Improving at LG

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Football outsiders is good but the difference between these two tables if that Football outsiders has developed a formula for their stat....PFF's stat is based only on raw data collecting. I think both stats are good and should be used for separate arguments. PFF's raw data is what it is while the formula from football outsiders has some projection in it. As far as being ranked #4 in Mid/Guard....that doesn't necessarily surprise me considering that we have two of the best in the game at Center and RG....I'd argue if not for Cooper, we'd be ranked #1 there.

This is nonsense. Their rating system is completely subjective and the opposite of raw data. Even how they determine how certain thresholds are met like "before contact" is subjective.

FO actually contextualizes and normalizes their stats. This is necessary considering all teams do not all play each other and you play division opponents twice. With your "raw data" a team in a weak conference is going to look better than they actually are.

All 3 defensive fronts in our division are outstanding in our case.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

This is a true statement but let's be real, the RB ultimately shouldn't have a HUGE effect on these numbers because if an Oline is letting people into the backfield on designed run plays often then it's simply not doing its job. I would argue that Zeke not being there and hiding that fact is a more true statement of play than Zeke being there and making it look better than it is.

This is again nonsense. Some RB run to light some run to darkness. It is literally the difference between getting hit at the los and the secondary. Zeke has tremendous vision.

Further elusiveness is the difference between a 3 yard loss on penetration and at least getting back to the los. You are literally talking more than a yard of difference on any given play and the range in data is not all that much wider than that.

You really, really suck at statistics. You do not know how to interpret them or conceptualize them. You should just stop.

 

[Mobinvans]

We cant just have pro bowlers at every position at the line, coaches are going to have to step up or somnething

We need a DT,FS/SS,WR more than anything

 

[glimmerman]

At what cost?

How much can a team spend on one position group? Tyron, Beard, and LC already got contracts and Martin is about to get a BIG ONE.

I like the idea but it needs to come at a YUGE bargain.

FA or 2nd round pick. Or both. I would like to see us get at least 2 O-Linemen that are at least average. I think Collins did ok and will improve. I worry more about Tyron’s back.

 

[xwalker]

I've stated in previous posts that our line this season was drug down by the play at the LG and RT positions. The players we lost there were much better than the guys who filled in those positions this season. For some reason people on this board (and back on DC) have convinced themselves that Collins played well, when in reality he didn't. We don't have to rehash that debate though and I can only hope that we draft a tackle that can push him.

When it comes to LG though, I have to believe that most people realize that Cooper was trash soup in 2017. Many hoped that his play would elevate between Smith and Frederick but that simply wasn't the case....he's a bad player and we get nothing from him at that position. We could draft a Guard but we already know that we need to draft a Tackle (for depth at the very least) and really can't afford to be picking two OL players, much less hope that we can find two good ones in the draft.

So I want to throw a name out there that I'd like us to go after in free agency: Justin Pugh from the Giants. He was a first round pick of theirs in 2013; he started his career with them as a RT where he performed at an okay level before moving to LG. He was much a much better guard for them his first two years doing it (2015 and 2016) and in fact, he graded out better in 2016 as a LG than Leary did for us in 2016. The kicker is that his 2017 was bad....there could be a ton of explanations for this....he did play through injuries, the Oline talent around him regressed (particularly at Center) and the entire Giants team was a shipwreck in 2017.

I think this could benefit us however....I think his poor 2017 could simply be an anomaly and he could return to form. The Giants don't appear interested in keeping him and we could perhaps get him on a decent deal considering his play last season. I especially like his chances to perform well between Smith and Frederick; I'm at least confident that he outperforms Cooper there. He's 27 and I would certainly be interested in getting him on a 3-4 year deal. Thoughts?

Wrong.

The injuries to Tyron killed the OL. Even when he played, he was not 100% in several games. He had 3 separate injuries. Back, groin and ankle/foot.

Martin also missed some time with an injury which affected him even when he returned.

