Has anything changed?

[tyke1doe]

Sometimes you wonder whether guys have played football.

The period before the season begins is when you try to determine what you have. That's when you get player into shape, when you work on drills, ball security, technique, etc.

When you enter the season, it is EXTREMELY difficult to change the course of a season that began wrongt. There just isn't much time, especially if you're studying your opponent, watching game film, evaluating your own players, devising a scheme, implementing that scheme, going over assignments for the upcoming opponent.

Garrett can't change the entire course of the Cowboys in midseason. He has made some changes, and those changes have paid off. This team does not QUIT any more. It is, at the very least, in the game until the fourth quarter.

Do we need to compare the Jaguars and Packers game with any of the games the Cowboys played under Garrett?

Give Garrett a full season, and I think you see more significant changes, provided he gets to do things his way. And this is from a Garrett hater, at least as offensive coordinator.

I think the evidence speaks for itself.

 

[Kangaroo]

Forgot about that - very important.

These type of comments shows me you have no true under standing of how to instill discipline or teach people discipline in a group type of setting.

So yea keep cracking the jokes with other people just show how off base you really are about this subject.

 

[RoyTheHammer]

Garrett can't change the entire course of the Cowboys in midseason. He has made some changes, and those changes have paid off. This team does not QUIT any more. It is, at the very least, in the game until the fourth quarter.

What changes has he made that you have seen pay off for us? I think some of his changes have, some seemingly havent.

Also, you make it sound here like we were getting blown out all year. Most of the games under Wade this year we were at least "in the game". We just kept finding embarassing and crazy ways to lose. Seems kind of like what we've done under Garrett too, no?

 

[tyke1doe]

I'd like to know where all this "increased discipline" I keep reading about is. Many posters have cited it, but where is the evidence on the field? Seven fumbles -- seven! -- in one game... Easy drops by WRs leading to interceptions... Crushing fumbles to lose the game in crunch time... Multiple false starts in short yardage situations... Stupid celebration penalties after touchdowns... Players not seeing any consequences for terrible mistakes... General failure to put away some of the worst teams in this league... All of it has been on display the last month.

1-7 and being out of the game by the fourth quarter before JG as head coach.
4-3 and being in all of the games in the fourth quarter with JG as head coach.

And we've been doing this with a second-string quarterback.

What more do you need? A game is the accumulation of plays, penalties and mistakes and successful plays. If you're extremely undisciplined, you're out of the game by the fourth quarter, which is where the Cowboys found themselves often under Wade Phillips.

The Cowboys have been in every game under Garrett. Yes, the Cowboys still make mistakes. But it's difficult to cleanse yourself of all the mistakes when you haven't been running the show from the beginning. Some of these players still have that "Wade Phillips" mentality. Now, one concern could be how much power will Garrett have to totally rid himself of those players who just don't get it but who Jerry doesn't want to let go because of the money strings.

But if anyone can't see we're a much better team than we were under Phillips, well, they're just not looking. At the end of the day, you have to look at both the record and whether your team had a legitimate chance to win in the end.

Under Wade, we hardly put up a fight. Under Garrett, at least we're fighting and winning our share given the adversity we've had to overcome.

 

[RoyTheHammer]

1-7 and being out of the game by the fourth quarter before JG as head coach.
4-3 and being in all of the games in the fourth quarter with JG as head coach.

Under Wade, we hardly put up a fight. Under Garrett, at least we're fighting and winning our share given the adversity we've had to overcome.

Until the last two blowouts before Wade was fired, the previous 8 weeks all of our losses came by 7 points or less.. in other words one score. We were definately "in the games".

It was really only those last two games that we didn't put up a fight.

Honestly, this is the Dallas Cowboys. The Bills put up a fight in their games this year, but they still are a terrible football team. I expect more than just putting up a fight. I expect wins. I don't expect to still be finding ugly and embarassing ways to lose football games under Garrett, as we did against the Saints, Eagles, Cardinals.

Its the same thing we were doing under Wade.

 

[Dhragon]

These type of comments shows me you have no true under standing of how to instill discipline or teach people discipline in a group type of setting.

So yea keep cracking the jokes with other people just show how off base you really are about this subject.

I've argued plenty against Red using multiple sound arguments. If I decide to joke every once in awhile, you'll have to excuse me, lol.

 

[tyke1doe]

What changes has he made that you have seen pay off for us? I think some of his changes have, some seemingly havent.

I think it's hard for anyone to outline the changes because we're not in the locker room. We don't know what he's calling, what changes he's made to the offensive scheme, etc. I don't follow it that closely.

