Hardy Investigation Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.

JoeKing

Diehard
Messages
35,516
Reaction score
31,003
I'm sure there are opposing fans that come here and say they can't believe how everyone has given Hardy a pass for his transgressions, but here we are.

A pass? Hardy was indicted, convicted, appealed, exonerated. He was fully vetted by the legal system... that's not being given a pass. In a country with principles, folks get a second chance... especially when the law says you did nothing wrong on your first chance. So now this man has a right to work in his chosen profession. Why do some in that profession shun him? Because they have and agenda. Public perception of Hardy differs from the reality of Hardy and so those with the agenda substitute reality with the perception and label Hardy a woman beater despite the law saying otherwise. Those that bow to an agenda lost out on Hardy. The Cowboys were smart enough to given Hardy the second chance he deserves rather than bowing to the agenda.
 

tyke1doe

Well-Known Member
Messages
53,658
Reaction score
32,037
A pass? Hardy was indicted, convicted, appealed, exonerated. He was fully vetted by the legal system... that's not being given a pass. In a country with principles, folks get a second chance... especially when the law says you did nothing wrong on your first chance. So now this man has a right to work in his chosen profession. Why do some in that profession shun him? Because they have and agenda. Public perception of Hardy differs from the reality of Hardy and so those with the agenda substitute reality with the perception and label Hardy a woman beater despite the law saying otherwise. Those that bow to an agenda lost out on Hardy. The Cowboys were smart enough to given Hardy the second chance he deserves rather than bowing to the agenda.

The law didn't say he wasn't a woman beater. The law said the first time he was guilty. The law said the second time there's not enough evidence to bring him to trial, particularly because the key witness was paid in a settlement and couldn't be found to participate in the second trial.

And if the agenda is to call attention to professional football players beating women then it's a good agenda.

The previous agenda was for the league to turn its collective head and say, like so many on this forum say, "Beating? What beating?"
 

tyke1doe

Well-Known Member
Messages
53,658
Reaction score
32,037
What I find interesting in the Brady case, is that league considered Spygate in rendering its decision in Deflategate.

Yet, I've read in this forum many Cowboys fans talk about the law and how the law/legal standards should govern what the league does with respect to Hardy.

Well, if that was the case, then Brady shouldn't have been suspended and the Patriots shouldn't have gotten fined or a draft pick taken away - a penalty which was based in large part based on the Patriots' history of cheating.

In a legal case (I'm working from memory so resident lawyers please check me), prior arrests or convictions aren't admissible in a case involving a particular charge. So if the league had applied a legal standard - like so many Cowboys fans argued should be done for Hardy - then the Patriots' past conduct should not have factored into their current punishment.

Yet, I don't hear too many fans on this forum complaining that the league shouldn't have taken into account the Patriots' past transgressions.

Funny how that works. :)
 

JoeKing

Diehard
Messages
35,516
Reaction score
31,003
The law didn't say he wasn't a woman beater. The law said the first time he was guilty. The law said the second time there's not enough evidence to bring him to trial, particularly because the key witness was paid in a settlement and couldn't be found to participate in the second trial.

And if the agenda is to call attention to professional football players beating women then it's a good agenda.

The previous agenda was for the league to turn its collective head and say, like so many on this forum say, "Beating? What beating?"


Because the NFL is such a better institution to determine wrong doing than the legal system, I see your point. :rolleyes:

If it can be proved a player beat a woman then call attention to it but that's not what happened here.
 

tyke1doe

Well-Known Member
Messages
53,658
Reaction score
32,037
Because the NFL is such a better institution to determine wrong doing than the legal system, I see your point. :rolleyes:

Who said anything about better? All institutions that care about their image and the conduct of their members should be interested in ethics and morality.
And, yes, if you're in the NFL, there are codes of conduct you must follow.

If it can be proved a player beat a woman then call attention to it but that's not what happened here.

But the NFL is judging him on situations surrounding Hardy's case. And there IS enough evidence to suggest he put his hands on his ex-girlfriend, including the 911 call from a neighbor who describes hearing a man beating a woman.

But your response is what the thread is all about. You see agenda because you're a Cowboys fan and Hardy now plays for the Cowboys. Others, being a bit more objective, can understand the league's suspension of Hardy based on his conduct - even though I disagree with the length of the suspension.
 

tyke1doe

Well-Known Member
Messages
53,658
Reaction score
32,037
I'm a homer because this is sports and identifying with your team is well,it.
There is very little that I moralize about in sports [like smoking pot]

I know I can't defend this position ethically and dont intend to.

