CFZ Individual Matchups/Execution Dictate Effective Play-calling

[jazzcat22]

How about in-game adjustments. He never seems to do or be able to make them.
Maybe he does and we don't see it as much, or the defenses made their adjustments to counter him. Hard to say.

Now last season the 1st 5 or 6 games, even the announcers and media was saying he put together some great game plans. And he did.
Then injuries and such, later on did not seem to go as well.
So was it more on Kellen, or more on the players.

Sometimes good / great players make average coaches look good / great.

 

[75boyz]

How about in-game adjustments. He never seems to do or be able to make them.
Maybe he does and we don't see it as much, or the defenses made their adjustments to counter him. Hard to say.

Now last season the 1st 5 or 6 games, even the announcers and media was saying he put together some great game plans. And he did.
Then injuries and such, later on did not seem to go as well.
So was it more on Kellen, or more on the players.

Sometimes good / great players make average coaches look good / great.

So then why doesn't the SB winning 20 plus year offensive minded coach/playcaller get involved again?

The offseason report was he supposedly was 1. gonna fix penalties
2. Gonna be more involved in the offense

You still never respond when I ask this stuff.
Is the whole Thou shalt not touch Kellen's Offense from Coach Jerry the reason? Or has been reported his unfamiliarity with play book terminology?

Heck, I could call time outs and let Bones, Dan and Kellen run the show for 5 million a year.

Again I'll say it.
If the offense struggles with regards to playcalling it is the head coaches job to elbow wonderkid outta the way and take charge. Period.

Your double standard creed comes full circle when you apply 2 different sets of standards to the OC and HC.

This is not the first time I've mentioned this.

 

[Diehardblues]

The biggest complaint I have with Moore is his lack of "feel" in his play calling. I won't bore you with my take on his brain dead approach to the running game but even in the passing game he insists on treating all the players like they are on the same level. This approach has led to our repeatedly not taking advantage of favorable matchups. We have played teams whose corners couldn't cover Amari Cooper in a phone booth.. yet the only time Moore really featured him was after Cooper called him out and even that only lasted one game. The notion that we need to "get everyone involved" is stoopid. Feeding your studs is how you win games.. Treating every guy like a chess piece is how you end up around .500. You beat up on crappy teams but then you get pantsed by good ones..

If we are consistently whooping crappy teams being beaten by better teams then that’s more on our talent than coaching .

If we were being upset consistently then I’d be more apt to blame coaching .

 

[phildadon86]

Every week during a long season, many fans make the comment, “They need to run the ____ play that worked so well against Cincy”. Or when good plays happen, “Where was that against Tampa?” Or why don’t we run more ____plays that worked so well against _____?”

Well the correct answer to all questions is this: sometimes plays work and don’t work because of the individual matchups- and the players’ execution of those plays- not just because they are “great plays”. In other words matchups and execution matter. And sometimes a dominant player on the other side may dictate a lot of what you do or don’t do.

Think about what the giants are doing this week preparing for Micah Parsons. After watching the film on him, I guarantee there will be some plays they DON’T run because of what Micah Parsons can do. I promise you, many giants fans will be screaming at their tvs about why they aren’t running plays that worked last week. The correct answer to that is because the matchups are different this week.

Watching Cooper Rush hit on multiple passes that Dak didn’t the week before was a combination of Dak playing poorly coupled with a very tough Tampa defense. Look at what Tampa did to the saints last week. Rush played very well Sunday against Cincy but their defense isn’t the Bucs.

So in this long season, don’t be surprised if you scream at your tv for Kellen Moore to call that play that worked so well last week…and then it never happens. Because not every team has the same strengths and weaknesses. And individual matchups are often what dictates the play calls.

And honestly IMO play-calling is one of the most overrated parts of football. Sure it’s important, but sometimes the OC has made a great play call but the players didn’t execute it very well. Maybe a key block was missed or someone ran the wrong route.

Play-calling is about 25-50% of the success we see on Sunday. The rest is film study, preparation, and execution. And that coupled with great execution against the right matchups is what leads to success.

So you are of the opinion then that when the opposing team knows your play before the snap that its the players fault for not executing it?

 

[Diehardblues]

How about in-game adjustments. He never seems to do or be able to make them.
Maybe he does and we don't see it as much, or the defenses made their adjustments to counter him. Hard to say.

Now last season the 1st 5 or 6 games, even the announcers and media was saying he put together some great game plans. And he did.
Then injuries and such, later on did not seem to go as well.
So was it more on Kellen, or more on the players.