But what I've seen is where we're down by double digits to New Orleans, we're coming back and we actually take the lead and have the chance to ice the game.

I see being down by double digits with a second and third string quarterback we're coming back and taking the lead.

I see that we're fighting to the end. We lose to one of the best teams in the NFC (the Eagles) by three with a second-string quarterback and with our top receiver (yes, I think Dez is our top receiver) out.

Then I compare that to the 45-7 debacle in Green Bay and the 35-17 game where the Jags say we just quit and say we've made tremendous strides.

Also, you make it sound here like we were getting blown out all year. Most of the games under Wade this year we were at least "in the game". We just kept finding embarassing and crazy ways to lose. Seems kind of like what we've done under Garrett too, no?

With the exception of the Houston game, none of those games did we retake the lead deep into the game. Correct me if I'm wrong, but we rolled over once a team punched us in the mouth.

This team is far and away a better team than it was under Wade. I'm really baffled that anyone can think otherwise.

 

[TellerMorrow34]

If you can look at how this team played during that 1-7 start and honestly say that you don't see anything that has changed, or the improvement in many areas, over these last 7 games then you're blind or completely football ignorant.

I'll let you decide which one you are.

 

[tyke1doe]

Until the last two blowouts before Wade was fired, the previous 8 weeks all of our losses came by 7 points or less.. in other words one score. We were definately "in the games".

It was really only those last two games that we didn't put up a fight.

Honestly, this is the Dallas Cowboys. The Bills put up a fight in their games this year, but they still are a terrible football team. I expect more than just putting up a fight. I expect wins. I don't expect to still be finding ugly and embarassing ways to lose football games under Garrett, as we did against the Saints, Eagles, Cardinals.

Its the same thing we were doing under Wade.

Until the last two blowouts ...

That was a powerful observation.

So we're not getting blown out and we're in games?

I'd say that's different than what we did under Wade. We had an opportunity to get blown out by the Cardinals and the Saints and the Eagles and we did not.

I think that speaks to the difference.

 

[RoyTheHammer]

If you can look at how this team played during that 1-7 start and honestly say that you don't see anything that has changed, or the improvement in many areas, over these last 7 games then you're blind or completely football ignorant.

I'll let you decide which one you are.

Its a bottom line business.. and we're still getting largely the results we got when Wade was here.

Finding ugly and embarassing ways to lose football games.

Take away the two games where this entire team quit, and look at the first 6 games we played under Wade, and the last 7 we've played under Garrett, and tell me what the big changes are?

 

[RoyTheHammer]

Until the last two blowouts ...

That was a powerful observation.

So we're not getting blown out and we're in games?

I'd say that's different than what we did under Wade. We had an opportunity to get blown out by the Cardinals and the Saints and the Eagles and we did not.

I think that speaks to the difference.

I'll ask you the same question though.. the first 6 games under Wade this year and the last 7 under Garrett.. what big changes do you see with this team?

 

[wileedog]

This team is far and away a better team than it was under Wade. I'm really baffled that anyone can think otherwise.

I think they are far and away better than the team that went out and quit on Wade against Jax and GB.

But they are still the same team that was losing all of those close games early in the year, and still the same defense that folds time and again when it matters down the stretch.

I mean did anyone really, truly think the Cardinals weren't going to march right down the field and kick a FG when Beuhler missed that PA?

Its the same damn feeling year after year of this team finding ways to lose. They just can't seem to handle success at all.

A lot of it - and I mean a lot of it - is on these players. And asking Garrett to completely remake this team's makeup in half a season is completely unfair, so its not like I'm faulting him or anything. He did as best as could reasonably be expected with these numbskulls.

But other than a bit of a bump right after the coaching change, this team that gave away the game to the Cardinals isn't much different than the one that gave away the first game to the Commanders IMO.

 

[TNCowboy]

Do we need to compare the Jaguars and Packers game with any of the games the Cowboys played under Garrett?

My reservations with Garrett are this:

1) The ultimate evaluation is done by a person whose judgment on football matters led him to trade 2 high draft picks for Roy Williams, and;

2) Getting the team to actually show up and try is how we're going to judge the qualifications of a coach?

We can say Garrett needs a chance to do this, and look at this failure, or look at that success, but the truth is, Jerry Jones has already made up his mind. It may be that he's got his heart set on Garrett. If that's the case, it won't even matter if the team forfeits in Philly because they can't get even 11 guys to come out of the lockerroom....the job is Garrett's and the half season he coached is irrelevant, good or bad. Likewise, it wouldn't have mattered if Garrett had gone 8-0 if Jerry had already decided the opposite.

