here a nice write up on Warford

[dart]

http://www.milehighreport.com/2013/...larry-warford-scouting-profile-denver-broncos


ANALYSIS

STRENGTHS Big-bodied guard prospect with lower-body girth. Quick feet for his size, keeps them moving in pass protection to mirror his man and can adjust quickly to ride defenders penetrating gaps out of the play. Also plays with knee bend and has arm length to maintain distance from his man, will reset and punch with one or two hands throughout the play. Capable of getting off tackle block to pick up delayed blitzer. Flashes quickness to trap and get around the tackle to lead run plays. Gets down quickly to cut block and take out linebackers in the hole on traps. Hustles downfield to help out ballcarriers when needed. Plays with some attitude, brings some pop to his punch when helping his tackle against a pass rusher.

WEAKNESSES As one might imagine for someone of his size, Warford is not tremendously explosive out of his stance. He also struggles to react quickly enough to defenders who are simply diving at his legs. For this reason, running directly behind him on short yardage situations is not as successful as one might expect given his size. It's also possible that quicker defensive lineman in the NFL with active hands could give him problems due to this deficiency.

NFL COMPARISON Marshal Yanda

Analysys

STRENGTHS: Possesses a short, squatty frame with broad shoulders, making him difficult for defensive tackles to slip past when he's in pass protection. Surprising balance and lateral agility in pass protection, showing the ability to slide in either direction. Strong hands which he uses to grab hold of the chest plate of the defender and pull him in close, negating any quickness or arm-length advantage the defender might have. Shows good awareness to handle surprise blitzes and the competitiveness to finish off defenders he sees off-balance. At least adequate initial quickness when getting out to pull. Uses his girth and impressive initial explosive pop to knock defenders off the ball

WEAKNESSES: Carries too much weight around his middle. Slow, even for a man of his size. Lacks the straight-line speed to consistently get to the second level in time to make blocks on the move. Drops his head at times, making him vulnerable to swim moves by quicker defensive tackles.

COMPARES TO: Uche Nwaneri, OG, Jacksonville Jaguars -- With a similar body-type, mauling style and level of durability, Warford could join Nwaneri as a dependable starter in the NFL--Rob Rang[

 

[supercowboy8]

Warford scares me in this zone blocking scheme and they fact that he says he only wants to play RG in the NFL. Warford is to heavy footed and doesn't have great body control when he pulls, he wiffs on alot blocks in open space.

 

[xwalker]

Warford scares me in this zone blocking scheme and they fact that he says he only wants to play RG in the NFL. Warford is to heavy footed and doesn't have great body control when he pulls, he wiffs on alot blocks in open space.

I wouldn't hate the Warford pick. I think a lot of his issues are technique. Also, at 333 lbs, he has room to lose a few pounds and improve his quickness. If he was 305 lbs with borderline quickness, then I would say absolutely not, but going from 333 to about 325 or even 320 could do wonders for his movement skills.

He absolutely has to quit dropping his head. When he does, the DL just makes a swim move right past him.

Having said the above, I agree that he is not the best fit for the ZBS. I would much prefer Dallas Thomas in the 2nd or Brian Winters in the 3rd/4th.

 

[Gaede]

I wouldn't hate the Warford pick. I think a lot of his issues are technique. Also, at 333 lbs, he has room to lose a few pounds and improve his quickness. If he was 305 lbs with borderline quickness, then I would say absolutely not, but going from 333 to about 325 or even 320 could do wonders for his movement skills.

He absolutely has to quit dropping his head. When he does, the DL just makes a swim move right past him.

Having said the above, I agree that he is not the best fit for the ZBS. I would much prefer Dallas Thomas in the 2nd or Brian Winters in the 3rd/4th.

I'm pencilling Thomas into everyone one of mock drafts. I think he's perfect for us.

The top 4 guards are very similar IMO. Thomas is kind of a poor mans Cooper and Warford a poor mans Warmack. I'm leaning towards trading down in round 1 so we're able to go DL in round 1 and get one of these tier 2 guards in the second. Fluker kind of hovers between these two tiers. Though he will most likely be a guard, he does have position flexibility. So I still picture him as a first rounder. Unless he bombs the combine.

 

[jnday]

Warford scares me in this zone blocking scheme and they fact that he says he only wants to play RG in the NFL. Warford is to heavy footed and doesn't have great body control when he pulls, he wiffs on alot blocks in open space.