La'el at RT took some time to develop consistency but he was better in every game than Free in 2016. La'el shut down Von Miller for 3 quarters. Once they had to pass on every play starting at about the beginning of the 4th, Miller started having some success, but he jumped off-sides at least 3 times trying to get a jump on La'el.

Cooper was steady. With a healthy Tyron next to him he is a solid player. He just can't make up for Green/Bell the way Martin made up for Free in the past.

 

[EPL0c0]

Draft Will Hernandez.

It’s not just his play, it’s his s attitude. He’s a mauler & has the nastiness behind it.

Cooper developed well in 2017, but I think he’s quality depth at best

 

[diefree666]

Wrong.

The injuries to Tyron killed the OL. Even when he played, he was not 100% in several games. He had 3 separate injuries. Back, groin and ankle/foot.

Martin also missed some time with an injury which affected him even when he returned.

La'el at RT took some time to develop consistency but he was better in every game than Free in 2016. La'el shut down Von Miller for 3 quarters. Once they had to pass on every play starting at about the beginning of the 4th, Miller started having some success, but he jumped off-sides at least 3 times trying to get a jump on La'el.

Cooper was steady. With a healthy Tyron next to him he is a solid player. He just can't make up for Green/Bell the way Martin made up for Free in the past.

You have to be one of the absolute best to do part of the next guys job as well as your own.

 

[xwalker]

You have to be one of the absolute best to do part of the next guys job as well as your own.

Agree.

Martin compensated for Free starting Martin's rookie year. They had him align closer to Free with a bigger gap between Martin and Frederick. That minimized pass rushers ability to beat Free inside and allowed Free to over-set to the outside giving him an advantage. Martin also helped Free more than normal. Fred had to favor the right side to compensate for Martin compensating for Free.

This put an extra strain on the LG because he rarely got help and was often on a island almost like an OT with Fred, Martin and Free often lumped together after the snap on the right and Tyron riding his man wide on the left.

I actually did screen shots and imported them into a CAD program to measure the pre-snap splits on the OL.

 

[cern]

Tryon Smith was drafted with the thought he'd be a star. Freddy and Zack turned out to be better than expected. Leary, until he left was better than expected. Collins has played very. Reason..........good o-line coaching. Hope the new guy can be as good as Frank Pollack.

 

[Plankton]

Pugh has a back injury. Stay far far away.

 

[diefree666]

Agree.

Martin compensated for Free starting Martin's rookie year. They had him align closer to Free with a bigger gap between Martin and Frederick. That minimized pass rushers ability to beat Free inside and allowed Free to over-set to the outside giving him an advantage. Martin also helped Free more than normal. Fred had to favor the right side to compensate for Martin compensating for Free.

This put an extra strain on the LG because he rarely got help and was often on a island almost like an OT with Fred, Martin and Free often lumped together after the snap on the right and Tyron riding his man wide on the left.

I actually did screen shots and imported them into a CAD program to measure the pre-snap splits on the OL.

One of the problems this year was that collins did need some help especially early on; thus Martin had to as you describe and Fred did as well; which left Cooper with a bigger gap and then of course came the twin disasters of Green and Bell and the fact that Tyron was limited. Cooper I consider a good guard who should get better the longer he works with the other guys. He is not what he was expected to be coming out but overall he can get the job done as long as he just has to do HIS job.

 

[northerncowboynation]

I've stated in previous posts that our line this season was drug down by the play at the LG and RT positions. The players we lost there were much better than the guys who filled in those positions this season. For some reason people on this board (and back on DC) have convinced themselves that Collins played well, when in reality he didn't. We don't have to rehash that debate though and I can only hope that we draft a tackle that can push him.

When it comes to LG though, I have to believe that most people realize that Cooper was trash soup in 2017. Many hoped that his play would elevate between Smith and Frederick but that simply wasn't the case....he's a bad player and we get nothing from him at that position. We could draft a Guard but we already know that we need to draft a Tackle (for depth at the very least) and really can't afford to be picking two OL players, much less hope that we can find two good ones in the draft.

