinton Portis and Ladell Betts predicated on a physical ground game punctuated by occasional downfield passing plays by Campbell to Santana Moss and David Patten and supported by an oustanding defense.

 

[1fisher]

This is desperate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

==========================================
Title of thread: 2004 Big Ben and Steelers=2005 Campbell and Skins. A Logical Comparison

Comparisons abound between our team this year and the 2004 Steelers with Ben Roethlisberger.

Let's detail this using a logical framework.

Premise 1: When QB Tommy Maddox was lost to injury in Week 1, the 2004 Steelers rallied behind their rookie QB Ben Roethlisberger and ultimately fielded a run-first offense led by Jerome Bettis and Duce Staley predicated on a physical ground game punctuated by occasional downfield passing plays by Big Ben to Hines Ward and Plaxico Burress.

Premise 2: 2004 Steelers featured an outanding, aggressive, attack-oriented Defense that forced turnovers and changed field position.

Premise 3: 2005 Commanders, according to Gregg Williams and others, will feature an oustanding, aggressive, attack-oriented Defense with a renewed emphasis on forcing turnovers and changing field position.

Premise 4: Big Ben's strong arm, athleticism, reputed leadership and poise did little to alter the fact that he was regarded by most NFL scouts as the 2004 1st Round QB who was the least mentally prepared to take over as an NFL starter, considered inferior by most talent evaluators to both Eli Manning and Philip Rivers.

Premise 5: Jason Campbell's strong arm, athleticism, reputed leadership and poise did little to alter the fact that he is regarded by most NFL scouts as the 2005 1st Round QB who is the least mentally prepared to take over as an NFL starter, considered inferior by most NFL talent evaluators to both Alex Smith and Aaron Rodgers.

Premise 6: Bill Cowher and his coaching staff tailored the offense to Big Ben's strengths and proclivities, such as his penchant for rolling right while passing downfield, while at the same time relying heavily on his running backs to take offensive pressure off of his young QB by minimizing his throwing attempts to only 21.1 attempts per game, which ultimately resulted in Ben being ranked 28th out of the 32 starting QB in terms of total passes attempted, only 295 attempts overall, compared to Trent Green's 556.

Premise 7: Cowher's approach to Roethlisberger's development as Quarterback was ultimately successful in that the Steelers went 15-1 and made the playoffs led by a dominant defense, physical running game, and a rookie QB executing an offensive game plan intalled by his coaches that maximized his strengths and minimized the potential for typical rookie mistakes.

Premise 8: Joe Gibbs and his coaching staff are more than capable of tailoring the offense to Jason Campbell's athleticism and strong arm, as it is abundantly clear that Jason Campbell is the best athlete that Joe Gibbs has ever had available at the quarterback position.

Premise 9: If Brunell fails and faulters in Dallas, which is entirely possible, Jason Campbell's ascent to starting must be considered and turning over the reins to Campbell should not be taken off the table.

Conclusion: Therefore, using the 2004 Steelers as precedent, it is entirely realistic to posit that the 2005 Commanders will rally behind rookie QB Jason Campbell and field a run-first offense led by Clinton Portis and Ladell Betts predicated on a physical ground game punctuated by occasional downfield passing plays by Campbell to Santana Moss and David Patten and supported by an oustanding defense.

Didn't the skins win the superbowl last year......

 

[Duane]

Almost as bad as the "Joe Gibbs is in many ways our best friend" comment.

 

[Cowboy Junkie]

One problem with all that.
Pitt had much more talent at the Wideout position.
Not to mention their OLs Do not compare.
On top of that Cower has been HC in Pitt for years and has not any bad apples .
Commanders if not loaded on the OL and WR are most certantly loaded with guys Cohwer would not want.

 

[Danny White]

Hey, if you don't have hope, what do you have?

Ya gotta give them something to believe in.

 

[dmq]

I was over at that site earlier. They are drinking some serious kool-aid. You would think they had the greatest defense that ever played after shutting down the monsterous Bears offense. They also are trying to compare what Mark Brunell did to us last year and making a case that he will do it again. Funny thing is, they think they are playing last years squad. I think we have a suprise for them. I also heard a guy joking about Patrick Crayton and that he sucks. I think they are gonna be in for a rude awakening.
Was this posted by Joe Theisman?