He is not a zone guy, but wouldn't it be nice to have linemen that controls the LOS? Dallas doesn't have a lineman that they can run behind at any position. At the present time, Dallas has to take what the defense gives them because they sure can't impose their will on any defense.

 

[xwalker]

He is not a zone guy, but wouldn't it be nice to have linemen that controls the LOS? Dallas doesn't have a lineman that they can run behind at any position. At the present time, Dallas has to take what the defense gives them because they sure can't impose their will on any defense.

The theory of the ZBS is to give the OLinemen the advantage.

Here are some excerpts from an article about Callahan implementing the Zone Blocking Scheme with the Jets in 2009:

The science of zone blocking may not be overly complicated, but the latest addition to the Jets playbook has put Rex Ryan’s team on the precipice of a playoff berth.

They fool you on every play, baiting the overzealous, embarrassing the overaggressive and slipping through cracks you never knew existed.
When they do it just right, you look silly.

“As an offensive lineman, it’s a way to impose your will on another team,” Moore said. “The attitude of this team is run the ball and play defense. That’s all I ever asked for. That’s a recipe for a great team.”

The secret to the outside-zone style’s success is to let opponents do all the heavy lifting.

“It’s an illusion,” said Jones, who on Sunday will face the Bengals’ second-ranked rush defense (87.7 ypg), which has allowed only four teams to top 100 yards this season. “Instead of making the defense come to where you want them to go and then blocking them, you let the defense take themselves out of the play and you react. If they over-run it, you cut back. If they stay back, you stay front side.”

 

[burmafrd]

The theory of the ZBS is to give the OLinemen the advantage.

Here are some excerpts from an article about Callahan implementing the Zone Blocking Scheme with the Jets in 2009:

The science of zone blocking may not be overly complicated, but the latest addition to the Jets playbook has put Rex Ryan’s team on the precipice of a playoff berth.

They fool you on every play, baiting the overzealous, embarrassing the overaggressive and slipping through cracks you never knew existed.
When they do it just right, you look silly.

“As an offensive lineman, it’s a way to impose your will on another team,” Moore said. “The attitude of this team is run the ball and play defense. That’s all I ever asked for. That’s a recipe for a great team.”

The secret to the outside-zone style’s success is to let opponents do all the heavy lifting.

“It’s an illusion,” said Jones, who on Sunday will face the Bengals’ second-ranked rush defense (87.7 ypg), which has allowed only four teams to top 100 yards this season. “Instead of making the defense come to where you want them to go and then blocking them, you let the defense take themselves out of the play and you react. If they over-run it, you cut back. If they stay back, you stay front side.”

the BIG problem with zone blocking is when you run up against the top DL players who do not take the bait and who are strong and steady. Those guys eat zone blocking types right up. And guess who you are more likely to be up against in the playoffs?

That is why I want someone like Warmack. Who can pretty much move ANYONE around out of his way.

 

[jnday]

the BIG problem with zone blocking is when you run up against the top DL players who do not take the bait and who are strong and steady. Those guys eat zone blocking types right up. And guess who you are more likely to be up against in the playoffs?

That is why I want someone like Warmack. Who can pretty much move ANYONE around out of his way.

Exactly, size and power are the only way to move a defender that don't want to be moved. Some defenders are not stupid enough to take themselves out of the play. There is no reason to have lineman that are unable to line up and win a one on one battle at the LOS. There is nothing wrong with smash mouth football and in certain gsmes, it is the only way to win. Winning the one on one match-ups against a great DL takes more than trickery and hoping he takes himself out of the play.

 

[Rack]

Warford scares me in this zone blocking scheme and they fact that he says he only wants to play RG in the NFL. Warford is to heavy footed and doesn't have great body control when he pulls, he wiffs on alot blocks in open space.

Since we need a RG, I don't care that Warford is calling himself a RG only.


He's a physical guard, that can take the will out of the man across from him.



I'm ok with that.

 

[xwalker]

Exactly, size and power are the only way to move a defender that don't want to be moved. Some defenders are not stupid enough to take themselves out of the play.

The wording in those excepts does not give the full picture.

The DL has to be moving down the line to defend Zone runs. Even if the defender does not "overrun" the play, it is easier for the OLineman to keep the DL moving in the same direction that he is already going than it is to move a DL that is anchored down on the Line against a Man-Blocking type of running play.

This is where the cut-back run comes into play. If the DL pursues down the line to keep up with the running back, then the RB can cut-back while the OL blocks the DL in the direction that he was already moving.