Personally, I thought it was a no-brainer that Jerry would keep him until I heard Jimmy on the pregame show yesterday. When asked about retaining Jason, Jimmy said something like "I would, but then he's a friend of mine. But I don't think Jerry will." If Jimmy believes something, especially considering how plugged in he still is, it gives me serious pause on believing the conventional wisdom with Garrett.

 

[WV Cowboy]

Its a bottom line business.. and we're still getting largely the results we got when Wade was here.

Finding ugly and embarassing ways to lose football games.

Take away the two games where this entire team quit, and look at the first 6 games we played under Wade, and the last 7 we've played under Garrett, and tell me what the big changes are?

Still finding painful ways to rip my heart out and lose.

http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3763968&postcount=127

 

[30yrheel]

kinda funny because a lot of people here were ready to ride garrett out on a rail as the OC, now he has support as HC.

 

[tyke1doe]

I'll ask you the same question though.. the first 6 games under Wade this year and the last 7 under Garrett.. what big changes do you see with this team?

It's interesting that you want to forget 35-17 and 45-7. Does that mean I get to forget the Saints loss and the Cardinals loss? :laugh2:

The Cowboys are fighting and in a position to win. They don't get blow out. In the 4th quarter in the Vikings, Titans and Bears game, we did not come back to win in the fourth quarter. We simply tied and let the other team march down the field to score.

Now, we not only are in the game, we're actually leading in the fourth quarter. We merely kill ourselves on dumb plays.

So let's recap:

Under Wade - blow outs.
Under Garrett - no blow outs.

Under Wade - no fourth quarter leads in losses.
Under Garrett - fourth quarter leads even in losses.

Under Wade - 1-7
Under Garrett - 4-3

All those show differences. It can't be spelled out any clearer.

 

[RoyTheHammer]

It's interesting that you want to forget 35-17 and 45-7. Does that mean I get to forget the Saints loss and the Cardinals loss? :laugh2:

The Cowboys are fighting and in a position to win. They don't get blow out. In the 4th quarter in the Vikings, Titans and Bears game, we did not come back to win in the fourth quarter. We simply tied and let the other team march down the field to score.

Now, we not only are in the game, we're actually leading in the fourth quarter. We merely kill ourselves on dumb plays.

So let's recap:

Under Wade - blow outs.
Under Garrett - no blow outs.

Under Wade - no fourth quarter leads in losses.
Under Garrett - fourth quarter leads even in losses.

Under Wade - 1-7
Under Garrett - 4-3

All those show differences. It can't be spelled out any clearer.

I can't explain what even happened those two games, except that i think we have some very heartless and gutless football players on this team.

However, the first 6 games under Wade, we were in every game. Since Garrett took over, we are in every game.

Under both coaches, we have been in pretty much every game, yet found pathetic and embarassing ways to lose. You just can't do that. Im glad we fight, but again, this is the Dallas Cowboys.

Im not ok with fighting, i expect to win. I expect a coach that won't tolerate dumb mistakes and will make sure they don't happen in the first place, at least not nearly so often. These past two weeks i've seen a sloppy effort. 7 fumbles against the Saints. An Eagles game that we should have won, and let them come back and get the win at the end.

For the record again, i like Garrett, and some of the changes he's made. I think he deserves a chance to come in here and get his own staff set up and let us see what he can do. However, there are still thinks to be skeptical about with him.

Its the same thing we saw under Wade, when we were "in" those games as well.

 

[Stautner]

All I hear in Cowboy Forums is that Garrett has changed the thinking of the team. I ask myself in what way has he changed this team? In running back to the huddle in practice? Wearing a tie to the football game? What does this have to do with football? OK the running back to the huddle give the players a sense of respect for the game. But I'm asking myself why did dallas fire Wade if its still getting the same results it did with Wade as HC. Yes they have won a couple more games, but other then the Giants win, Dallas couldve lost then other games if it werent for refs over officiating the game. Granted Dallas has come up o its own share of the bad part of that over officiating. My point is those could easily be loses.

I dont want to hear about how Garrett is playing with a backup QB. IMO Kitna has played just as good or better then Romo did at any part of the season. I dont want to hear about Romo played when Wade was coach, because Romo didnt answer to Wade. He answered to the guy who is HC now. Wade has nothing to do with the offense. Never has.