 

[Hiero]

pretty desperate... and hilarious.

 

[DBoys]

Anyone else smell the BS :gassy3:

 

[LaTunaNostra]

Conclusion: Therefore, using the 2004 Steelers as precedent, it is entirely realistic to posit that the 2005 Commanders will rally behind rookie QB Jason Campbell and field a run-first offense led by Clinton Portis and Ladell Betts predicated on a physical ground game punctuated by occasional downfield passing plays by Campbell to Santana Moss and David Patten and supported by an oustanding defense.

Wow, what an amazing conclusion - that a team can be successful with a physical ground game, a few speed receviers to stretch the field, and a class-A D.

A more detailed comparison between Rothelisbeger and Campbell might be more enlightening tho, or perhaps some analysis of how much Campbell would be able to drive the bus, as compared to carry it. Meaning, is the Skins team this year anywhere near as solid as the Steelers were last?

That physical ground in Pitts featured a true power runner in Bettis, not one for whom zone blocking had to be implemented and who still is no between tackle phenom.

I think of the rosters and see Hines Ward and Plaxico Burress last year, and know what they brought in terms of toughness and blocking ability, in addition to reception and possession skills. I don't see the same value with Patten and Moss.

Is Washington going to excel at TOP and ball control and therefore make life as easy for Campbell as Cowher was able to do for Roth?

I really don't think a D that lives or dies by the blitz has that strong a comparison to the Pitts 3-4 D either.

There are probably much sharper comparions of rook QB led teams to make over the years..I just don't see these two teams as very comparable. And again, it all comes down to how good Campbell is.

If we hear Bill comparing him to Dan Marino in a pc, as he did Roth last year, then perhaps there is some logic to this generalist homer 'logic' after all.

 

[k19]

riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight


And QC was the next Vick, Hutch was the next Troy, and on and on and on. Someone needs a hug

Step away from the pipe and take off the Crimson and Gold colored glasses. The phones ringing, its the real world and they say its time to come back

 

[HardHittin'Witten]

doesn't Campbell have to play in order to be considered the Roethlisberger of this season?

 

[Yakuza Rich]

A bunch of things they are missing:

1. Steelers O-Line > Commanders O-Line
2. Burress, Randle El, and Ward > Moss and Patten (Steelers WR's are far better run blockers as well)
3. Steelers Ability to sack opposing QB > Skins ability to sack opposing QB
4. QB’s in ’04 > QB’s in ’05 draft
5. History shows that Roethlisberger’s rookie year was a once in a lifetime season.
6. Steelers were a perennial playoff team before Roethlisberger (except for the ’03 season where they had a ton of injuries). The Skins have been a perennial loser for years.

And while Joe Gibbs is an HOF coach, what has he done that was so great in his comeback?

Not much.


How has he handled the QB’s so far?

He gave Brunnell an $8 million signing bonus (Bledsoe got about a 1/3rd of that and is 1 year younger, also was a Pro Bowler in ’02). He also gave up a 3rd rounder for him to boot.

He then allowed for Brunnell to start for half of the season despite him playing awful. He then names Patrick Ramsey starter for ’05 and gives him all of three drives to prove himself.

That’s not to say the Campbell won’t be a good QB someday (although history shows that QB’s that start right away typically wind up having subpar careers), but it’s not realistic to say he’ll play at Roethlisberger levels if he starts this season.

In fact, if I’m a Skins fan, I’d probably hope that Campbell sits the bench for most of the year. Then they can get a pass rushing DE next year (if they have any cap room) and start Campbell in ’06, where he’s more likely to play like Carson Palmer.

Rich…………

 

[Skins26]

I was over at that site earlier. They are drinking some serious kool-aid. You would think they had the greatest defense that ever played after shutting down the monsterous Bears offense.

No, they we see that the intensity and stellar play that made the Skins defense #3 last year has carried over into this season.

They also are trying to compare what Mark Brunell did to us last year and making a case that he will do it again.