If the DL lags behind to avoid the cut-back, then the RB can just out run the DL in the direction of the play.

The issue in the modern NFL, is that DLinemen have gotten bigger while the OLinemen have not for the most part.

In the early nineties Larry Allen, Nate Newton, Eric Williams, etc.. were all about 325 lbs or more; whereas, DTs were often well below 300 lbs such as Tony Casillas (6-3, 278).

Now, the average DT is over 300 lbs and it is not uncommon for them to be significantly over 300; whereas, the average OLineman is not any bigger and often smaller than those early nineties OLinemen.

Finding OLinemen that can blow a DLineman off the Line that is his same size, is hard to find.

 

[jnday]

Exactly, size and power are the only way to move a defender that don't want to be moved. Some defenders are not stupid enough to take themselves out of the play. There is no reason to have lineman that are unable to line up and win a one on one battle at the LOS. There is nothing wrong with smash mouth football and in certain gsmes, it is the only way to win. Winning the one on one match-ups against a great DL takes more than trickery and hoping he takes himself out of the play.

The wording in those excepts does not give the full picture.

The DL has to be moving down the line to defend Zone runs. Even if the defender does not "overrun" the play, it is easier for the OLineman to keep the DL moving in the same direction that he is already going than it is to move a DL that is anchored down on the Line against a Man-Blocking type of running play.

This is where the cut-back run comes into play. If the DL pursues down the line to keep up with the running back, then the RB can cut-back while the OL blocks the DL in the direction that he was already moving.

If the DL lags behind to avoid the cut-back, then the RB can just out run the DL in the direction of the play.

The issue in the modern NFL, is that DLinemen have gotten bigger while the OLinemen have not for the most part.

In the early nineties Larry Allen, Nate Newton, Eric Williams, etc.. were all about 325 lbs or more; whereas, DTs were often well below 300 lbs such as Tony Casillas (6-3, 278).

Now, the average DT is over 300 lbs and it is not uncommon for them to be significantly over 300; whereas, the average OLineman is not any bigger and often smaller than those early nineties OLinemen.

Finding OLinemen that can blow a DLineman off the Line that is his same size, is hard to find.

Not that hard to find. It is hard to have them on the team if Jerry doesn't draft them. Warford, Frederick and Warmack fit the bill this year. Glenn and Osemele fit it last year. These are just some examples. I played and coached the man to man and zone blocking. I am well aware of how it works. The only zone blocking that I really cared for was using some zone concepts with the big men in certain situations. The problem with Dallas is that they get linemen that are just good enough to get by, not excell. They are not willing to use the second and third round picks that it takes to get talent for any kind of blocking scheme. IMO the reason for the change to the zone is that those linemen are a dime a dozen. There are tons of the 290-300lb guys that fit zone blocking. Jerry had rather bring a few in and go hope for the best.

 

[supercowboy8]

Since we need a RG, I don't care that Warford is calling himself a RG only.


He's a physical guard, that can take the will out of the man across from him.



I'm ok with that.

but he doesn't fit the scheme Callahen runs. Why can't people understand that.
Fluker, Warford, and Frederick would be great to have if we have an OL like Minnesota and were a run first power blocking scheme, which is what I wish we would become, but we will not and aren't so we need lighter quicker OL that can pull and move to the second level.

 

[xwalker]

Not that hard to find. It is hard to have them on the team if Jerry doesn't draft them. Warford, Frederick and Warmack fit the bill this year. Glenn and Osemele fit it last year. These are just some examples. I played and coached the man to man and zone blocking. I am well aware of how it works. The only zone blocking that I really cared for was using some zone concepts with the big men in certain situations. The problem with Dallas is that they get linemen that are just good enough to get by, not excell. They are not willing to use the second and third round picks that it takes to get talent for any kind of blocking scheme. IMO the reason for the change to the zone is that those linemen are a dime a dozen. There are tons of the 290-300lb guys that fit zone blocking. Jerry had rather bring a few in and go hope for the best.

The most difficult issue finding great man-run-blocking OLinemen is that the big powerful guys tend to not be great pass-blockers. In general, if you draft Guards outside of the 1st round, you have two types:

1. Big Powerful Man-Run-Blocker, Average to below average pass-blocker.

2. Great pass-blocker, that is smaller/quicker and average to below average run-blocker.

The biggest benefit to using a ZBS in the running game, is that you can use players in category #2. You get players that are the best run-blockers for your scheme while also being the best pass-blockers.