And this is an honest response. I can understand a fan saying, "Look, I know what Hardy did or was accused of doing, but I still want him on the team because he can sack the quarterback better than anyone who is currently a Cowboy."

But this bending over backwards to justify what he did and his poor judgment makes people look ridiculous when they wouldn't care less about making a defense for him if he had signed with the Giants or the Eagles or the Skins.
 

BAZ

Drunken Mick
Messages
4,861
Reaction score
2,767
A pass? Hardy was indicted, convicted, appealed, exonerated. He was fully vetted by the legal system... that's not being given a pass. In a country with principles, folks get a second chance... especially when the law says you did nothing wrong on your first chance. So now this man has a right to work in his chosen profession. Why do some in that profession shun him? Because they have and agenda. Public perception of Hardy differs from the reality of Hardy and so those with the agenda substitute reality with the perception and label Hardy a woman beater despite the law saying otherwise. Those that bow to an agenda lost out on Hardy. The Cowboys were smart enough to given Hardy the second chance he deserves rather than bowing to the agenda.

How many times a day do you get called an odd fish?
 

burmafrd

Well-Known Member
Messages
43,820
Reaction score
3,379
The law didn't say he wasn't a woman beater. The law said the first time he was guilty. The law said the second time there's not enough evidence to bring him to trial, particularly because the key witness was paid in a settlement and couldn't be found to participate in the second trial.

And if the agenda is to call attention to professional football players beating women then it's a good agenda.

The previous agenda was for the league to turn its collective head and say, like so many on this forum say, "Beating? What beating?"

one well known biased JUDGE said he was guilty. In what anyone else would call a preliminary hearing.
 

tyke1doe

Well-Known Member
Messages
53,658
Reaction score
32,037
one well known biased JUDGE said he was guilty. In what anyone else would call a preliminary hearing.

First, how do you know she was biased? Her legal and judicial credentials speak otherwise. Furthermore, if she has a history of being biased, she would likely have many complaints against her. Have you checked her record?
This is just something you and others like to toss out because you don't like the fact she ruled against him.

Please offer me some evidence to support she is biased.

And, the trial was NOT a preliminary hearing. What are you talking about other than venting your frustration?
 

waving monkey

Well-Known Member
Messages
15,540
Reaction score
14,930
mrtxstar said:
A pass? Hardy was indicted, convicted, appealed, exonerated. He was fully vetted by the legal system... that's not being given a pass. In a country with principles, folks get a second chance... especially when the law says you did nothing wrong on your first chance. So now this man has a right to work in his chosen profession. Why do some in that profession shun him? Because they have and agenda. Public perception of Hardy differs from the reality of Hardy and so those with the agenda substitute reality with the perception and label Hardy a woman beater despite the law saying otherwise. Those that bow to an agenda lost out on Hardy. The Cowboys were smart enough to given Hardy the second chance he deserves rather than bowing to the agenda..

Here is a fans justice I salute
 

pancakeman

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,023
Reaction score
2,738
What I find interesting in the Brady case, is that league considered Spygate in rendering its decision in Deflategate.

Yet, I've read in this forum many Cowboys fans talk about the law and how the law/legal standards should govern what the league does with respect to Hardy.

Well, if that was the case, then Brady shouldn't have been suspended and the Patriots shouldn't have gotten fined or a draft pick taken away - a penalty which was based in large part based on the Patriots' history of cheating.

In a legal case (I'm working from memory so resident lawyers please check me), prior arrests or convictions aren't admissible in a case involving a particular charge. So if the league had applied a legal standard - like so many Cowboys fans argued should be done for Hardy - then the Patriots' past conduct should not have factored into their current punishment.

Yet, I don't hear too many fans on this forum complaining that the league shouldn't have taken into account the Patriots' past transgressions.

Funny how that works. :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-strikes_law
 

tyke1doe

Well-Known Member
Messages
53,658
Reaction score
32,037

The three strikes law doesn't apply to the situation I'm talking about. The three strike law applies to actual convictions. I'm talking about information about prior criminal cases being introduced in an active, ongoing criminal case.

From my understanding, a defendant has a right to a fair trial, which prohibits the state from bringing up prior criminal cases that could prejudice the jury against the defendant.
 

speedkilz88

Well-Known Member
Messages
36,046
Reaction score
21,906
First, how do you know she was biased? Her legal and judicial credentials speak otherwise. Furthermore, if she has a history of being biased, she would likely have many complaints against her. Have you checked her record?
This is just something you and others like to toss out because you don't like the fact she ruled against him.