Who is?
The chances of him doing that again are very slim. If by chance he does do it again however, we'd win for sure.

Funny thing is, they think they are playing last years squad. I think we have a suprise for them.

...and vice versa...

I also heard a guy joking about Patrick Crayton and that he sucks. I think they are gonna be in for a rude awakening.

Could you link that. I want to see who said that. Are you sure he wasn't being sarcastic?

 

[wileedog]

Could you link that. I want to see who said that. Are you sure he wasn't being sarcastic?

ttp://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114298

Oh and just for the record, nobodyz really afraid of Patrick Crayton.

 

[AdamJT13]

Comparing Campbell to Roethlisberger is a stretch -- but it's less of a stretch than comparing Tony Romo to Brett Favre and/or Steve Young.

Give the Skins fans credit for one thing, though. Last I checked, they overwhelmingly believe that Dallas will win Monday night.

 

[Established1971]

So because both Campbell and Roeth.. were the 3rd qb's drafted that means they are even? The qb class of 04 is generally regarded as excellent. People were raving about Roeth... and had him going no lower than 22 or so and he ended up going much higher. People are very high on Manning and Rivers. 05 was generally considered a poor qb class. Smith only went 1 because Leinart shocked the world. Rodgers plummeted to the bottom of round 1. Campbell was considered a reach when he was picked and it shocked alot of people. Gimme a break with this baloney.

 

[Roughneck]

Give the Skins fans credit for one thing, though. Last I checked, they overwhelmingly believe that Dallas will win Monday night.

Um, when was the last time you checked that Adam? Take a trip over to Extreme and I'll guarantee that you will find at least 70% of them picking the Skins to be victorious on Monday.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Would you trade Moss for Crayton?

I personally think our 3rd and 4th receivers are better than there starting two.

One thing is clear and that is that we are not the Bears and Parcells owns Gibbs historically.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

Comparing Campbell to Roethlisberger is a stretch -- but it's less of a stretch than comparing Tony Romo to Brett Favre and/or Steve Young.

Give the Skins fans credit for one thing, though. Last I checked, they overwhelmingly believe that Dallas will win Monday night.

Most of them are starting to turn around and say that they will win because they honestly believe that Williams is the best defensive mind in football and Gibbs knows what he's doing.

I really don't have a problem with it, but when they don't want to give Dallas credit for beating San Diego and they start comparing Campbell to Roethlisberger, I've gotta speak up.

Rich...........

 

[playit12]

Premise 1: When QB Tommy Maddox was lost to injury in Week 1, the 2004 Steelers rallied behind their rookie QB Ben Roethlisberger and ultimately fielded a run-first offense led by Jerome Bettis and Duce Staley predicated on a physical ground game punctuated by occasional downfield passing plays by Big Ben to Hines Ward and Plaxico Burress.

When Ben had to pass he was effiecient and composed. He was excellent at avoiding the rush and very hard to bring down. As for his "driving the bus" he had a DVOA that placed him 3rd in the league.

Premise 2: 2004 Steelers featured an outanding, aggressive, attack-oriented Defense that forced turnovers and changed field position.

Premise 3: 2005 Commanders, according to Gregg Williams and others, will feature an oustanding, aggressive, attack-oriented Defense with a renewed emphasis on forcing turnovers and changing field position.

Well they certainly couldn't force turnovers last year. But either way it won't matter what the D can do. If you can't force teams to pass, you can't force turnovers. Last year teams ran poorly against the Skins (Low ypc) but still had more run attempts - significantly more than the league average - because they didn't have to throw. Why take the risk. Just run and waste time. Not many teams are going to get beat by 3 field goals.

Premise 4: Big Ben's strong arm, athleticism, reputed leadership and poise did little to alter the fact that he was regarded by most NFL scouts as the 2004 1st Round QB who was the least mentally prepared to take over as an NFL starter, considered inferior by most talent evaluators to both Eli Manning and Philip Rivers.