Sometimes good / great players make average coaches look good / great.

I tend to lean it’s more on the talent making the coaching look good or bad.

Coaching can help you overcome better teams or can cost you against lesser teams but we seem more commonly to beat the teams we should and lose to who we should so that would be more on the talent or lack of than the coaching.

 

[Diehardblues]

So you are of the opinion then that when the opposing team knows your play before the snap that its the players fault for not executing it?

Pretty much. Great or more talented teams can force their will. In our glory eras everyone pretty well knew what we were going to run, they just couldn’t stop it.

 

[jazzcat22]

So then why doesn't the SB winning 20 plus year offensive minded coach/playcaller get involved again?

The offseason report was he supposedly was 1. gonna fix penalties
2. Gonna be more involved in the offense

You still never respond when I ask this stuff.
Is the whole Thou shalt not touch Kellen's Offense from Coach Jerry the reason? Or has been reported his unfamiliarity with play book terminology?

Heck, I could call time outs and let Bones, Dan and Kellen run the show for 5 million a year.

Again I'll say it.
If the offense struggles with regards to playcalling it is the head coaches job to elbow wonderkid outta the way and take charge. Period.

Your double standard creed comes full circle when you apply 2 different sets of standards to the OC and HC.

This is not the first time I've mentioned this.

BS, I respond to you, and you are the one with the double standards. Maybe your tirades are not worth responding to. Because I can't post anything without you coming at me with your nonsense.

 

[75boyz]

BS, I respond to you, and you are the one with the double standards. Maybe your tirades are not worth responding to. Because I can't post anything without you coming at me with your nonsense.

If you can refute in exact terms anything I just posted I'm all ears.

 

[jazzcat22]

If you can refute in exact terms anything I just posted I'm all ears.

How do you or myself or anyone else knows, or does not know how involved he is.
Are you in the team meetings, on the sidelines, have some secret audio device listening in.

Still lack of in game adjustment falls back to Moore. Many coaches allow their coaches to coach the game. Then they discuss it during the week as what he should or should not do.
There is the play clock to consider. HC can't always, say, hey let's not do that, let's do this. Unless they call a time out to discuss it. A lot going on that we do not know about.

 

[phildadon86]

Pretty much. Great or more talented teams can force their will. In our glory eras everyone pretty well knew what we were going to run, they just couldn’t stop it.

You cant compare a non salary cap era to todays NFL. The reason the Cowboys imposed their will is because they were supremely talented to almost every other team in the NFL at the time. There is a lot more parity in 2022. If the teams are evenly matched. The other team knowing what play you are running pre-snap is a HUGE advantage. Massive actually. Why did Garrett led teams never go anywhere with the "beat the guy in front of you" mantra? That 2014 team was very talented.

 

[CowboyFrog]

Yep, but my point is even more simple.
If we don't know if the play that is carried out came from the OC or was an audibiled one by the QB...

Then it's really hard to place blame and determine execution success or failure of that play.

So if your an OC/HC and your getting heat about the offense over the last 8 games...and you know its because your QB is changing the plays and its not working..No person in thier right mind would say "Oh well I just have to take it" so in either scenario the coach needs to address the problem. Nothing shows Dak and Moore are at odds behind closed doors...The owner has not been shy about what he wants in the O scheme, if your theory is Dak is the one changing it dont you think this owner would address it? Again I could see it if anything at all pointed to Dak doing things that this Coaching staff doesnt like but for 8 games and no hint of problems there with the owner saying the same thing through the off season..doesnt add up.

 

[jazzcat22]

I tend to lean it’s more on the talent making the coaching look good or bad.

Coaching can help you overcome better teams or can cost you against lesser teams but we seem more commonly to beat the teams we should and lose to who we should so that would be more on the talent or lack of than the coaching.

I tend to believe it is players more than coaches also.
I think a HC said that years ago, I forgot who said it. That the players made him look good. As he was trying to be humble.

 

[75boyz]

How do you or myself or anyone else knows, or does not know how involved he is.
Are you in the team meetings, on the sidelines, have some secret audio device listening in.

Still lack of in game adjustment falls back to Moore. Many coaches allow their coaches to coach the game. Then they discuss it during the week as what he should or should not do.
There is the play clock to consider. HC can't always, say, hey let's not do that, let's do this. Unless they call a time out to discuss it. A lot going on that we do not know about.