So I want to throw a name out there that I'd like us to go after in free agency: Justin Pugh from the Giants. He was a first round pick of theirs in 2013; he started his career with them as a RT where he performed at an okay level before moving to LG. He was much a much better guard for them his first two years doing it (2015 and 2016) and in fact, he graded out better in 2016 as a LG than Leary did for us in 2016. The kicker is that his 2017 was bad....there could be a ton of explanations for this....he did play through injuries, the Oline talent around him regressed (particularly at Center) and the entire Giants team was a shipwreck in 2017.

I think this could benefit us however....I think his poor 2017 could simply be an anomaly and he could return to form. The Giants don't appear interested in keeping him and we could perhaps get him on a decent deal considering his play last season. I especially like his chances to perform well between Smith and Frederick; I'm at least confident that he outperforms Cooper there. He's 27 and I would certainly be interested in getting him on a 3-4 year deal. Thoughts?

Totally agree that we have to improve two positions on the line, LG and LT. I'm not even going to say "swing tackle", that implies the ability to play both positions but says nothing about their ability to play it at a starter level. Byron Bell was that. Chaz Green was that. I wouldn't call Cooper "trash soup" but he certainly isn't the first round talent he was drafted for.

Personally I'd draft Will Hernandez. He's a brawler, great foot work, quick and agile, a battler. Starter out of the gate. Will be interested to see what he lifts at the combine. Can he be had in the second round? Could we package our second and a conditional pick and move up to get him.

Not interested in Justin Pugh. JAG and we've had JAGs

 

[buybuydandavis]

Lol this board. It's quite obvious that our Oline took a big step back this year compared to the past three years.... How exactly do most of you think the regression occurred? Do you actually think it's all attributed to Tyron Smith and his injury issues???

1. Chaz Green starts the year for 3 games at LG
2. New position for Collins, and it showed.
3. Cooper working his way back from a big injury, and not getting the starting reps in the offseason or during early game weeks.
4. Two positions with new players. That takes some time to work out even if the players have no issues.
5. Tyron misses a few games. Chaz plays LT, after training at LG all year. Coaches are idiots and don't give him help.

1-4 all not the issue next year. Even 5 should be better, as if Green can just regain his T play of 2016.

I think Collins was more than fine by the end of the year, and should only be better next year. Cooper was a little subpar even at the end, but he was getting healthy and getting back into the groove of playing after a . Both of them now have experience with the oline, that should improve in the offseason, so we'd have the advantage of continuity.

You're dreaming if you think we're going to upgrade over Collins.

Maybe we go with Cooper. Maybe not. If not, we won't be getting a big upgrade over him. LG is going to be the weak link on the oline regardless. And it should be. I think that's their cap strategy for the oline. Can't put all our resources into the oline. We have needs elsewhere.

 

[jrumann59]

So you want the Cowboys to pay Pugh what the Broncos paid Leary? Why didn't we just keep Leary then? This makes no sense. Draft a G in the first 2 rounds. La'el will be improved next season.

Because he was not going to stay. Also Free's retirement was a "surprise". But mainly the first point it would have cost more than what Denver offered to keep Leary. That bridge was fire bombed after collins replaced him.

 

[TwentyOne]

We are good at RT.

Collins had some problems in the first few games but got better as the season went on. Give him a offseason where he solely can concentrate on the tackle position. He is a good one.

I think we will draft a OG. We have way too much money invested in the OL right now. We have to have a good player who also reduces the average cost of our OL. 2nd or 3rd round pick should do great for us. But in case nelson drops to us.... who knows what happens (someone can dream).

 

[4lifecowboy]

The team was in a worse situation cap wise when Leary became a free agent and I just said I wanted a deal for Pugh that was slightly less....granted I'm not an agent or GM, perhaps we could get something significantly less. I just know that the guy had two straight years of high level play and a bad 2017.

Rather draft a LG

 

[condoin125]

This is nonsense. Their rating system is completely subjective and the opposite of raw data. Even how they determine how certain thresholds are met like "before contact" is subjective.