Premise 5: Jason Campbell's strong arm, athleticism, reputed leadership and poise did little to alter the fact that he is regarded by most NFL scouts as the 2005 1st Round QB who is the least mentally prepared to take over as an NFL starter, considered inferior by most NFL talent evaluators to both Alex Smith and Aaron Rodgers.

What exactly does that prove? I mean that the scouts were completely wrong on Big Ben, who they though was not ready to start, but here they think that Campbell is ready? The same scouts? They did such a good job on the first guess...

Premise 6: Bill Cowher and his coaching staff tailored the offense to Big Ben's strengths and proclivities, such as his penchant for rolling right while passing downfield, while at the same time relying heavily on his running backs to take offensive pressure off of his young QB by minimizing his throwing attempts to only 21.1 attempts per game, which ultimately resulted in Ben being ranked 28th out of the 32 starting QB in terms of total passes attempted, only 295 attempts overall, compared to Trent Green's 556

Total pass attempts? Are you kiding me? Is that really the stat you are going to go with? Lets see... from this week the top 5 in pass attempts were:

Bulger, Plummer, Warner, McNabb, and Farve

You see the trend? They all lost. They averaged over 2 turnovers each.

By the way the least pass attempts was by Rattay... who won. Of course Rattay did complete 68.8% of his passes for an NFL leading 10.3 yards per attempt and threw 2 TD with no picks... But he didn't have more than 21.1 attempts... so apparently he wasn't too instramental. Maybe they really won because of the running game... Barlow after all did rush 14 times for 22 yards...

Teams don't win because they threw a lot. They win because their QB can make clutch throws and is an efficient passer when he needs to be. Big Ben was last year during the regular season.

Premise 7: Cowher's approach to Roethlisberger's development as Quarterback was ultimately successful in that the Steelers went 15-1 and made the playoffs led by a dominant defense, physical running game, and a rookie QB executing an offensive game plan intalled by his coaches that maximized his strengths and minimized the potential for typical rookie mistakes.

Or maybe Big Ben just played well. He did after all have the 5th best QB rating last year, 3rd best DVOA, and the 2nd best Y/A of all starting QBs last year.

Premise 8: Joe Gibbs and his coaching staff are more than capable of tailoring the offense to Jason Campbell's athleticism and strong arm, as it is abundantly clear that Jason Campbell is the best athlete that Joe Gibbs has ever had available at the quarterback position.

Two things here... This is the same staff that has done nothing to tailor to the strengths of Brunell or Ramsey... what makes you so sure they can for Jason? Brunell was in 7 step drops all year and throwing deep balls, something he sucks at. While Ramsey was doing 5 step drops and threw the second most short passes per game, while his strengths are the middle routes. They refuse to implement a play action offense with Patrick to give him more time to throw, while they keep Mark in the pocket where he has never been an efficient passer. All they have proven so far is that they are good at tailoring the worst offense they can with the QB in charge.

Second... Since when does being athletic and having a strong arm mean you are ready to be an NFL QB? And why is it that the best thing that can ever be said for a black NFL QB is that he is an amazing athlete. When was the last time we talked about a white QB being a good athlete as his primary skill? Remind me again when the last time a great "athlete" with a strong arm won the superbowl? Brady? Dilfer? Johnson? How about Warner?

And I hear that Kyle Boiler can scramble pretty good... plus he proved he can throw between the goal post from the 50 yard line on his knees. Imagine what an NFL team could do with him.

Premise 9: If Brunell fails and faulters in Dallas, which is entirely possible, Jason Campbell's ascent to starting must be considered and turning over the reins to Campbell should not be taken off the table.

Hey I'm all for starting him before the game.

Conclusion: Therefore, using the 2004 Steelers as precedent, it is entirely realistic to posit that the 2005 Commanders will rally behind rookie QB Jason Campbell and field a run-first offense led by Clinton Portis and Ladell Betts predicated on a physical ground game punctuated by occasional downfield passing plays by Campbell to Santana Moss and David Patten and supported by an oustanding defense.

They didn't even run a run first offense last year when their passing game was worst in the league last year... but as soon as we get a better QB we will? Physical ground game behind Portis? And Campbell played in a west coast offense the only year he was good in College... since when did he become a down field passer?

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