Fair enough man. I hold the head coach far more accountable based on the visible evidence I've seen and the reports that been made public. I'm not the biggest McCarthy fan so my opinion can be somewhat tainted by that.
I have no problem accepting your opinion. My opinion on head coach accountability is a strong one and my perception is there's a lack of actual involvement.
But as you said, without my actual being there I can neither confirm nor deny his actual gameday input.
So again, fair enough.

 

[jazzcat22]

Fair enough man. I hold the head coach far more accountable based on the visible evidence I've seen and the reports that been made public. I'm not the biggest McCarthy fan so my opinion can be somewhat tainted by that.
I have no problem accepting your opinion. My perception of head coach accountability is a strong one and my perception is there's a lack of actual involvement.
But as you said, without my actual being there I can neither confirm nor deny his actual gameday input.
So again, fair enough.

The HC should always be held accountable, I agree with that.
Rather he just coaches or is a game manager and lets his coaches coach, or he at times gets involved.

I don't know the stats, as to how many HC's are let go in mid season as opposed to a OC or DC. That would be interesting, but I bet it is more HC's
Didn't Dallas fire their OL coach mid season not too long ago?

 

[RonnieT24]

If we are consistently whooping crappy teams being beaten by better teams then that’s more on our talent than coaching .

If we were being upset consistently then I’d be more apt to blame coaching .

It's fair to believe that.. however the reason I cite coaching is because the reason we beat crappy team is because we have some superhuman players who overcome crappy play calling. When we face teams that are of near the same talent level or better it's up to the coaches to put us over the top. That's where we have been falling down.. again just my opinion.. But we have had a consensus top 5 offensive line in football for the better part of the last decade.. yet we have only been able to consistently run the ball when we have had superhuman running backs. Murray his last two seasons, Zeke his first three.. other than those years, our running game has been mostly unreliable.. which makes zero sense when you have a great offensive line. Not saying the current line is great.. but if you watch other teams you can see they are certainly no worse than average and better than most.

 

[RonnieT24]

You cant compare a non salary cap era to todays NFL. The reason the Cowboys imposed their will is because they were supremely talented to almost every other team in the NFL at the time. There is a lot more parity in 2022. If the teams are evenly matched. The other team knowing what play you are running pre-snap is a HUGE advantage. Massive actually. Why did Garrett led teams never go anywhere with the "beat the guy in front of you" mantra? That 2014 team was very talented.

Exactly.. the talent differential between NFL teams is paper thin. No matter what the talking heads try to tell you, the best team will get boat raced by the worst team if they don't bring it. We've seen it a thousand times.. Coaching matters.. Just look at the defense that went from one of the worst in NFL history under Nolan to a top 11 defense knocking on the door of top 5 under Quinn.

 

[Diehardblues]

It's fair to believe that.. however the reason I cite coaching is because the reason we beat crappy team is because we have some superhuman players who overcome crappy play calling. When we face teams that are of near the same talent level or better it's up to the coaches to put us over the top. That's where we have been falling down.. again just my opinion.. But we have had a consensus top 5 offensive line in football for the better part of the last decade.. yet we have only been able to consistently run the ball when we have had superhuman running backs. Murray his last two seasons, Zeke his first three.. other than those years, our running game has been mostly unreliable.. which makes zero sense when you have a great offensive line. Not saying the current line is great.. but if you watch other teams you can see they are certainly no worse than average and better than most.

So , coaching doesn’t get credit for winning, only blame for losing?

And for the record the one full season we didn’t have a top RB , McFadden , our backup part of the RB by committee in 2015 he had over a 1,000 yards. Pretty good considering for an aging veteran who didn’t even start the entire year. I’d give credit to our OL.

And I’d also argue considering Murray didn’t do much after he left Dallas it would appear it was much more about our OL.

I’d also argue our OL was much greater when we had Frederick at C. Once we lost him and Tyron begun his injury spree not having a full season since 2015 I’d say our OL wasn’t as great but it kept putting some good numbers when Zeke has played an entire season healthy or not been suspended .

Now our OL is just a shell of its former self . No longer anywhere near what it once was . And probably wasn’t as close last year either. It’s been in a steady decline in recent years . And our rushing numbers have reflected as such along with the other contributing factors .

 

[RonnieT24]

So , coaching doesn’t get credit for winning, only blame for losing?

Just ask yourself.. how many times over the past 10 years have you come out of a game thinking "we really outcoached the other team today.."