FO actually contextualizes and normalizes their stats. This is necessary considering all teams do not all play each other and you play division opponents twice. With your "raw data" a team in a weak conference is going to look better than they actually are.

All 3 defensive fronts in our division are outstanding in our case.

Their rating system has absolutely nothing to do with the table I've referenced, which I've already said several times. And how is "before contact" subjective? It literally refers to how many yards a RB gains before being touched....there is nothing subjective about that at all. Do you know what that word means? Yes, our division has good defensive fronts but it did back in 2016 as well. My point wasn't how well our Oline did in 2017 vs other teams, it was how well it did in 2016 compared to 2017. We faced those same defensive fronts (which were somewhat better in 2016) in 2016 and had a much higher average before contact.

As to your other post, you're trying act like I said the RB would have no effect on this data and I clearly never said that. I said that Zeke dodging tackles would actually make the Oline look better than it actually was doing in fact. I also indicated that with an RB of Zeke's talents (something the average NFL team doesn't have) the data produced by the team without him would be a better indication of how well they were run blocking with a more average RB like Morris back there...and Zeke still played TEN GAMES...he wasn't gone the whole season or even half of it. Do you wanna bet that the average yards before contact in the ten games with Zeke was the same or higher compared to all of 2016? Because it clearly wasn't if you watched the games. Not that this is something we should even need data for....anyone who watched all of the games closely for the past two seasons can see the stark differences in the Oline play; we allowed much more penetration in 2017 vs 2016....can't believe I even have to spell that out.

Also your need to attack PFF's data keeping is ridiculous. There are so many things that happen on a play-by-play basis in football that stats just don't account for and PFF has been attempting to address that the last few years. No one acts like their data is perfect or the final say, but it is another useful tool in helping to evaluate the game.

TLDR; You said I know nothing of statistics and then made two dumb arguments that actually had no statistical basis at all.

 

[condoin125]

Wrong.

The injuries to Tyron killed the OL. Even when he played, he was not 100% in several games. He had 3 separate injuries. Back, groin and ankle/foot.

Martin also missed some time with an injury which affected him even when he returned.

La'el at RT took some time to develop consistency but he was better in every game than Free in 2016. La'el shut down Von Miller for 3 quarters. Once they had to pass on every play starting at about the beginning of the 4th, Miller started having some success, but he jumped off-sides at least 3 times trying to get a jump on La'el.

Cooper was steady. With a healthy Tyron next to him he is a solid player. He just can't make up for Green/Bell the way Martin made up for Free in the past.

I love how you start out with "wrong" and then go on to say that Collins shut down Von Miller for three quarters. In that game Collins game up 11 total pressures to Von Miller (and would have had more if not being bailed out by pentalty calls). A pressure is defined by a hurry, a QB knockdown or a sack....so you think he gave up all 11 of those pressures in the fourth quarter? Oh, no you think because he gave up no sacks in the first three quarters (I'm assuming that's the case and taking your word for it) then that means he played well; I mean that's literally the weakest way of judging how an Olineman performs. Allowing a guy to consistently get pressure on the QB during a game, even if you don't allow sacks, is not good play from the tackle position. It hurries a QB through his reads and makes him take hits that will rattle/hurt him. It's stunning to me that you would use Collins' worst game of the year as a means to defend him; Collins' was so bad that game it's almost making me feel bad for using that game as a means to attack Dak's 2017 play.

And I can only LOL at you saying that Tyron and Martin missing time were the main reasons for the line's step back. Sure Tyron missing time hurt us, but he only missed three games...he was there the majority of the time. Martin barely missed any time and played in all 16 games. But there's absolutely no way that the two new guys had anything at all to do with huge step back our line took (a line that was the best from 2014-2016).....that would be crazy to think.