In the Man-Run-Blocking scheme, you're always making a trade-off in the type of players that you draft/acquire.

Using Warford, for example, I've seen him get completely beaten by quick pass-rushers. I think he can improve in this area by losing some weight and with some improved technique; however, he is never going to have the quick-twitch athleticism of Dallas Thomas or Jonathan Cooper.

I don't think that there is any doubt that Warford can dominate in one-on-one man-run-blocking and is bigger and more powerful than Dallas Thomas; however, Thomas has much better tools to deal with super quick NFL pass-rushing DTs like JJ Watt, Henry Melton, etc..

With the modern NFL being a pass dominant league, you really want to assemble the best pass-blocking OLine possible while also being a good run-blocking team. The ZBS allows teams to have effective running games while using players that are the best pass-blockers.

If you have Larry Allen, then it does not matter because he was both stronger and quicker than other OLinemen; however, you don't find many guys with that combination.

Even with Warmack, you're giving up something in pass-blocking in order to have a dominant Man-Run-Blocking OG. Warmack is one of the most dominant power players that I've seen in a long time, but he does not have Larry Allen type of quickness and he definitely does not have Jonathan Cooper type of athletic ability.

It's difficult to compare lower levels of football to the NFL. If you just look at Alabama, for example, the requirements of their OLine are different than the requirements that will be placed on those same players in the NFL. Alabama won with great defense and a dominant running game and used the passing game to mix it up. Their OLine didn't have to be great at pass-blocking for a number of reasons. They ran the ball a high percentage of the time and when they did pass, the defenses appeared tentative in pass-rushing because they were playing to avoid getting gashed in the run game. It helped that their defense allowed them to play with a lead or a very close score for the majority of snaps.

When a guy like Fluker gets to the NFL, the opposing defenses are not always going to be playing run-1st defense. Fluker's QB is going to have to go through a progression of reads as opposed to just making quick throws to his primary read on most plays. If he lines up at RT at 355 lbs, guys like DeMarcus Ware, Von Miller, etc.. are going to blow past him often. There will be some running plays where Fluker makes defenders look silly, but that's not going to offset the fact that he has to pass-block on more than 50% of the snaps. Playing OT at 350+ didn't work for Leonard Davis and it's doubtful to work for Fluker.

 

[jnday]

but he doesn't fit the scheme Callahen runs. Why can't people understand that.
Fluker, Warford, and Frederick would be great to have if we have an OL like Minnesota and were a run first power blocking scheme, which is what I wish we would become, but we will not and aren't so we need lighter quicker OL that can pull and move to the second level.

With Garrett on the hotseat,. I really don't want to invest in a Callahan lineman when him and Garrett could be gone after the season. Another ray of hope is that Livings and Bernadeau are not zone blocking linemen. They tried the small linemen and it failed. I hope that failure knocked some sense into them. Any system that can't use Warmack, Warford, Fluker or Frederick is screwed up anyway. As I said before, I don't give a damn about a lineman getting to the second level if he can't block at the first level. Most of the small guys can't. Of course I prefer smash mouth, power football and it is only my opinion.

 

[supercowboy8]

With Garrett on the hotseat,. I really don't want to invest in a Callahan lineman when him and Garrett could be gone after the season. Another ray of hope is that Livings and Bernadeau are not zone blocking linemen. They tried the small linemen and it failed. I hope that failure knocked some sense into them. Any system that can't use Warmack, Warford, Fluker or Frederick is screwed up anyway. As I said before, I don't give a damn about a lineman getting to the second level if he can't block at the first level. Most of the small guys can't. Of course I prefer smash mouth, power football and it is only my opinion.

But it doesn't matter what you think or want. Garrett and callahan wants their guys because they are on the hot seat. Also living and bern didn't work because they suck. Also warmack would fit in any scheme thats why he is a top 10 talent.

Also you then take away players like Dallas Thomas and Jon Cooper who are great fits in zone blocking.

Also look at Houston, they won't even have Fluker, Warford or Frederick on their board because they don't fit the scheme and they are doing fine.

I prefer like you, the power man blocking, but its not up to us. We have to focus in the guys that does fit the current scheme since that's what is going to happen.