Please offer me some evidence to support she is biased.

And, the trial was NOT a preliminary hearing. What are you talking about other than venting your frustration?

Because everyone has a right to a trial by jury with presumption of innocence. So it was in fact a preliminary hearing. If it wasn't for being a misdemeanor accusation it would never be allowed to done that way.
 

tyke1doe

Well-Known Member
Messages
53,658
Reaction score
32,037
Because everyone has a right to a trial by jury with presumption of innocence. So it was in fact a preliminary hearing. If it wasn't for being a misdemeanor accusation it would never be allowed to done that way.

No, it was not a preliminary hearing. There are several key differences between a preliminary hearing and a trial by judge, including a lower burden of proof and the goal or outcome of both.

The only commonality is that a judge is hearing the case, and not a jury. But it would be inaccurate, legally, to call this trial a preliminary hearing.
 

JoeKing

Diehard
Messages
35,516
Reaction score
31,003
Who said anything about better? All institutions that care about their image and the conduct of their members should be interested in ethics and morality. And, yes, if you're in the NFL, there are codes of conduct you must follow..

Oh so you admit the NFL is less suited to determining wrong doing and yet accept them doing so. You say buzz words like image, conduct, ethics, morality but that's not what you are really concerned with. You are concerned with the perception of those things because if you were really are concerned with those actual things you'd see the player did nothing wrong. The legal system vetted him.

But the NFL is judging him on situations surrounding Hardy's case. And there IS enough evidence to suggest he put his hands on his ex-girlfriend, including the 911 call from a neighbor who describes hearing a man beating a woman.

What the neighbors heard, lol. Exactly what does a man beating a woman sound like? I image it sounds just like a woman beating herself up to frame the man for beating her. It sounds exactly like that. There is enough evidence to suggest something happen but not what, so any conclusion is speculation. But the NFL knows better, oh wait you already said they don't know better.

But your response is what the thread is all about. You see agenda because you're a Cowboys fan and Hardy now plays for the Cowboys. Others, being a bit more objective, can understand the league's suspension of Hardy based on his conduct - even though I disagree with the length of the suspension.

Now you presume to tell me what I think? You have control and function of my mind? This is what is legally call hearsay. It's inadmissible in a court of law but this isn't a court of law so let's entertain it... No, you don't know my thoughts before I make them known. I believed in Hardy's right to a fair trial when he was a Panther. I believe everyone has this right, Cowboy or not. I also believe the NFL has no right to override a finding by the legal system. No foul, No penalty.
 

Eric_Boyer

Well-Known Member
Messages
5,789
Reaction score
1,573
First, how do you know she was biased? Her legal and judicial credentials speak otherwise. Furthermore, if she has a history of being biased, she would likely have many complaints against her. Have you checked her record?
This is just something you and others like to toss out because you don't like the fact she ruled against him.

Please offer me some evidence to support she is biased.

And, the trial was NOT a preliminary hearing. What are you talking about other than venting your frustration?

it sort of is.

It plays a function very much like a grand jury.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/09/15/transcript-doesnt-exist-for-hardys-first-trial-yet/
 

tyke1doe

Well-Known Member
Messages
53,658
Reaction score
32,037
Oh so you admit the NFL is less suited to determining wrong doing and yet accept them doing so. You say buzz words like image, conduct, ethics, morality but that's not what you are really concerned with. You are concerned with the perception of those things because if you were really are concerned with those actual things you'd see the player did nothing wrong. The legal system vetted him.

Huh? :huh:

First, it's not about what I think because I'm not punishing anyone. It's about what the NFL thinks.

Second, just because something isn't illegal doesn't mean it is any less immoral. You're conflating concepts.

Third, if image, ethics, conduct, etc., weren't important concepts, they wouldn't be in the dictionary and have their own separate, distinction definitions. But they are concepts, which means they have application.

Fourth, obviously, the league is concerned about image, conduct, ethics, etc. And that's because the league is trying to sell its product to a broader audience, one that includes WOMEN!!! So, of course, the league would be concerned about those issues that are of concern to a market it seeks to capture.

What the neighbors heard, lol. Exactly what does a man beating a woman sound like? I image it sounds just like a woman beating herself up to frame the man for beating her. It sounds exactly like that. There is enough evidence to suggest something happen but not what, so any conclusion is speculation. But the NFL knows better, oh wait you already said they don't know better.