The OL is horrible. Im not going to bash and blame Colombo like 99% of Cowboy fans. Yes he's getting beat on plays, but its not because of lack of effort. If you look at the game nobody on that offense line tries harder. He just doesnt have the legs anymore. Injuries early in his career cut his career in half. Its not his fault the team hasnt found somebody better to replace him. They tell him to go and play and he does it 100%. JUst happens that his 100% isnt good enough anymore. Davis and Gurode are a different story. Theyre relatively young and healthy, theyre just bad. Cant get the 2nd level to create lanes, easily get confused on simple stunts by defense. Hell any movement along the front 7 for the defense and its usually a blown play for the Cowboys because of their lack of football intelligence and knowing who to block. Free is learning, he's fine aswell has Kosier if he could stay healthy. But this is Garretts fault, he's the ***'n OFFENSIVE COORDINATOR. Hes supposed to coordinate the offense. Teach them the principles of his scheme. This OL knows nothing about principles, let alone assignments. Last yr Dallas would destroy teams with its running game, this yr what is a running game?

WR: Can they drop and tip anymore passes into INT's? Austin is a stud but the guy drank too much of his own koolaid. He thinks he's better then what he is right now. And thats a **** shame because he could be the best WR in the league if he only put in the concentration he did when he was trying to crack the lineup. If you ask me he's been the Worst of the WR's this yr. Forget Roys fumble vs the saints. Austin has killed so many drives this yr and given up so many INT's that im sure Austin alone is responsible for atleast 8 of the Cowboys ints, could be more.

Garrett might become a good HC someday. Maybe next yr, but it shouldnt be with the Cowboys. The team has not shown any change in direction that it had when Wade was HC. While he is smart, he easily gets outcoached. IMO Jerrys interview was telling. Not because of content he spoke about with the NFLN crew. But in his demeanor, up until then when ask asked Jerrys face and body language told the story about how he felt. He didnt sidestep questions. He didnt start off answers by saying "look Jason is very smart", We know hes smart hes ivy league. Now he looks open to suggestion. Open to change. Thats not saying Garrett wont be HC next yr. I just think Jerry doesnt know if he wants Garrett as HC anymore. Hell with the performances of this team it even has Jimmy Johnson thinking and saying on tv that he doesnt think Garrett will be back. And he knows Jerry like few do.

With all this said, I wouldnt hate Garrett as HC im sure Jerry could do alot worse. But if he just does his homework he could do better too. Honestly I just want to see Dallas back in the super bowl.:starspin

So, you believe nothing has changed even though we have won more games under Garrett - that the fact a couple of wins could have gone the other way negates the added wins.

Well, what about the fact that a couple of the losses under Garrett could have gone teh other way? Had it not been for a fluke missed XP and a fluke tip of a pass and a fluke falling down making a cut by our recievers, the game Saturday easily could have gone the other way. The Saints game and the Philly game very esily could have gone the other way.

Guys like you ignore this - the "close games could have gone the other way" argument only applies in the direction you want it to. The team clearly has played better under Garrett, and have been much more competative even in the losses.

As for wearing ties, it's all part of an overall atmosphere of professionalism and an expected standard of conduct. Surely you are bright enough to understand that the tie alone doesn't make a big change, and that it's just one cog in the mechanism that leads to change. Surely ......

 

[Beast_from_East]

The team is (mostly) trying now. That's the biggest difference.

Whether or not that translates into Garrett displaying that he can be a successful NFL HC in the long-term, I don't know.

With the exception of the 2 games after Romo went down, this team did not get blown out 1 single time. All of our losses under Romo were games that came down to the wire, so I dont see how anybody can say the team didnt try under Wade.

I think it was WoodysGirl that said in another thread that the losses under Garrett and looking the same as the losses under Wade (with the excpetion of the 2 games after Romo went down).


She is 100% correct.

 

[RoyTheHammer]

Well, what about the fact that a couple of the losses under Garrett could have gone teh other way? Had it not been for a fluke missed XP and a fluke tip of a pass and a fluke falling down making a cut by our recievers, the game Saturday easily could have gone the other way. The Saints game and the Philly game very esily could have gone the other way.

The team clearly has played better under Garrett, and have been much more competative even in the losses.

The only thing i would say to this is when you have so many of these things that keep happening, they arn't really flukes anymore.

The "fluke" missed XP, the "fluke" tipped pass, the "fluke" falling in a cut, the "fluke" 7 fumbles against the Saints, the "fluke" 91 yard pass TD that we allowed against the Eagles..

At a certain point, i'd expect a good coach to mimimize these problems, as they seem to show a lack of focus and discipline by the team. We saw these things happen under Wade, and if we want to all suggest that Garrett is a much better coach and we'll be much more successful with him at the helm, then i don't expect to see these types of things continue to happen.