And for the record the one full season we didn’t have a top RB , McFadden , our backup part of the RB by committee in 2015 he had over a 1,000 yards. Pretty good considering for an aging veteran who didn’t even start the entire year. I’d give credit to our OL.

And I’d also argue considering Murray didn’t do much after he left Dallas it would appear it was much more about our OL.

Murray flopped in Philly.. mainly because he was a horrible fit for Chip Kelly's shotgun all the time offense.. much the same way Zeke is with Moore's.. Him putting up 1200+ yards in Tennessee while splitting time with Henry pretty much validates his talents to me.

I’d also argue our OL was much greater when we had Frederick at C. Once we lost him and Tyron begun his injury spree not having a full season since 2015 I’d say our OL wasn’t as great but it kept putting some good numbers when Zeke has played an entire season healthy or not been suspended .

Now our OL is just a shell of its former self . No longer anywhere near what it once was . And probably wasn’t as close last year either. It’s been in a steady decline in recent years . And our rushing numbers have reflected as such along with the other contributing factors .

No the line is definitely nowhere near as good as it once was. We can all see that.. But how much of that decline can we attribute to coaching.. Did you see the toss play that got blown up because Zack Martin couldn't get out to head off the DE. That same play got blown up I think 5 of the 6 times we ran it.. 3 with Zeke and 3 with Pollard. The only time it worked was the one time we blocked it and Pollard scooted through for the long gain. Why are we calling a play that loses yards 80% of the time? Because we popped it once for a big one? That's coaching.. I would wager our defense blows that play up in practice too. But the point really is that we only blocked it correctly once. If you wanna tell me Matt Farniok isn't reliable then I won't fight you.. But if Zack Martin can't execute your play then it's a bad play design..

 

[75boyz]

So if your an OC/HC and your getting heat about the offense over the last 8 games...and you know its because your QB is changing the plays and its not working..No person in thier right mind would say "Oh well I just have to take it" so in either scenario the coach needs to address the problem. Nothing shows Dak and Moore are at odds behind closed doors...The owner has not been shy about what he wants in the O scheme, if your theory is Dak is the one changing it dont you think this owner would address it? Again I could see it if anything at all pointed to Dak doing things that this Coaching staff doesnt like but for 8 games and no hint of problems there with the owner saying the same thing through the off season..doesnt add up.

Whether Moore wants to publicly agree with or refute that almost half of his run calls are being audibled out of may be as simple as Moore not wanting to throw anybody under the bus publicly.
When McCheese did his mid week press conference leading up to the Bengals game he alluded to the needed growth of his OC and the running game all the while not even knowing Moore's playbook terminology.
Whereas you have stated to me in the past of so much what to believe and what not to believe, I'll chalk this one up to Kellen being the bigger man and not publicly pointing any fingers. All the while McCarthy was readying his scapegoat excuse on his OC while not even knowing if a run or pass was called in the first place, lol.
No biggie.
Agree to disagree.

It happens.

 

[Diehardblues]

Just ask yourself.. how many times over the past 10 years have you come out of a game thinking "we really outcoached the other team today.."





Murray flopped in Philly.. mainly because he was a horrible fit for Chip Kelly's shotgun all the time offense.. much the same way Zeke is with Moore's.. Him putting up 1200+ yards in Tennessee while splitting time with Henry pretty much validates his talents to me.



No the line is definitely nowhere near as good as it once was. We can all see that.. But how much of that decline can we attribute to coaching.. Did you see the toss play that got blown up because Zack Martin couldn't get out to head off the DE. That same play got blown up I think 5 of the 6 times we ran it.. 3 with Zeke and 3 with Pollard. The only time it worked was the one time we blocked it and Pollard scooted through for the long gain. Why are we calling a play that loses yards 80% of the time? Because we popped it once for a big one? That's coaching.. I would wager our defense blows that play up in practice too. But the point really is that we only blocked it correctly once. If you wanna tell me Matt Farniok isn't reliable then I won't fight you.. But if Zack Martin can't execute your play then it's a bad play design..

I’d argue we out coached the Bengals . But the bigger point I was making is we shouldn’t really be dependent on out coaching the other side . Our focus should be putting our guys in the best position for success. Ultimately it’s up to the players to make the plays.

That’s really not as big part of the game as out executing and out performing them . Basically. I don’t really expect to beat teams that are more talented or better teams than us.

There’s a reason teams are underdogs or there are upsets. Cause we don’t expect them to win.