 

[burmafrd]

With Garrett on the hotseat,. I really don't want to invest in a Callahan lineman when him and Garrett could be gone after the season. Another ray of hope is that Livings and Bernadeau are not zone blocking linemen. They tried the small linemen and it failed. I hope that failure knocked some sense into them. Any system that can't use Warmack, Warford, Fluker or Frederick is screwed up anyway. As I said before, I don't give a damn about a lineman getting to the second level if he can't block at the first level. Most of the small guys can't. Of course I prefer smash mouth, power football and it is only my opinion.

just how often is it important for a O lineman to be good at the second level?

Compared to every play needing to get it done right on the line of scrimmage?

 

[tm1119]

Is it just me or was that completely contradicting? In the strengths part it talked about his quick feet and ability to trap. Then in the weakness part it talks about how slow he is and making him sound almost imbobile.

Either way, I'm not crazy about Warford. I think there will be a lot better players available when we pick in the 2nd.

 

[xwalker]

just how often is it important for a O lineman to be good at the second level?

Compared to every play needing to get it done right on the line of scrimmage?

Getting access to the All-22 this year was a bit of an eye opener on just how often running plays failed due to missed 2nd level blocks.

Failed might not be exactly the correct wording. Many of the plays might have gaining 1 or 2 yards, but you could easily see where just one missed block prevented a significantly bigger gain. It was not always just the OLine, the TEs missed their fair share of blocks also.

Many of the missed 2nd level blocks were just due the blocker being literally 1-step late. The 2nd level block does not always need to be a great block. Sometimes you just need the blocker in the way such that the defender can't get a direct path to the RB.

Sometimes the missed block is due to physical limitations of the blocker. This was often an issue with Cook. He is just too slow footed to get where he needed to be to make the block.

Sometimes the issue is the timing of a player's initial help block. Many plays require that a player give a quick help-block to to allow the primary blocker time to establish position to maintain the block. If the help blocker stays on the initial block a split second too long, then he is going to miss the 2nd level block; whereas, if the moves too quickly to the 2nd level, then the other blocker fails with his primary block.

Another issue that occurs is that the blocker just can't get a clean release from the line due to either a lack of strength or quickness and he ends up trapped behind another blocker. This seemed to happen to John Phillips an number of times.

The final issue is that sometimes the blocking appears to be doomed for failure prior to the snap. For example:
The play call is a run to the inside of the RT.
The Center is required to make a reach block on a DL that is aligned to his right.
The RG is required to get to a LB that is behind and slightly to the right of that DLineman.
Everything works great if the defense does not move significantly prior to the snap; however, if the DL moves to the Center's right by any amount, then the reach block becomes impossible. Ideally, this blocking call should have changed to have the RG block the DL and have the Center do his best to get out to the LB. Even if the Center can't get to the LB, the play should still get a yard or two instead of getting blown up in the backfield when the Center can't get the reach block on the DL.

In theory, Zone Blocking should help in this situation. True Zone Blocking is not dependent on the Center making a blocking call. The scheme dictates to each individual OLineman exactly what he needs to do on the block. It requires a little more mental processing by each individual OLineman; however, it prevents the scenario described above if each OLineman executes their individual "read" correctly.

 

[burmafrd]

I want a guy on our line that can blow anyone away. Someone on Third and one or Fourth and goal at the One that the D has to really worry about.

We have not had that since LA was in his prime.

Having that one guy that can do it forces the D to compensate and leaves other possibilities.

The more you can force the D to worry about the better



Never been a real fan of ZBS because when it gets down to it and you are up against the top D's and you have to move the top players they cannot.

Or stop the real bull rushes.

 

[xwalker]

I want a guy on our line that can blow anyone away. Someone on Third and one or Fourth and goal at the One that the D has to really worry about.

We have not had that since LA was in his prime.

Having that one guy that can do it forces the D to compensate and leaves other possibilities.

The more you can force the D to worry about the better



Never been a real fan of ZBS because when it gets down to it and you are up against the top D's and you have to move the top players they cannot.

Or stop the real bull rushes.

That is only true if you have players in the ZBS that can't play in a Man-Blocking scheme. If you get a player that can excel in either scheme, then there is no negative to using Zone Blocking.

The Texans run a true ZBS and they drafted Brandon Brooks (6-5, 346, 4.99 forty) in the 3rd round of the 2012 draft. Kubiak did give Brooks a strict weight limit and it was reported that Kubiak went ballistic when Brooks reported 2 pounds over the limit.

Larry Allen could easily have played in ZBS. They still run some man-blocking in ZBS schemes. You're not really losing anything.