 

[condoin125]

1. Chaz Green starts the year for 3 games at LG
2. New position for Collins, and it showed.
3. Cooper working his way back from a big injury, and not getting the starting reps in the offseason or during early game weeks.
4. Two positions with new players. That takes some time to work out even if the players have no issues.
5. Tyron misses a few games. Chaz plays LT, after training at LG all year. Coaches are idiots and don't give him help.

1-4 all not the issue next year. Even 5 should be better, as if Green can just regain his T play of 2016.

I think Collins was more than fine by the end of the year, and should only be better next year. Cooper was a little subpar even at the end, but he was getting healthy and getting back into the groove of playing after a . Both of them now have experience with the oline, that should improve in the offseason, so we'd have the advantage of continuity.

You're dreaming if you think we're going to upgrade over Collins.

Maybe we go with Cooper. Maybe not. If not, we won't be getting a big upgrade over him. LG is going to be the weak link on the oline regardless. And it should be. I think that's their cap strategy for the oline. Can't put all our resources into the oline. We have needs elsewhere.

Well at least you're acknowledging that we got poor play from the positions I outlined. I agree we can't put all of our resources into the line but some things need to be fixed and if drafting a LG is the only way to go with that then so be it.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Their rating system has absolutely nothing to do with the table I've referenced, which I've already said several times. And how is "before contact" subjective? It literally refers to how many yards a RB gains before being touched....there is nothing subjective about that at all. Do you know what that word means? Yes, our division has good defensive fronts but it did back in 2016 as well. My point wasn't how well our Oline did in 2017 vs other teams, it was how well it did in 2016 compared to 2017. We faced those same defensive fronts (which were somewhat better in 2016) in 2016 and had a much higher average before contact.

As to your other post, you're trying act like I said the RB would have no effect on this data and I clearly never said that. I said that Zeke dodging tackles would actually make the Oline look better than it actually was doing in fact. I also indicated that with an RB of Zeke's talents (something the average NFL team doesn't have) the data produced by the team without him would be a better indication of how well they were run blocking with a more average RB like Morris back there...and Zeke still played TEN GAMES...he wasn't gone the whole season or even half of it. Do you wanna bet that the average yards before contact in the ten games with Zeke was the same or higher compared to all of 2016? Because it clearly wasn't if you watched the games. Not that this is something we should even need data for....anyone who watched all of the games closely for the past two seasons can see the stark differences in the Oline play; we allowed much more penetration in 2017 vs 2016....can't believe I even have to spell that out.

Also your need to attack PFF's data keeping is ridiculous. There are so many things that happen on a play-by-play basis in football that stats just don't account for and PFF has been attempting to address that the last few years. No one acts like their data is perfect or the final say, but it is another useful tool in helping to evaluate the game.

TLDR; You said I know nothing of statistics and then made two dumb arguments that actually had no statistical basis at all.

Define contact. If a defender pushes a blocker into the back is that contact? Is a fingertip contact?

You completely missed the point about not having common opponents and the need to normalize. Raw data is only worthwhile if you are comparing apples to apples. This is the crux of what I am talking about when you crow about "raw data." It illustrates quite clearly you have no idea what you are talking about.

While you do not understand what DVOA is doing that does not mean that PFF's raw data is better. It just means you have noidea what you are talking about. At the end of the day DVOA is comparing apples to apples and PFF is not.

Your point about 2016 versus 2017 does nothing to change any of that. Further there were other issues on the OL in 2017 that were not present in 2016 notably Tyron and Zeke missing so much time. Our best OL being hurt most of the year and the learning curve LC dealt with mattered. Early in the year TFred was not very good trying to help Green as well. I know you want that to not matter but it does so deal with it.

I watched the games and did not see what you claim about yards before contact. You of course have no basis for said claims. Further, while Zeke played 10 games he also missed 6. A 40% decrease in availability is significant as is such a long layoff once he came back.

And I criticize PFF's stats because they have some serious issues that I have outlined. Their rating system in particular is a joke as is there assignation for coverage regardless of your using them. Your using their "raw stats" is not attacking their method though. That is all on you.