What does a man sound like beating a woman? You're not serious are you?
I had a neighbor who beat his girlfriend. I could hear it through the walls. Let me tell you, it's pretty clear that the woman screaming and crying and gasping for a breath as she's getting bashed doesn't sound like a man getting beat by a woman or a woman faking a beating. When people are getting beaten, there is a distinct, unique sound to it, especially when you hear the pounding of a man's fist that strikes with such velocity that at the precise moment it connects the woman also gasps and loses her breath.

You ought to be a shamed of yourself. You're so absorbed in your justification that you make light of matters you don't understand.

Now you presume to tell me what I think? You have control and function of my mind? This is what is legally call hearsay. It's inadmissible in a court of law but this isn't a court of law so let's entertain it...

You really don't know what you're talking about. Hearsay is about rumors, unsubstantiated claims based on a particular incident. What I said to you is not hearsay. It is an opinion based on the facts I gathered from your comments. Opinion is not hearsay.

Second, you admit that this isn't a court of law, so why would hearsay be an issue? You sound like someone who picks legal terms, but you really don't understand how they're used. You're just trying to match words, yet you're overmatched.

No, you don't know my thoughts before I make them known. I believed in Hardy's right to a fair trial when he was a Panther. I believe everyone has this right, Cowboy or not. I also believe the NFL has no right to override a finding by the legal system. No foul, No penalty.

That's your belief. But that's not how the real world works.
There are many people, who after being exonerated in court, have lost their jobs.
Furthermore, there are some issues that don't rise to the level of the courts and yet people can still get punished by their employer or lose their jobs.
And what I'm telling you is that THIS is perfectly legal.
You can tell Obama's wife on national television, "I think you're a witch" and the president can't do anything to you legally or have you thrown in jail.
But if your employer sees it, and he believes your actions have brought ill-repute on the company and cause clients not to do business with you, he can fire you.

Again, this is how the real world works. And the NFL is in the real world business, fantasy football notwithstanding. :)
 
Last edited:

tyke1doe

Well-Known Member
Messages
53,658
Reaction score
32,037
it sort of is.

It plays a function very much like a grand jury.

You said "of sorts."

It's not the same. They are two separate legal proceedings, even if they have a similar element, i.e., a judge making a decision.

No, a preliminary hearing and a trial by judge ARE NOT the same thing. There is no appeal from a preliminary hearing. There is an appeal in a trial by judge or a trial by jury.
 

Eric_Boyer

Well-Known Member
Messages
5,789
Reaction score
1,573
You said "of sorts."

It's not the same. They are two separate legal proceedings, even if they have a similar element, i.e., a judge making a decision.

No, a preliminary hearing and a trial by judge ARE NOT the same thing. There is no appeal from a preliminary hearing. There is an appeal in a trial by judge or a trial by jury.

from my link:

Hardy hasn’t been convicted. He has been found guilty via a preliminary process that essentially serves as a filter for deciding the cases that are decided by a jury.
 

tyke1doe

Well-Known Member
Messages
53,658
Reaction score
32,037
from my link:

Hardy hasn’t been convicted. He has been found guilty via a preliminary process that essentially serves as a filter for deciding the cases that are decided by a jury.

And from my link:

Preliminary hearings differ from trials in many important respects:
  • Preliminary hearings are much shorter than trials. A typical prelim may take from a half hour to two hours, and some prelims only last a few minutes.
  • Preliminary hearings are conducted in front of a judge alone, without a jury. Trials can also be conducted by judges alone, when the defendant waives the right to a jury, but prelims never involve a jury.
  • The burden of proof, while still on the prosecution, is much lower during a preliminary hearing than it is during trial. At trial, the prosecution has the burden of proving each element of the charged offense(s) beyond a reasonable doubt. But at the prelim, the prosecution only has to show probable cause that the accused committed the charged crime(s). In other words, enough evidence to justify a belief that a crime occurred and the defendant committed it.
  • The goals differ. The goal of trial is to determine a defendant’s guilt. The goal of a preliminary hearing is to screen cases -- to weed out weak cases and protect defendants from unfounded prosecutions. Unofficially, however, each side uses the preliminary hearing to check out the other side’s evidence. As a matter of course, both the defense and prosecution tend not to put on so much evidence that they show their whole hand. And, because the defense doesn’t have to, it often doesn’t put on any evidence at all.
Please stop calling the trial by judge a preliminary hearing. They are two very separate and distinct legal proceedings with the predominant common element being that only a judge is presiding in either case.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top